Niblo
2024 Supporter
Many thanks, Hawkman. You're very kind.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Describing Evangelicals
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Niblo
2024 Supporter
Greetings, Wondering.
I trust you are well.
Just to remind ourselves of the verses in question:
‘Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.’ (John 3: 1-5).
You write:
‘I must say that I know the CC believes the water in John 3:5 is referring to baptism, but I just can't bring myself to accepting this...I believe it means the water of natural birth - Jesus compares it to the spiritual birth. Thus BORN AGAIN. Nicodemus even asks how a person could return to the mother's womb a second time. Ezekiel 36:25 is one of the many times the bible mentions baptism by water in both the OT and NT and this is the reason the CC believes John is referring to water baptism in John 3:5.’
And not just the CC!
For Albert Barnes, the words ‘by water’ mean just that; and he reminds us that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) identifies baptism as: ‘An ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit.’
According to Barnes, Yeshua is: ‘Affirming that (baptism) was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church; that it was the appropriate mode of making a profession of religion; and that a man who neglected this, when the duty was made known to him, neglected a plain command of God.’
He adds:
‘But, lest Nicodemus should suppose that this was all that was meant, he added that it was necessary that he should “be born of the Spirit” also.
‘By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence.’ (‘Barnes On The New Testament: Albert Barnes’ Notes On The Whole Bible’).
Charles Spurgeon, on the other hand, is having none of this. He writes:
‘We understand the passage to mean, “Water, that is, the Spirit;” but it may refer to the purifying influence of the Word as symbolized by water. I do not think that baptism is referred to here at all.
‘Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. If the water here signifies baptism, - mark you, if it does, - then, observe, that there is no entering into the kingdom without it. I do not think that baptism is here intended at all, but the purifying influence of the Word of God symbolized by water.
‘We might read the verse “Except a man be born of water, even of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” There is a great change of character necessary for entrance into the kingdom; seeing it is one thing, entering into it is another matter; yet one cannot even see the kingdom of God without being born again, or born from above.’ (‘Spurgeon's Commentary On The Bible: Spurgeon's Bible Commentaries’).
The Beloved knows best!
Continued:
Niblo
2024 Supporter
In Post 33 you write:
‘Geisler and Ehrman are top scholars, I believe Ehrman is one of the top NT scholar in the world.’
It’s been said that the greatness of a man can be measured by his enemies. In Ehrman’s case, by his opponents:
‘Until the publication in 2012 of Bart D. Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, scholars who have denied the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth have for the most part been answered only by religious apologists, not genuine historians or biblical scholars.
‘Everything changed, however, when the Mythicist position was formally engaged by Professor Bart D. Ehrman, the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Ehrman arguably is one of the most famous and professionally respected New Testament scholars in America. In his Did Jesus Exist?, specific Mythicists are named and their works are cited and criticized. This is a milestone in the history of Historical-Jesus studies and it lends hope that before too long a genuine Science of Christian Origins will be able to supplant Historical-Jesus Studies in the world of secular scholarship."
‘Bart Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth may very well prove to be the last book written by an undisputedly first-rank scholar of the New Testament attempting to prove the existence of a Jesus specifically of Nazareth.’ (from ‘Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth’ by Richard Carrier Ph.D., D.M. Murdock, René Salm, Earl Doherty, David Fitzgerald, Robert M. Price Ph.D., Frank R. Zindler’).
As for Ehrman’s loss of faith; let him speak for himself:
If there is an all-powerful and loving God in this world, why is there so much excruciating pain and unspeakable suffering? The problem of suffering has haunted me for a very long time. It was what made me begin to think about religion when I was young, and it was what led me to question my faith when I was older. Ultimately, it was the reason I lost my faith.’ (‘God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer’).
Peace and blessings.
‘Geisler and Ehrman are top scholars, I believe Ehrman is one of the top NT scholar in the world.’
It’s been said that the greatness of a man can be measured by his enemies. In Ehrman’s case, by his opponents:
‘Until the publication in 2012 of Bart D. Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, scholars who have denied the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth have for the most part been answered only by religious apologists, not genuine historians or biblical scholars.
‘Everything changed, however, when the Mythicist position was formally engaged by Professor Bart D. Ehrman, the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Ehrman arguably is one of the most famous and professionally respected New Testament scholars in America. In his Did Jesus Exist?, specific Mythicists are named and their works are cited and criticized. This is a milestone in the history of Historical-Jesus studies and it lends hope that before too long a genuine Science of Christian Origins will be able to supplant Historical-Jesus Studies in the world of secular scholarship."
‘Bart Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth may very well prove to be the last book written by an undisputedly first-rank scholar of the New Testament attempting to prove the existence of a Jesus specifically of Nazareth.’ (from ‘Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth’ by Richard Carrier Ph.D., D.M. Murdock, René Salm, Earl Doherty, David Fitzgerald, Robert M. Price Ph.D., Frank R. Zindler’).
As for Ehrman’s loss of faith; let him speak for himself:
If there is an all-powerful and loving God in this world, why is there so much excruciating pain and unspeakable suffering? The problem of suffering has haunted me for a very long time. It was what made me begin to think about religion when I was young, and it was what led me to question my faith when I was older. Ultimately, it was the reason I lost my faith.’ (‘God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer’).
Peace and blessings.
Niblo
2024 Supporter
Who can tell. Perhaps they would take them for the honest opinions of a Mississippi redneck....with or without the apparent offal and squamata fixation! (Post 38)
Any time baptism is mentioned feller ought to have first read:
https://www.truthmagazine.com/what-does-it-mean-to-baptize
The teaching of subjects by immersion is best.
Not just a lite overview but in depth.
Fathers baptism at John the Baptist - repent confessing sins.
Ok now you need a solution to the sins you discovered.
Jesus baptism. One name under heaven that is the solution to have eternal life. Learn all you can. Invite him in.
Holy Spirit and Fire. Empowerment for service. Seek the higher gifts. The Holy Spirit decides.
Just because some mess up, that does not mean all are messed up. No single ceremony will get it all done. In-depth immersion is needed in each area. If the person just understands repentance, just teach that first.
eddif
https://www.truthmagazine.com/what-does-it-mean-to-baptize
The teaching of subjects by immersion is best.
Not just a lite overview but in depth.
Fathers baptism at John the Baptist - repent confessing sins.
Ok now you need a solution to the sins you discovered.
Jesus baptism. One name under heaven that is the solution to have eternal life. Learn all you can. Invite him in.
Holy Spirit and Fire. Empowerment for service. Seek the higher gifts. The Holy Spirit decides.
Just because some mess up, that does not mean all are messed up. No single ceremony will get it all done. In-depth immersion is needed in each area. If the person just understands repentance, just teach that first.
eddif
1 Corinthians 10:1 kjv
1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Let me see.
They were dry shod in the sea.
The cloud ?
Drinking from the struck rock
Must be a lot of symbolism here.
eddif
1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Let me see.
They were dry shod in the sea.
The cloud ?
Drinking from the struck rock
Must be a lot of symbolism here.
eddif
Actually Covid may help in all these theological discussions.Who can tell. Perhaps they would take them for the honest opinions of a Mississippi redneck....with or without the apparent offal and squamata fixation! (Post 38)
I was somewhat driven ( hopefully led ) by the differences in viewpoints. Human anatomy is being discussed more than any other time in my lifetime. Both theology and anatomy / phisology, strain my tedneck brain.
But
If we were made so high why do we have a physical immune system? ( before the fall )
Why do intricate systems try and preserve genetic purity in cell replication?
Why do kidneys have a snake on a pole?
Why does the cerebellum have a tree planted on either side of a river of spinal fluid?
If the thugs of Giof are clearly seen in what He has created, should not A&P help unwind the Word of God?
eddif
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What is giof?
As to the rest...we're part of the universe.
Everything matches and is similar.
Everything is made of either a straight line or a curve...
Even veggies have male and female designations,
And so on...
LOL. God - every once in a typing session I Mess up a word.
The parable of the sower is explained very specifically. The seed is the word of God. The Ground is mens hearts.
I am devastated. My favorite redneck area of intrest made common. LOL
So good I get to put on the 78 record that skips.
Mark 4:13 kjv
13. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Romans 1:20 kjv
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Luke 8:9 kjv
9. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10. And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
etc.
Parables concealed the hidden things of God from the multitudes.
Isaiah 6 may be about Isaiah, but more especially about Jesus and his use of parables.
Tradition says the people of the time were simple people and understood what Jesus was saying.
The disciples asked why he spoke in parables. ( So that hearing they might not hear.)
I admit I use symbolism.
Live and learn. Share with others what you learn before you die.
eddif
Niblo
2024 Supporter
Greetings, eddif.
Interesting points. Unfortunately, not my area of competence.
Humans, of course, are not alone in possessing an immune system. I believe it was Élie Metchnikoff who first discovered – in the early 1900s – that invertebrates also have an immune system. These are quite sophisticated, having – like those of vertebrates – cells that can digest pathogens (the process of phagocytosis); together with a mechanism to regulate the system; to tone it down, once it has done its work; so as to prevent it from attacking the host body.
Plants also possess an immune system, of course, but without mobile defender cells. For plants, each individual cell possesses the ability to initiate an immune response.
Bacteria possess the ability to withstand viral attacks, through a complex system involving gene editing (known as CRISPR - ‘clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic repeats’). Sounds grand.
I agree that a study of anatomy and physiology can lead to a greater understanding of the Beloved.
From the First Vatican Council:
‘(Against those denying natural theology). If anyone shall have said that the one true God, our Creator and our Lord, cannot be known with certitude by those things which have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema (‘Dogmatic Constitution Concerning the Catholic Faith’ - Denzinger 1806; my emphasis).
This declaration is linked to another, under the heading ‘Comprising the particular errors of our age, which are noted in consistorial Allocutions, in Encyclical and other Apostolic Letters of His Holiness, our Lord Pope Pius IX’:
‘The same Holy Mother Church holds and teaches that God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things; "for the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" (Rom. 1:20); nevertheless, it has pleased His wisdom and goodness to reveal Himself and the eternal decrees of His will to the human race in another and supernatural way, as the Apostle says: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by His Son" (Heb. I)’ (Denzinger 1785).
Father John A. Harden S.J. writes: ‘Immersed in the present climate of the scientific age, a believing Christian is pressed on two sides. The world in which one lives keeps asking for evidence, it wants to be shown that what the believer believes is not mere illusion but objectively true.
‘The rise of the scientific age introduced, in certain quarters, an extreme distrust of faith as anything but the remnant of an outdated mythology. By the time of Nietzsche’s classic work in 1895, The Antichrist, those who still believed in Christ and his message were considered intellectual morons.’ (‘The Catholic Catechism: A Contemporary Catechism of the Teachings of the Catholic Church’).
According to Harden, many Christians – including Catholics – ‘embarrassed by this avalanche of criticism’ opted for a faith that was not based on knowledge. Catholics who subscribed to this view became known as ‘Modernists’. Harden claims that these people: ‘Began with the premise that the human mind is entirely restricted to phenomena, the external, sensible properties of things. It has neither the right nor the power to transgress these limits. Consequently, God cannot be the object of true knowledge. He cannot be known by either natural or supernatural revelation.’ He argues that the First Vatican Council anticipated the crisis (of Modernism) by: ‘Analyzing the nature of faith, not so much as a virtue but as an act of responsive obedience to God’s revelation.’ (Ibid.)
The Council offered the following definition of faith:
‘Since man is wholly dependent on God as his Creator and Lord, and since created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are bound by faith to give full obedience of intellect and will to God who reveals (Canon I). But the Catholic Church professes that this faith, which "is the beginning of human salvation", is a supernatural virtue by which we, with the aid and inspiration of the grace of God, believe that the things revealed by Him are true, not because the intrinsic truth of the revealed things has been perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived (Canon 2).’ (Denzinger 1789).
The Council went further – very much further – when it declared that:
‘By divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed.’ (Denzinger 1792).
The Modernist notion that the claims of science can be held as true, even when these are opposed to revealed doctrine, and that the Church is powerless to condemn such claims, meets this condemnation:
‘If anyone shall have said that the human sciences should be treated with such liberty that their assertions, although opposed to revealed doctrine, can be retained as true, and cannot be proscribed by the Church: let him be anathema.’ (Denzinger 1817.’)
The Modernist notion that science can overturn – or cause to be modified – defined dogma meets this condemnation:
‘If anyone shall have said that it is possible that to the dogmas declared by the Church a meaning must sometimes be attributed according to the progress of science, different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.’ (Denzinger 1818).
The Council continues:
‘And so, fulfilling the obligation of Our supreme pastoral office, by the incarnation of Jesus Christ, We beseech all the faithful of Christ, but especially those who have charge of, or who perform the duty of teaching; and in fact, by the authority of Our same God and Saviour, We command that they bring their zeal and labour to arrest and banish these errors from Holy Church, and to extend the light of a most pure faith.’ (Denzinger 1819).
But I digress; as the bride said, when quitting the nuptial bed in order to bake a cake.
Peace.
Well? If this were true, would not the disciples have said:
Jesus, we do not even have to ask what the parable of the sower means. Human reason is all it takes to know about God. All the multitude got the meaning too.
James 1:5 kjv
5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
The knowledge is in nature, but it seems you ask God to understand. So that hearing they hear not.
The immune system must be shut down or you get lupus.
Or
Instead of trying to help a brother you destroy them.
eddif
Niblo
2024 Supporter
Greetings, eddif.
I wrote:
‘The same Holy Mother Church holds and teaches that God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things…….’ (First Vatican Council: Session 3: Article 1785 - Denzinger).
You quote only this:
‘……by the natural light of human reason’; and then write:
‘Well? If this were true, would not the disciples have said: Jesus, we do not even have to ask what the parable of the sower means. Human reason is all it takes to know about God. All the multitude got the meaning too.’
It is not the best use of your time to distort a dogma of the Church, and then to comment on that distortion as though it were the whole truth.
The Church teaches that the Beloved’s existence can be known ‘with certitude’ from a study of ‘created things.’
In so doing, she is echoing the Psalmist, who writes:
‘The heavens declare the glory of God, the vault of heaven proclaims his handiwork; day discourses of it to day, night to night hands on the knowledge. No utterance at all, no speech, no sound that anyone can hear; yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their message to the ends of the world.’ (Psalm 19:1-4).
Charles H. Spurgeon writes, of verse 1:
‘The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork. So much is this the case that it has been well said that “an undevout astronomer is mad.” There are such traces of the Infinite and the Omnipotent in the stars, and especially the more thoroughly they are studied, and the science of mathematics is brought to bear upon them, in order, in some degree, to guess at the incalculable distances and mighty weights of the starry orbs, that a man must perceive in them traces of the divine handiwork if he is only willing to do so’
And of verse 2:
‘Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. Every day speaks to the following one, even as the day that went before it spoke to it, and each day has its own message. Its history is an echo of the voice of God, and if man had but ears to hear, he would perceive that the things which happen from day to day proclaim the presence and power "of God. And even night, with her impressive silence, reveals the Most High in the solemn hush and stillness. In the great primeval forests, the winds seem, with songs without words, to declare the presence of the Most High. There is something there, in the stillness of the night, as weird-like and so solemn, which has made unbelief retreat, and caused faith to lift up her eye, and see more in the heavens at night than she had seen by day: “Night unto night sheweth knowledge.”"
And of verses 3 and 4:
‘There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. Though nature does not speak, yet its words go to the ends of the earth; and, silently, they sing the praises of God. To the inner ears of an enlightened man, there is a measure of spiritual teaching ever going on.’ (Spurgeon's Commentary On The Bible’).
Having confirmed the Beloved’s existence, Article 1785 goes on:
‘……nevertheless, it has pleased His wisdom and goodness to reveal Himself and the eternal decrees of His will to the human race in another and supernatural way, as the Apostle says: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by His Son" (Heb. I)’ (My emphasis).
The Church confirms that the Beloved reveals Himself – par excellence – through revelation. Why? Because He has conferred on humankind a supernatural destiny:
‘Indeed, it must be attributed to this divine revelation that those things, which in divine things are impenetrable to human reason by itself, can, even in this present condition of the human race, be known readily by all with firm certitude and with no admixture of error!
‘Nevertheless, it is not for this reason that revelation is said to be absolutely necessary, but because God in His infinite goodness has ordained man for a supernatural end, to participation, namely, in the divine goods which altogether surpass the understanding of the human mind, since "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love Him" – 1 Cor. 2:9.’ (Denzinger; Article 1786; my emphasis).
Fr John Harden SJ writes:
‘Revelation in Judaeo-Christianity refers to God’s supernatural manifestation of himself through the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Law, and through Jesus Christ in the New Covenant…….
‘Why should God have shared with us those divine treasures which totally transcend the understanding of the human mind? He did so to offer us the means of reaching our supernatural destiny. Having eternally chosen to make us heirs of heaven and partakers in his own happiness, he gave us the resources for arriving there.’ (‘The Catholic Catechism’; my emphasis).
In short, a study of created things is sufficient to confirm that the Beloved exists. Revelation explains His very nature; and the relationship He desires to enjoy with each of us.
I wrote:
‘The same Holy Mother Church holds and teaches that God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things…….’ (First Vatican Council: Session 3: Article 1785 - Denzinger).
You quote only this:
‘……by the natural light of human reason’; and then write:
‘Well? If this were true, would not the disciples have said: Jesus, we do not even have to ask what the parable of the sower means. Human reason is all it takes to know about God. All the multitude got the meaning too.’
It is not the best use of your time to distort a dogma of the Church, and then to comment on that distortion as though it were the whole truth.
The Church teaches that the Beloved’s existence can be known ‘with certitude’ from a study of ‘created things.’
In so doing, she is echoing the Psalmist, who writes:
‘The heavens declare the glory of God, the vault of heaven proclaims his handiwork; day discourses of it to day, night to night hands on the knowledge. No utterance at all, no speech, no sound that anyone can hear; yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their message to the ends of the world.’ (Psalm 19:1-4).
Charles H. Spurgeon writes, of verse 1:
‘The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork. So much is this the case that it has been well said that “an undevout astronomer is mad.” There are such traces of the Infinite and the Omnipotent in the stars, and especially the more thoroughly they are studied, and the science of mathematics is brought to bear upon them, in order, in some degree, to guess at the incalculable distances and mighty weights of the starry orbs, that a man must perceive in them traces of the divine handiwork if he is only willing to do so’
And of verse 2:
‘Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. Every day speaks to the following one, even as the day that went before it spoke to it, and each day has its own message. Its history is an echo of the voice of God, and if man had but ears to hear, he would perceive that the things which happen from day to day proclaim the presence and power "of God. And even night, with her impressive silence, reveals the Most High in the solemn hush and stillness. In the great primeval forests, the winds seem, with songs without words, to declare the presence of the Most High. There is something there, in the stillness of the night, as weird-like and so solemn, which has made unbelief retreat, and caused faith to lift up her eye, and see more in the heavens at night than she had seen by day: “Night unto night sheweth knowledge.”"
And of verses 3 and 4:
‘There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. Though nature does not speak, yet its words go to the ends of the earth; and, silently, they sing the praises of God. To the inner ears of an enlightened man, there is a measure of spiritual teaching ever going on.’ (Spurgeon's Commentary On The Bible’).
Having confirmed the Beloved’s existence, Article 1785 goes on:
‘……nevertheless, it has pleased His wisdom and goodness to reveal Himself and the eternal decrees of His will to the human race in another and supernatural way, as the Apostle says: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by His Son" (Heb. I)’ (My emphasis).
The Church confirms that the Beloved reveals Himself – par excellence – through revelation. Why? Because He has conferred on humankind a supernatural destiny:
‘Indeed, it must be attributed to this divine revelation that those things, which in divine things are impenetrable to human reason by itself, can, even in this present condition of the human race, be known readily by all with firm certitude and with no admixture of error!
‘Nevertheless, it is not for this reason that revelation is said to be absolutely necessary, but because God in His infinite goodness has ordained man for a supernatural end, to participation, namely, in the divine goods which altogether surpass the understanding of the human mind, since "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love Him" – 1 Cor. 2:9.’ (Denzinger; Article 1786; my emphasis).
Fr John Harden SJ writes:
‘Revelation in Judaeo-Christianity refers to God’s supernatural manifestation of himself through the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Law, and through Jesus Christ in the New Covenant…….
‘Why should God have shared with us those divine treasures which totally transcend the understanding of the human mind? He did so to offer us the means of reaching our supernatural destiny. Having eternally chosen to make us heirs of heaven and partakers in his own happiness, he gave us the resources for arriving there.’ (‘The Catholic Catechism’; my emphasis).
In short, a study of created things is sufficient to confirm that the Beloved exists. Revelation explains His very nature; and the relationship He desires to enjoy with each of us.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I love your posts.
:nod
Niblo,
Excellent explanation. I was reading D A Carson's commentary on The Gospel According to John (IVP UK/Eerdmans USA 1991) and he wrote that "born of water and the Spirit" has 3 factors in the interpretation: (1) The expression is parallel to "from above" (v. 3) and so only one birth is in view. (2) The preposition "of" governs both "water and spirit." There is a conceptual unity, standing as a "water-soul source." (3) "Jesus berates Nicodemus for not understanding these things in his role as 'Israel's teacher' (v. 10), a senior 'professor' of the Scriptures and this in turn suggests we must turn to what Christians call the Old Testament to begin to discern what Jesus had in mind" (p. 194).
Pointers in the OT are in Ex 4:22; Deut 32:6; Hos 11:1. More important background is in Gen 2:7; 6:3; Job 34:14; Joel 2:28; Isa 32:25-30; 44:3; Ezek 39:29.
Oz
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Niblo
2024 Supporter
That’s very kind of you, Wondering. Some might call you a lass who is easily pleased. I, of course, would never say such a thing.
.Blessings
Niblo
2024 Supporter
Many thanks, Oz. You’re very kind.
Your post deserves close attention; and I’m working on it. Unfortunately, other – work-based – stuff is pressing, so please be patient. In šāʾ Allāh, I will come back by the weekend.
Blessings.
Niblo
2024 Supporter
Good afternoon, Oz.
I trust you are well. Sorry for this delayed reply.
Nicholas Merlino writes:
‘Among modern Christians today, the Gospel of John continues to be the center stage of both memorization mastery and blinding confusion.’ (‘Teaching Nicodemus: A Biblical Exposition of John Chapter Three’).
The words ‘blinding confusion’ might be a wee bit harsh.
According to Carson, the conversation between Nicodemus and Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) has generated – if not confusion – then a ‘host of interpretations’.
The interpretation favored by Carson is that which sees the words ‘born of water and the Spirit’ as a ‘conceptual unity’; as confirmation of a ‘water-spirit source that stands as the origin of (human) regeneration.’
He writes:
‘In short, born of water and spirit signals a new begetting, a new birth that cleanses and renews, the eschatological cleansing and renewal promised by the Old Testament prophets.’
‘If we take the Gospel records seriously, we must conclude that Jesus sometimes proclaimed truth the full significance and application of which could be fully appreciated and experienced only after he had risen from the dead. John 3 falls under this category.
‘When John wrote this, Christian baptism had been practiced for several decades (which was of course not the case when Jesus spoke with Nicodemus). If (and it is a quite uncertain ‘if’) the Evangelist expected his readers to detect some secondary allusion to Christian baptism in v. 5, the thrust of the passage treats such an allusion quite distantly.
‘What is emphasized is the need for radical transformation, the fulfilment of Old Testament promises anticipating the outpouring of the Spirit, and not a particular rite. If baptism is associated in the readers’ minds with entrance into the Christian faith, and therefore with new birth, then they are being told in the strongest terms that it is the new birth itself that is essential, not the rite.’ (‘The Gospel According to John - Pillar New Testament Commentary; my emphasis).
We know that the disciples practiced baptism during the course of Yeshua’s ministry. They did so because the Jews regarded baptism as ‘not merely for the purpose of expiating a special transgression, as is the case chiefly in the violation of the so-called Levitical laws of purity; but (as the means) to form a part of holy living and to prepare for the attainment of a closer communion with God.’ (‘Jewish Encyclopedia – 1906 Edition’; my emphasis).
Yeshua would have encouraged this practice, mindful of the fact that he was sent to rescue ‘the lost sheep of Israel’ (Matthew 15:24); and – perhaps – of the words of Isaiah:
‘Your hands are covered with blood, wash, make yourselves clean. Take your wrong-doing out of my sight. Cease to do evil. Learn to do good, search for justice, help the oppressed, be just to the orphan, plead for the widow. “Come now, let us talk this over”, says Yahweh. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing to obey, you shall eat the good things of the earth. But if you persist in rebellion, the sword shall eat you instead.” The mouth of Yahweh has spoken.’ (‘Isaiah 1:16-20’).
I love the words: ‘Come now, let us talk this over.’
That the Beloved is wanting a one-to-one with each of us; wanting to give each of us an assurance that, no matter our scarlet our sins, His forgiveness is there for all who ask of it; and who strive for ‘metanoia’ – for a ‘radical transformation’ in their hearts and minds, in the way they think and act – and who truly mean it when they say ‘Your Will be done’, is amazing - and humbling - beyond words.
Blessings.