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Destroying the guilty with the innocent

Classik

Member
Destroying the guilty with the innocent

Noah could not find a righteous man - Sodom and Gomorah would have been saved. They had to be destroyed because there was no righteous man (save for those that God found to be good who escaped)

So I ask, those who perish today, the innocent people and Christians who die with the unrighteous...are they being punished by God or by the enemy.
 
We can't judge that. They may or may not really be righteous. And if I remember correctly, Isaiah talks about the righteous man who dies before his time because God has purposely taken him away to be spared the judgment he is going to carry out in the earth.
 
thanks, Jethro. Is that really the case?

Are all deaths of HIM?
Classik,
I don't know you as God does but that question does whisper, just a bit of one's faith in God. God is omnipotent or He is not God the Creator and the answer, simply put reads, He Is or in the first person, I Am. the textual proofs for those that need them are found in the Book of Job, the Exodus and through out the rest of the scriptures.

AS much as most of the people inside the Church rolls dislike it, there is nothing that happens on the Earth that is not either directly controlled by God or else it is permitted because of His permissive will. God is in control!
 
That's a complex question. Maybe sometimes?

Innocent people have always died in unfortunate ways and events. That's the same both in Biblical times and now.
That's what the gospel is all about--the righteous dying unjustly for the unrighteous.
Classik,
I don't know you as God does but that question does whisper, just a bit of one's faith in God. God is omnipotent or He is not God the Creator and the answer, simply put reads, He Is or in the first person, I Am. the textual proofs for those that need them are found in the Book of Job, the Exodus and through out the rest of the scriptures.

AS much as most of the people inside the Church rolls dislike it, there is nothing that happens on the Earth that is not either directly controlled by God or else it is permitted because of His permissive will. God is in control!
This is why I detest the bantering about who does evil in the world--God or satan. Evil can't so much as bat an eyelash 'cept that God has found some useful purpose in it.
 
Here is a question to help answer your question I hope. Why did the Disciples die a martyrs death? Why do many even today die a martyrs death? Did they die because God punished them or did they die as they were in Gods will following the commandment in Matthew 28:18-20 and persecuted for the sake of Christ, Matthew 5:10. The righteous and unrighteous die side by side, but in the final judgement Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats/wheat from the tares, Matthew 13:30; 25:32, 33.
 
Reading a lot of shocking things here. The Word though is final authority.

Matthew 10 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.

The word "WILL" is not found in any Greek text. Added by the translators. In context, two sparrows go for very little but we are much better than sparrows. Dead animals that fell to the ground were forbidden to eat, and any dead animal that fell on something became unclean.
So, Jesus did not say Sparrows don't die apart from the will of God, Jesus said if God knows what is clean, unclean. Knows when a sparrow dies on earth though two of them go for so little, He will certainly know you have needs and even knows the number of hairs on your head.

We need to be careful of translations that ADD words. They can be useful, but we need to be aware of the difference. The verses show what God knows and keeps track of in the present.

YLT:
`Are not two sparrows sold for an assar? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father; and of you--even the hairs of the head are all numbered;
(Mat 10:29-30)

Classik,
I don't know you as God does but that question does whisper, just a bit of one's faith in God. God is omnipotent or He is not God the Creator and the answer, simply put reads, He Is or in the first person, I Am. the textual proofs for those that need them are found in the Book of Job, the Exodus and through out the rest of the scriptures.

AS much as most of the people inside the Church rolls dislike it, there is nothing that happens on the Earth that is not either directly controlled by God or else it is permitted because of His permissive will. God is in control!

This can be proven false, if we can prove it's possible for man to limit and hinder God. One has to ask if everything that God permits is some permissive will of his that he allows, or are these things totally against his will, and He is not happy about it at all.

Jesus prayed, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Does God have two separate wills, one for Earth and one for Heaven? According to Jesus He does not, neither would he pray this if God's will was always being done on Earth. The rule of God, (Kingdom of God in us) enforces his will on earth. It's clear His will is not always being done here.

The Lord said: Peter, come out, it's me.

Peter walks on the Water to the Lord, but notices the wind and waves. Being afraid he begins to sink. With the Lords command came the ability to come on the water.

But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
(Mat 14:30-31)

Peter's fault he sank, or the Lord's will?

Adam:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
(Gen 1:28-29)

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
(Gen 1:31)

Adam subdue the Earth? Nope, turned it over to Satan.
Adam keep his dominion over all things God told him? Nope, the earth grew thistles and some animals became hostile.
Was everything Good when God made it? Yep.
Did it stay good? Nope.

Is there anything in God's plan here for things to fall apart later? Nope.

Adam's fault........... Not God's predestined plan or will.

For by one mans sin death reigned........... Not!!! by God's sovereign plan and foreknowledge Death reigned.

Israel: God said:

And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
(Exo 12:25)

Is it the Lords plan, and will to give them the promised land? Yep.

did they get there as the Lord promised? Nope.

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
(Num 14:34-35)

Was it the Lords predestined will, foreknowledge, permissible will they disobeyed and disqualified themselves from what the Lord promised? Nope.

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
(Heb 4:6)


Lords will people live in unbelief? Nope.

How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
(Psa 78:40-41)

is it possible to stop and limit God with what He wants to do, and bless with? Yep.


I have about 20 more, including Job and that situation, but I hope I made the point.

That's what the gospel is all about--the righteous dying unjustly for the unrighteous.
This is why I detest the bantering about who does evil in the world--God or satan. Evil can't so much as bat an eyelash 'cept that God has found some useful purpose in it.

I could post a whole lot of scriptures here. There is nothing useful about evil.


But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
(Lam 3:32-33)

There is nothing in God's original and best plan, will, nature, that God uses evil for any useful purpose. Evil is the result of disobedience. and there are lots of things that happen that are extremely evil that God has no part of or plan. If Evil comes, it was not his will at all. Not his will the man slept with his fathers wife, not his will many disobey and are judged, not his will the evil slay the wicked. Evil is a byproduct of obedience to the devil.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body (die bodily) and at home with the Lord.

We all die at some point. God determines when.

ZERO, and I mean ZERO scripture support this. Word only, and you stay on track. I can give plenty of scriptures that will extend your life though.
There is a time every man shall die, we don't stay around here forever. We only die one time, not reincarnated, but once, then judgement.

One of many scriptures:


Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
(Eph 6:1-3)

Blessings.
 
Destroying the guilty with the innocent

Noah could not find a righteous man - Sodom and Gomorah would have been saved. They had to be destroyed because there was no righteous man (save for those that God found to be good who escaped)

So I ask, those who perish today, the innocent people and Christians who die with the unrighteous...are they being punished by God or by the enemy.
The scripture says, God destroys the blameless and the wicked. Job 9:22 NIV. We are given 120 years.

3 John 1:2 Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in every way and [that your body] may keep well, even as [I know] your soul keeps well and prospers.
 
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2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body (die bodily) and at home with the Lord.

We all die at some point. God determines when.

Proverbs 20:24Living Bible (TLB)
24 Since the Lord is directing our steps, why try to understand everything that happens along the way?
 
God does not destroy the guilty with the innocent as all have a season to be born and to die, Ecc 3:1, but it is the enemy (Satan) that have led many away from Gods righteousness and it is those who will be punished if they do not turn back to God.

God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God. As Satan was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and deceit as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God.

Because iniquity was found in him God cast him and those angels who chose to follow him out of his holy mountain and cast them all down to earth to be trampled of all nations. The only reference in scripture that denotes there being one third of the angels falling with Satan is in Revelation 12:9.
(Ref: Read Ezekiel Chapter 28 Prince of Tyrus – another dual referent)

Isaiah 14:12-15 Satan was cast down to the earth and became the ruler of iniquity over it before the creation of man which is why he had the power and right to give the kingdoms of the world over to Christ, Matthew 4:8,9. Satan corrupted the nations until there was no righteous person found except Noah. Even after Satan was cast down to the ground he still vowed that he would ascend back into heaven and take his place on the throne and be like the most high.
 
The scripture says, God destroys the blameless and the wicked. Job 9:22 NIV. We are given 120 years.

3 John 1:2Amplified Bible (AMP)
2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in every way and [that your body] may keep well, even as [I know] your soul keeps well and prospers.

No, the scripture records Job saying God destroys the wicked and blameless, job also said it profit a man nothing who serves God. God also was not very happy with Job for all his words without wisdom.

Watch the context of what your reading.

Job 34

37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
 
No, the scripture records Job saying God destroys the wicked and blameless, job also said it profit a man nothing who serves God. God also was not very happy with Job for all his words without wisdom.

Watch the context of what your reading.

Job 34

37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. Job 42:7 NIV
 
Ppp
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. Job 42:7 NIV
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. Job 42:7 NIV
After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. Job 42:7 NIV

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Yes job got right with the Lord admitting he spoke out of line. Saying things he did not understand. His two friends were next. ELIHU was the only one who spoke on God's behalf. Job humbled himself when God shows up and said the right things. Blaming God until the end was not the right thing, and hence God said job spoke with no wisdom. God had nothing to do with what happened to job. As Elihu pointed out
 
Reading a lot of shocking things here. The Word though is final authority.

The word "WILL" is not found in any Greek text. Added by the translators. In context, two sparrows go for very little but we are much better than sparrows. Dead animals that fell to the ground were forbidden to eat, and any dead animal that fell on something became unclean.
So, Jesus did not say Sparrows don't die apart from the will of God, Jesus said if God knows what is clean, unclean. Knows when a sparrow dies on earth though two of them go for so little, He will certainly know you have needs and even knows the number of hairs on your head.

We need to be careful of translations that ADD words. They can be useful, but we need to be aware of the difference. The verses show what God knows and keeps track of in the present.

YLT:
`Are not two sparrows sold for an assar? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father; and of you--even the hairs of the head are all numbered;
(Mat 10:29-30)

So then, it is your belief that God has very limited control or no control at all over who dies and who doesn't?
.
 
So then, it is your belief that God has very limited control or no control at all over who dies and who doesn't?
.

There is no scripture that says he does. I would need scripture to believe something. God did say we choose life or death, choose to be cursed or choose to be blessed. He records our choice as record in heaven and earth. Choices are made by words and or actions. Jesus said every Idle word we speak (dormant inactive words that come out of the abundance of our heart) we give an account as those bring forth evil or good.

So, God said we choose. We don't pass the choice over to God if he told us it's our responsibility.

These doctrines of foreknowledge and predestination come from the same spirit that is in the world, man does not like to take responsibility for anything. God's fault, not my fault.

God knows the end from the beginning is not a scripture, but a misquote from Isa, whom God said concerning his word that he will declare the end from what started his counsel will stand. If God speaks something it happens. If God speaks to people or a person then what happens is up to them as we see the promise removed from Eli, Saul, and Israel. Not God's fault, but man not agreeing with God. Hence Peter said though we personally have seen. We have a more sure word of prophecy.
 
Ppp



1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Yes job got right with the Lord admitting he spoke out of line. Saying things he did not understand. His two friends were next. ELIHU was the only one who spoke on God's behalf. Job humbled himself when God shows up and said the right things. Blaming God until the end was not the right thing, and hence God said job spoke with no wisdom. God had nothing to do with what happened to job. As Elihu pointed out
Many Christians including some pastors do not have understanding of scriptures. Until this revelation is revealed by the Holy Spirit we all will utter scriptures without wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. Having said that, Job uttered words about God without wisdom, understanding, and knowledge - too wonderful for his understanding. The bible says, "Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God." Job 1:22 NASB

The scripture says it like this, "The purpose of a test is to reveal what is in your heart". 2 Chronicles 32:31 NLT
All Christians will be tested...fans and disciples! If God allows it (pain & suffering) He has a purpose for it. Hebrews 12:25 NIV says, "See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. In other words draw near to Jesus when you are experiencing chaos in your life because He is talking to you. Ebloa is a prime example.
 
This can be proven false, if we can prove it's possible for man to limit and hinder God. One has to ask if everything that God permits is some permissive will of his that he allows, or are these things totally against his will, and He is not happy about it at all.

Jesus prayed, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Does God have two separate wills, one for Earth and one for Heaven? According to Jesus He does not, neither would he pray this if God's will was always being done on Earth. The rule of God, (Kingdom of God in us) enforces his will on earth. It's clear His will is not always being done here.

Sorry Mike but you're wrong. None of what you have drawn away from the full context of the Whole Word works within the Bible to set your case as true. What I said stands.
 
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