Was the promised land a type of heaven?
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is our answer in times of need.
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How many of us understand Grace?
- Thread starter Bro.Tan
- Start date
NewLifeInChrist
Member
Maybe. But we do know from the discussion in Hebrews that the reason those people did not enter "His rest" was that they what they heard was not mixed with trusting God in their hearts and because they refused to cease from their works as God did from His.
Then we may assume that the children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt was a type of purgatory!
Amen!
NewLifeInChrist
Member
Hilarious.
What are past sins? When Jesus died on the cross my sins were all future weren't they? Did he have a "cut off" point of which sins he was going to die for in my life? I believe Jesus died for ALL my sins. When I realize I have sinned I confess my sins and he is "faithful and just to forgive me my sins". The concept of "past sins" is very strange.
Past sins: all sin committed before you are baptized
Says who? Do you have a scripture for that? Again, when Jesus died on the cross all of your sins were future sins.
NewLifeInChrist
Member
Some people do not believe all their sins are forgiven. It is hard to imagine being at peace with God without that assurance, but some people insist they are. But most of them will admit they are not sure that what they have will last into eternity. It's very sad.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Yes, of course. A "type" of heaven, but not exactly. It was the land God promised to Abraham, and it wasn't handed to the Israelites on a silver platter, they had to occupy it, and they must follow God's instruction. The next generation under Joshua's leadership suffered a defeat at Ai in their conquest.
deepfaithpraise
Member
I am reminded of the powerful wisdom of the Apostle Paul, who wrote that 'where sin increased, grace increased all the more' (Romans 5:20). This beautiful reflection on the nature of grace highlights the boundless mercy of our Lord, who gave himself for our sins and restored our access to the Tree of Life.
As we journey through life, we are constantly reminded of our own frailty and the tendency to sin. Yet, it is in these moments of weakness that we are called to turn to the Lord, to seek forgiveness, and to experience the transformative power of his grace.
Let us not forget that grace is not a one-time event, but a continuous process of conversion and growth. It is a daily choice to surrender to the will of God, to seek his guidance, and to live in accordance with his commandments.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Grace must not be abused and taken as an bailout for willful sinning, that’s the folly with the “hypergrace” heresy that you are free to do whatever you want with impunity, which achieves the opposite of saving you from sin as it emboldens you to sin more egregiously and recklessly than before.
Acts 22:16
Then we may assume that the children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt was a type of purgatory!
Amen!
Tenchi
Member
Right. The person who is converted, who becomes a "new creature in Christ," at the moment of their conversion embarks on a life-long process of sanctification, by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, made holier and holier. But the NT offers to us many examples of Christians of truly born-again brethren in the faith who were not obeying God's Moral Law. And yet, they were addressed, nonetheless, as genuine children of God. So, then, the Christian walking with God in a spiritually-healthy way, free of false teaching, of besetting sins, of growth-stifling ignorance concerning their faith, who is being discipled well by a mature believer will naturally bear spiritual "fruit." Doing so doesn't help save the believer, or somehow keep them saved, however. To say that it does would be to blasphemously elevate the saved person to the position of co-Savior with Christ and to espouse the false doctrine of works-salvation.
It is, as the NT illustrates, possible to be a "carnal infant in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1-3), to be a persistently spiritually immature "milk drinker" (Hebrews 5:11-13), to be "poor, wretched, blind and naked" (Revelation 3:14-22) and still be a genuine member of God's kingdom and family - as all of these were.
Well, in light of the above, the way you've decided to interpret the meaning of Hebrews 10:26-27 creates a glaring conflict within Scripture. The moment you make your capacity to maintain a sin-free life the basis for your salvation, you make yourself a co-Savior with Jesus (though, after the fact): He saves you but you keep yourself saved. This is, of course, an entirely unbiblical idea. See: John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5. Inevitably, too, this co-savior thinking necessitates works-salvation, which the Bible repeatedly contradicts (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
So, then, what is a less conflict-producing reading of Hebrews 10:26-27 that doesn't contort the passage in order to avoid the conflict your view creates? Considering more of the context around the two verses you've selected helps greatly to understand them:
Hebrews 10:26-39
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
When a born-again believer sins in a willful way, that is, in a way openly rebellious toward God, and they persist in doing so ("go on sinning deliberately"), one of the results is a growing fear of God born of their repeatedly violated conscience. This sense of guilty fear afflicts any and all who possess a functioning conscience who "go on sinning deliberately." Atheist, Hindu, Muslim and Christian alike carry the "Law of God written on their hearts" (Romans 2:15) and so cannot escape the pang of conscience and sense of judgment that afflicts them when they violate the Moral Law that God has "written on their hearts." This is just the conscience functioning as God intended it to do.
Continued below.
Tenchi
Member
The Christian, though, is liberated from the condemnation and fear of a violated conscience, though not from it's guilt-producing effect.
Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
1 John 4:15-17
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment...
The sinning believer never has to fear the condemnation and punishment (as opposed to His discipline) of God, though violating their conscience will always produce this sense of condemnation (so long as their conscience doesn't become seared).
What does the writer of Hebrews mean by "no more sacrifice for sins"? Does he mean to say that God withdraws the atoning sacrifice for sins made through Jesus from the willfully sinning believer? I don't think so. I believe what is meant is that the sole means of reconciliation to God, which is through the Atonement of Christ on the cross, has been rejected by the believer in their persistent sinful rebellion toward God, and so ceases to function for that believer as the reconciling sacrifice that it is. To analogize: If I'm in a burning building and the sole avenue of escape from the building is the one exit door in front of me and I refuse to take it, there remains no more escape for me from the burning building. Not because there isn't one, not because someone else has cut me off from it, but because I have rejected the only exit there is from the building.
In the same way, there is "no more sacrifice for sins" for the one who persists willfully in sin and in so doing spurns the sacrifice of Christ for their sins. By virtue of their continuing in their sin, they have cut themselves off from the beneficial effects of the sacrifice of Christ on their behalf (spiritual cleansing and transformation, unhindered fellowship with God). Until they repent of their sin, confess it, and return to a place of surrender to God, the benefits of the Atonement are rendered useless for them, as if the sacrifice of the Atonement had not been made at all. This isn't to say the persistently sinning person loses their salvation, only that the benefits of being saved by the sacrifice of Christ are made useless to him/her (like a man who possesses a lawnmower but never uses it to mow his grass).
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Willfull persistence in sin by a born-again believer is a very serious thing! Being saved, they have a greater understanding of what God through Christ has done for them and so are far guiltier before God when they continue rebelliously in sin than any ignorant non-believer would be. "To whom much is given, much will be required." (Luke 12:47-48) And so, the warning of the writer to the Hebrews above. God will judge His people, their deeds done as a His child tested by fire and either consumed, or enduring and receiving a reward. The former will enter heaven but only "so as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15), which is to say, "With the smell of the smoke of hell on him." Prior to this point, though, God's discipline will have kicked in and levied ever-more severe consequences upon the believer who persists in their sin (Hebrews 12:5-11).
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
37 For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Here, the writer of Hebrews clarifies that the person who "goes on sinning deliberately" is not a moral profligate, necessarily, who has dived headlong into a life of unrestrained wicked immorality, but is the believer who, under the terrible pressure of persecution, "shrinks back" from the faith. Suffering for their allegiance to Christ, they have been "publicly exposed to reproach and affliction," have had their property plundered, and some of them had been jailed.
The writer to the Hebrews urged his readers not to "shrink" under this suffering (he doesn't say that they actually already have) and not to "throw away their confidence, which has a great reward" (vs. 35). God takes no pleasure in those who do (vs. 38). "And besides," the writer to the Hebrews wrote, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls" (vs. 39). In other words, the saved person naturally perseveres in the faith, their ability to do so coming from God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, within them (Romans 8:9-16; John 14:26; 1 John 4:13, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, etc.). This marks them out from the unsaved person who "shrinks back and is destroyed."
Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
1 John 4:15-17
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment...
The sinning believer never has to fear the condemnation and punishment (as opposed to His discipline) of God, though violating their conscience will always produce this sense of condemnation (so long as their conscience doesn't become seared).
What does the writer of Hebrews mean by "no more sacrifice for sins"? Does he mean to say that God withdraws the atoning sacrifice for sins made through Jesus from the willfully sinning believer? I don't think so. I believe what is meant is that the sole means of reconciliation to God, which is through the Atonement of Christ on the cross, has been rejected by the believer in their persistent sinful rebellion toward God, and so ceases to function for that believer as the reconciling sacrifice that it is. To analogize: If I'm in a burning building and the sole avenue of escape from the building is the one exit door in front of me and I refuse to take it, there remains no more escape for me from the burning building. Not because there isn't one, not because someone else has cut me off from it, but because I have rejected the only exit there is from the building.
In the same way, there is "no more sacrifice for sins" for the one who persists willfully in sin and in so doing spurns the sacrifice of Christ for their sins. By virtue of their continuing in their sin, they have cut themselves off from the beneficial effects of the sacrifice of Christ on their behalf (spiritual cleansing and transformation, unhindered fellowship with God). Until they repent of their sin, confess it, and return to a place of surrender to God, the benefits of the Atonement are rendered useless for them, as if the sacrifice of the Atonement had not been made at all. This isn't to say the persistently sinning person loses their salvation, only that the benefits of being saved by the sacrifice of Christ are made useless to him/her (like a man who possesses a lawnmower but never uses it to mow his grass).
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Willfull persistence in sin by a born-again believer is a very serious thing! Being saved, they have a greater understanding of what God through Christ has done for them and so are far guiltier before God when they continue rebelliously in sin than any ignorant non-believer would be. "To whom much is given, much will be required." (Luke 12:47-48) And so, the warning of the writer to the Hebrews above. God will judge His people, their deeds done as a His child tested by fire and either consumed, or enduring and receiving a reward. The former will enter heaven but only "so as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15), which is to say, "With the smell of the smoke of hell on him." Prior to this point, though, God's discipline will have kicked in and levied ever-more severe consequences upon the believer who persists in their sin (Hebrews 12:5-11).
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
37 For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Here, the writer of Hebrews clarifies that the person who "goes on sinning deliberately" is not a moral profligate, necessarily, who has dived headlong into a life of unrestrained wicked immorality, but is the believer who, under the terrible pressure of persecution, "shrinks back" from the faith. Suffering for their allegiance to Christ, they have been "publicly exposed to reproach and affliction," have had their property plundered, and some of them had been jailed.
The writer to the Hebrews urged his readers not to "shrink" under this suffering (he doesn't say that they actually already have) and not to "throw away their confidence, which has a great reward" (vs. 35). God takes no pleasure in those who do (vs. 38). "And besides," the writer to the Hebrews wrote, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls" (vs. 39). In other words, the saved person naturally perseveres in the faith, their ability to do so coming from God, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, within them (Romans 8:9-16; John 14:26; 1 John 4:13, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, etc.). This marks them out from the unsaved person who "shrinks back and is destroyed."
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Not really, there’s no purgatory. If you insist that there’s such a type, then that would be our lifelong journey of sanctification in this world, our exile from Eden. Israelites gained their identity in the wilderness as they received the law, we gain our identity as we receive the Holy Spirit. When they were in Egypt, they had no such National identity, they were slaves, and so were we before salvation. We were salves to sin. I wouldn’t call that purgatory.
Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.
IOW His payment covers any of our sins.
The way we appropriate that forgiveness is to confess our sins and be forgiven.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
He died for the sins of the world, however not everyone in the world or the church will benefit from the price He paid on the cross because they won’t confess their sins and be forgiven.
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2
JLB
That's not really an answer. You said baptism erases all "past sins". 1 John 1:9 says that as we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Do we need to be baptized every time we confess our sins? Jesus died for ALL of our sins--that is why we can be forgiven for them when we confess them. And we ALL need to confess our sins every single day. We are sinners.
No thats only necessary if we commit a sin unto death (mortal sin) after baptism
NewLifeInChrist
Member
Don does not defend his positions. He just states them.