Humblepie
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Please stay on topic. This thread is about theology, not my personal walk with the savior.
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Deuteronomy 13 test.
- Thread starter Humblepie
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Please stay on topic. This thread is about theology, not my personal walk with the savior.
I'm talking about the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.
I guess you can say these have all been fulfilled in God's greatest law of love.
What would be the purpose of sacrificing animals to make atonement once a year to make atonement for sin. Jesus already made the greatest sacrifice for our sin by His precious blood He shed for all that by Him to all who will believe in Him may have eternal life with Him, John 3:16-21.
The cornerstone for the new Temple was brought to Jerusalem on May 21, 2009 and still remains on the street. "Jerusalem Day" in 1967 was to celebrate the liberation of the Temple Mount, but there is a problem there as the Doom of the Rock sits on the Temple Mount. Baruch Ben-Yosel , chairman of the Movement to Restore the Temple, made it clear that the Temple had to be built in the exact spot where the Dome of the Rock sits.
There will never be a third Temple built by hands, Acts 7:48; Acts 17:24. When the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom after Jesus gave up the ghost, Matthew 27:50, 51, this symbolized that the sacrifice of Jesus and the shedding of his blood was now made for the atonement of sin and that all, Jew and Gentile, can come before Him as He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.
There is no more veil for the Priest to enter into the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement for Israel's sin nor is there any more animal sacrifices as we are no longer under the Old Covenant nor the preaching of the law, but are under a new and better covenant of Gods grace through Christ Jesus as our High Priest, Hebrews 4:14-16. Jesus prophesied of the Temple being desolate and that no one will see Him again until His time comes meaning when He returns on the last day, Matthew 24:1, 2; Luke 13:34, 35, John 6:40.
God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD. The Muslims will never give it over to Israel, plus the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition (not a Muslim man) to come and sit on his throne and will cause a great falling away from truth, Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.
Jesus fulfilled everything the temple stood for being the last sacrificial lamb taking away all the sin of the world. God no longer dwells in a temple made by hands, Acts 7:48-50; 17:22-31; Hebrews 10:7-18
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The church, (body of Christ) is the temple where God dwells by His Holy Spirit, Zechariah 6:9-15 (prophecy of coming Messiah); 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22, Galatians 3:19-29.
In 70AD the second temple was destroyed and put an end to the temple made by hands and the sacrifices made there. The Temple of God now dwells in all who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10.
Humblepie
MemberLet's take a look at a couple scriptures.
Many claim Jesus declared all meats clean, here is the story told in Matthew and Mark. One version is the 1611 KJV in original Archaic English.
As we can see, it's about washed hands and traditions of men, not about the dietary law concerning clean and unclean animals.
Matt 15:1-
15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with (((((unwashen hands defileth not a man.))))))
(KJV)
Mark 7:1-20 (KJV)
1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots*, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them*, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mark 7:1-20 (1611 kjv. Original English Archaic spelling)
1Then came together vnto him the Pharises, and certain of the Scribes, which came from Hierusalem.
2And when they saw some of his disciples eate bread with defiled (that is to say, with vnwashen) hands, they found fault.
3For the Pharises and all the Iewes, except they wash their hands oft, eate not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eate not. And many other things there be, which they haue receiued to hold, as the washing of cups and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5Then the Pharises and Scribes asked him, Why walke not thy disciples according to the tradition of the Elders, but eate bread with vnwashen hands?
6He answered and said vnto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you Hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth mee with their lips, but their heart is farre from me.
7Howbeit in vaine doe they worship me, teaching for doctrines, the commandements of men.
8For laying aside the Commandement of God, yee hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots, and cups: and many other such like things ye doe.
9And he said vnto them, Full well ye reiect the Commandement of God, that ye may keepe your owne tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father & thy mother: and who so curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoeuer thou mightest be profited by me: he shalbe free.
12And ye suffer him no more to doe ought for his father, or his mother:
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye haue deliuered: And many such like things doe ye.
14¶ And when he had called all the people vnto him, hee said vnto them, Hearken vnto me euery one of you, and vnderstand.
15There is nothing from without a man that entring into him, can defile him: but the things which come out of of him, those are they that defile the man.
16If any man haue eares to heare, let him heare.
17And when hee was entred into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18And he saith vnto them, Are ye so without vnderstanding also? Doe yee not perceiue that whatsoeuer thing from without entreth into the man, it cannot defile him,
19Because it entreth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20And he said, That which commeth out of the man, that defileth the man.
21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed euill thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22Thefts, couetousnesse, wickednesse, deceit, lasciuiousnesse, an euill eye, blasphemie, pride, foolishnesse:
23All these euill things come from within, and defile the man.
Ok...
I think you may be taking it in a different sense than the way most would take it, though. When they say "fulfilled," they mean more in the sense of completed, referring to Christ having lived a spotless life while in the flesh.
Or at least that's always the way I have taken it. I'd have to retrain my thinking to approach the subject from what appears to be the way you are taking the expression to mean.
Blessings, and hope you are having a wonderful afternoon.
- H
Maybe this will help explain this.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Well it helps me understand how you are taking the word fulfill. I just think the word has a different meaning in discussing Christ fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law and becoming the perfect sacrifice.
The righteousness of the law was the fulfillment of love through Christ as He gave of Himself in a perfect sacrifice of love.
If the Temple was still around and the Jews were offering sacrifices, would you say that believers are to offer sacrifices?
If the “true biblical structure and process necessary to carry out” the commands to stone adulterers and homosexuals was in place, would Christians have to stone those who were sexually immoral?
I am very much on topic. Either you practice what you preach or you don’t. If you don’t, then you need to explain why. That’s how theology works—there is a problem if what one believes doesn’t affect their behaviour.
Quoting Paul's still in the flesh, under the Law, preconversion laments, doesn't help your case at all.
Two of your verses have been answered in other places: Rom 7:23 is answered by Rom 8:2.
And Rom 7:24 was answered in Rom 6:6.
Yes, but the Target arrived 2000 years ago !
"...that the man of God may be perfect..." (2 Tim 3:17)
I am glad we agree on that.
Does that mean your last answer was wrong ?
As Jesus HAS conquered sin, all those "in Christ" can share in that victory !
Did Jesus commit a sin ?
What you cite is an OT verse Paul used to convince the Jews that even with the Law they still needed a Savior.
Even with the Law, they were no better off than any Gentile.
If the Law has shown you the way towards righteousness, why have you not taken It ?
Why are you still unrighteous ?
1 Peter 4:1:
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"
If you keep posting pre-Jesus verses pointing out how unprofitable it is attempting to be righteous by the Law, I will keep posting verse that point out how Jesus gave us a way of actually being righteous.
Jesus was the blessing.
By our "immersion" into Him, and into His death and burial, (Rom 6:3), we can destroy that which fought against righteousness; (Rom 6:6), and be raised with Jesus from His grave to walk in newness of life ! (Rom 6:4)
They why are still defending sinning ?
You said above that Jesus conquered sin.
Why have you not been baptized into Him to partake in that victory ?
Trying to follow a Law that made nobody righteous, leads me to believe that righteousness isn't your main goal.
What is your main goal ?
The pre-sage, (circumcision), or shadow of what was to come, arrived with the death and resurrection of Christ.
It is written..."And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom ye are circumcised with the circumcision done without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Col 2:10-14)
Why adhere to that which has been blotted out ?
Acts 16:1-3..."Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
Tim wouldn't have been allowed to teach in any synagogue, if his parents weren't Jews.