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Orion said:In what way does Satan hate me, and how should I know this?
Orion said:Well, . . . I really DON'T know that the being called "Satan" exists. True. As for the evidence of this being's feelings towards me, . . . I'm not sure.
Veritas said:Vault, it's your judgement call on these things. You may say the OT teachings are different than the NT (and so would anyone in the faith of Judiasm), but from the very start - from the Gospel proclaimed by Jesus, to the supporting works of the other writers of the NT, and to Christians onward to today it is presented and believed to be the same.
Even to the Hebrews Satan was seen as an accuser or an adversary. The semitic roots of the name Satan means "to be hostile" or "to accuse." Satan did act as an agent to test Job but it is also obvious from the text that Satan does not respect God.
We see Satan as an adversary to Israel in the parallel accounts of 1 Chronicles 21:1-8 and 2 Samuel 24:1 and the two perspectives give a good example of how Satan unwittingly serves God's purpose, just like in Job.
Satan is not only protrayed as an adversary to man (specifically Joshua) in Zecheriah 3:1-2 but also to God: Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?â€Â
Veritas said:Satan is not only protrayed as an adversary to man (specifically Joshua) in Zecheriah 3:1-2 but also to God: Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?â€Â
VaultZero4Me said:If someone wanted to start a thread on the Biblical evidence for Lucifer, I would be highly interested in following it.
Anyone have the time to provide the scriptural evidence to support the notion of the modern Christian view of Satan?
Orion said:Actually, I've heard all my life about how Satan hates us and the like, but was never sure where that thought came from other than tradition. I wasn't sure if there was some verse(s) that speak to this or not.
mondar, I am not sure if i can answer your question.
Rev 12
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, ""Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
11 ""And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
12 ""For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.''
2Peter 2
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
1 Peter 5:8
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour
2 Corinthians 4:4
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2Cor 11
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
2Cor 11
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
2Thess 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
Eph 6
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Isaiah 14
12
"How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning (Lucifer), son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth[/b],
You who have weakened the nations!
13
"But you said in your heart,
'I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14
'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'
15
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16
"Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17
Who made the world like a wilderness
And overthrew its cities,
Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
18
"All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
Each in his own tomb.
19
"But you have been cast out of your tomb
Like a rejected branch,
Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit
Like a trampled corpse.
Ezek 28
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13
"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14
"You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15
"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28
16
"By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17
"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
Ezek 28 <Speaking of Satan>
18
"By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19
"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"
BobRyan said:Veritas said:Satan is not only protrayed as an adversary to man (specifically Joshua) in Zecheriah 3:1-2 but also to God: Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?â€Â
True - And Christ's teaching on this point show that the devil was indeed a "bad thing".
When the Jews accused Christ of "having a demon" of "being satan" they were not accusing him of "being a servant of a good angel sent to make us better". When Christ accuses the jews of "being of their father the devil' he points out -- pre-cross Jew-to-Jew that the devil was a "murderer and liar" and that when he lies he speaks from his own heart -- as the originator of lies.
And note - the gospel writers Matthew and John were Jews -- Mark was a writer heavily influenced by Peter.
The fact that Jewish traditions "evolve over time" is not surprising.
The fact that Jewish traditions "contradicted the clear teaching of scripture" is pointed out by Christ in Mark 7:6-12.
"Thus you invalidate the commandment of God with your own tradition".
It is hardly a "substantive argument" to then make the claim today that Jewish tradition contradicts the Bible therefore the Bible is wrong.
(At least not as an argument put forward on a Christian message board where the starting position is that the Bible is true and Christianity is true -- in such a context you need proof that the opening context is in error -- you can not simply assume it.)
Bob
It is hardly a "substantive argument" to then make the claim today that Jewish tradition contradicts the Bible therefore the Bible is wrong.
(At least not as an argument put forward on a Christian message board where the starting position is that the Bible is true and Christianity is true -- in such a context you need proof that the opening context is in error -- you can not simply assume it.)
I did not mean to say that the teachings of Christianity are contradictory to the OT, but it certainly is not the same as the classical Judaic teachings from before Christ, and after Christ, up until this day.
This isn't to lead into a debate or anything, . I am just asking for biblical reference so I can try to understand the changing in understanding of the texts as taught by Judaism, to the differing interpretation at the advent of Christianity and the writing of the NT.
KingCrimson said:BobRyan, a question. Both the passage from Isaiah and the passage from Ezekiel are, when taken in context, referring to human kings. How do you know that these are typological of Satan? Is it not possible that they refer to the kings and the kings alone? I'll grant that it is a possibility that they could be typologies, but when discussing Satan I think it is preferable to refer to passages that are more certain. The NT quotes above, for example, or Job, nobody's mentioned Job yet.
John Darby on Ezek 28
John Darby
In chapter 28 it is the prince and the king of Tyre that are judged for their pride. Verses 1-10 set before us the prince of this world's glory as a man, exalting himself and seeking to present himself as a god, having acquired riches and glory by his wisdom. Verses 11-19, while continuing to speak of Tyre, go, I think, much farther, and disclose, though darkly, the fall and the ways of Satan,
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
. The language, though primarily here applied to the king of Tyre, as similar language is to the king of Babylon (Isa 14:13, 14), yet has an ulterior and fuller accomplishment in Satan
VaultZero4me said:I did not mean to say that the teachings of Christianity are contradictory to the OT, but it certainly is not the same as the classical Judaic teachings from before Christ, and after Christ, up until this day.
VaultZero4me said:Yes, Satan means the accuser, which is the role he played in Job. The accuser or prosecutor role is not what is taught by Christianity. Christianity holds satan as a direct adversary who directly competes against God for the souls of man, and acts on his own to try and win man from God. I do not believe any of the teachings from Judaism on the OT ever has Satan acting without God's direct permission, which is not what we see taught in Christianity. Satan is at war with God and man.
VaultZero4me said:This isn't to lead into a debate or anything, . I am just asking for biblical reference so I can try to understand the changing in understanding of the texts as taught by Judaism, to the differing interpretation at the advent of Christianity and the writing of the NT.