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Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

Particular Baptist said:
What a bunch of mumbo-jumbo from someone who if he were under pain of death could not even properly quote a signature (that does not say I use the Authorized Version alone, because I also support other translations from the Byzantine stream, where Christians in Acts 11 were first so called as well as upon occasion employ lexicons, concordances in addition to commentaries), or admit he derails a thread on predestination to propund his disbelief in the Bible; is there a reliable, accurate translation in any language that is the world of God? Did Jesus lie when he said in Mt. 23.35, Mk. 13.31 or Lu. 21.31 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away"?

Brother, there is very little difference between you and Rome on this point: after all, you accept a French priest's theory to defeat biblicism to bring men into their mother church.

You well know the underliying text of Tyndale to the Breeches is the Second Rabbinic Bible and Byzantine text, and that of Wycliff, as much of a Godly man was he takes Latin influences. Not one MANUSCRIPT!? WOW! What a lie! There are aroud 145 manuscripts supporting the critical text, but of the about 5500 5400 (such as all 2431 known lectionaries and 81 papyri) support the TR and associated readings. Your Critical texts have less than one tenth a percent of support, but you have the audacity to ridicule them! What a foolish thing!

Might I advise that we speak of this in another place since this is a predestination thread, not one about Bible translations?
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You have made a number of false accusations against me here. I'll not go into details as you don't seem to be listening.

In your reply here, you stated: 'that does not say I use the Authorized Version alone'. But your signature at the base of your posts states: 'Particular Baptist holds to the Authorized Version in English'. Seems like something contradictory in what you are saying!

You introduce superfluous information in your reply and you don't deal with the content of what I wrote.

Bye,
Oz:rollingpin
 
turnorburn said:
There isn't a problem with my bible its the KJV.. other versions omit some text and some add to the text.. the KJV has been under attack for quite some time.
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Which KJV edition are you using? How do you know there isn't a problem with your KJV?

Do you agree with this statement from Mark 16:18 (KJV), 'They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them'. Is that what you do at your church on Sundays? If not, why not?

Do you believe that a person has to be baptised to be saved? Well, that is what the Mark 16:16 (KJV) teaches: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved'. The remainder of the NT does not support that view. The KJV 1611 edition for Mark 16:16 reads, 'He that beleeueth and is baptized, shalbe saued, but he that beleeueth not, shall be damned'. Do you want to be reading that language in 2016?

It's not that other versions 'omit some text'. The issue is the other way round. The KJV ADDED words to the text. We know this because much earlier MSS have been found than those used by Erasmus for the Textus Receptus and they do not contain the extra words that are in the KJV. This means the KJV has ADDED TO Scripture, which is a serious charge.

The KJV ought to be assessed for its accuracy. Earlier MSS have been found that help us with that assessment.

By the way, do you read the 1611 edition of the KJV that came with the Apocrypha? If not, why not?

Oz
 
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Particular Baptist said:
The Alexandrian School of Origen, father of gnosticism, and his disciples, like their later new aged successors Wescott, Hort, Black, Aland, Kurt Tischendorf, Mme. Blavatsky, author of Holy Satan, Henry Olcott Steele and on their corrupt text (as well as Rudolph Kittel's corrupted 1937 Biblica Hebraica derived from B19 or Codex Leningrad, not the Masorete text) removed Mark 16.9-20. They are the reason Acts 8.37, I Jn. 5.7-8, Jn. 7.53-8.11, 5.4 , Mt. 17.10, 18.11 among about sixteen other passages are doubted or deleted in such versions as in his post. This is in total contrast to the Byzantine or Received Text.

Here is a partial list of the removals, additions and deletions. Here is more information on the topic.
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That in no way addresses the two questions I asked.
 
Particular Baptist said:
The Alexandrian School of Origen, father of gnosticism, and his disciples, like their later new aged successors Wescott, Hort, Black, Aland, Kurt Tischendorf, Mme. Blavatsky, author of Holy Satan, Henry Olcott Steele and on their corrupt text (as well as Rudolph Kittel's corrupted 1937 Biblica Hebraica derived from B19 or Codex Leningrad, not the Masorete text) removed Mark 16.9-20. They are the reason Acts 8.37, I Jn. 5.7-8, Jn. 7.53-8.11, 5.4 , Mt. 17.10, 18.11 among about sixteen other passages are doubted or deleted in such versions as in his post. This is in total contrast to the Byzantine or Received Text.

Here is a partial list of the removals, additions and deletions. Here is more information on the topic.
Click to expand...

Origen (ca. 185-254) was not the father of Gnosticism. Valentinus (ca. 100-160) was that person in Carthage, northern Africa. He founded his school in Rome. However, seeds of Gnosticism existed before the time of Christ.

John addressed a Gnostic heresy in his epistles:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already (1 John 4:1-3 ESV).​

See Christian History: Gnosticism.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
Which KJV edition are you using? How do you know there isn't a problem with your KJV?

Do you agree with this statement from Mark 16:18 (KJV), 'They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them'. Is that what you do at your church on Sundays? If not, why not?

Do you believe that a person has to be baptised to be saved? Well, that is what the Mark 16:16 (KJV) teaches: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved'. The remainder of the NT does not support that view. The KJV 1611 edition for Mark 16:16 reads, 'He that beleeueth and is baptized, shalbe saued, but he that beleeueth not, shall be damned'. Do you want to be reading that language in 2016?

It's not that other versions 'omit some text'. The issue is the other way round. The KJV ADDED words to the text. We know this because much earlier MSS have been found than those used by Erasmus for the Textus Receptus and they do not contain the extra words that are in the KJV. This means the KJV has ADDED TO Scripture, which is a serious charge.

The KJV ought to be assessed for its accuracy. Earlier MSS have been found that help us with that assessment.

By the way, do you read the 1611 edition of the KJV that came with the Apocrypha? If not, why not?

Oz
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Like i said: KJV has been under attack for quite some time..
 
turnorburn said:
Like i said: KJV has been under attack for quite some time..
Click to expand...

You didn't answer what I wrote about the KJV and its problems. Why do you ignore the problems I raised with the KJV?

The KJV ought to be criticised for these factors:
  1. It doesn't meet the MSS (manuscript) standard;
  2. It adds to Scripture;
  3. It teaches doctrines that are contrary to the rest of Scripture, which means
  4. It violates the law of non-contradiction, and
  5. It is not written in understandable language for the 21st century.
Oz
 
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WIP said:
How about bringing this discussion back on topic!
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There's a penetrating verse that gives a further dynamic to this double-predestination debate.

That's in 2 Peter 2:1 (ESV), 'But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction'.

Therefore, there will be false prophets and false teachers among the people of God who are 'denying the Master'. The interesting statement is that even with the deniers of the Master, he 'bought them' through his death. These deniers for whom the Master paid the price and bought them through his death would experience 'swift destruction'.

So there would be the damned for whom the Master died. They denied Him and would be destroyed eternally - but he bought them.

Who does the denying of the Master? Is it the Master who predestined them to his wrath and hell? Not at all! They were the ones responsible for 'denying the Master'. It was not some big Ogre who damned them through his unconditional election to damnation.

Oz
 
OzSpen said:
There's a penetrating verse that gives a further dynamic to this double-predestination debate.

That's in 2 Peter 2:1 (ESV), 'But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction'.

Therefore, there will be false prophets and false teachers among the people of God who are 'denying the Master'. The interesting statement is that even with the deniers of the Master, he 'bought them' through his death. These deniers for whom the Master paid the price and bought them through his death would experience 'swift destruction'.

So there would be the damned for whom the Master died. They denied Him and would be destroyed eternally - but he bought them.

Who does the denying of the Master? Is it the Master who predestined them to his wrath and hell? Not at all! They were the ones responsible for 'denying the Master'. It was not some big Ogre who damned them through his unconditional election to damnation.

Oz
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:thumbsup
 
I should probably clarify. The topic of this thread is not which Bible version is the best.
 
dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that Judas Iscariot was the only person called "the son of perdititon". It is the sin of unbelief than condemns and that is only after death. While a person is alive there is hope that they will become a believer. So I agree with Jim Parker.
 
OzSpen said:
Jim,

Why don't you now supply the biblical reasons to support your stance? To this point, yours is nothing more than your assertion.

Here's an interesting article on St Augustine vs St Justin Martyr on Double Predestination.

Oz
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Predestination, as taught today, is the result of the innovative theology of John Calvin.
The idea that God has predetermined to save some and condemn others is not supported by any serious analysis of scripture.
The teaching of scripture is that whoever will believe will be saved.

John 3:14-18 (RSV) tells us that belief whoever believes may have eternal life. That is not predestination; it is mans response to God's offered gift.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:19-20 (RSV) tells us that it is the choice of men to reject the gift of eternal life; not God's foreordination.
And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

iakov the fool
 
Jim Parker said:
Predestination, as taught today, is the result of the innovative theology of John Calvin.
The idea that God has predetermined to save some and condemn others is not supported by any serious analysis of scripture.
The teaching of scripture is that whoever will believe will be saved.
Click to expand...
It's possible to understand predestination as God predetermining to save all believers, and condemn all non-believers, though that isn't actually stated in Scripture. The closest verse to that idea is found in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

So, in one sense, all believers have been predestined to be saved.

The problem with Calvinism is their understanding of predestination. For them, God predestines "who will believe", which is quite different than "who will be saved".

And I've found that not many Calvinists are comfortable with actually admitting that. But the underlying foundation of their view of predestination is that God does choose who will believe. Sort of a blending of election and predestination.
 
dirtfarmer here

God did predestinate, but it was not "who will believe" and who will be destroyed in the lake of fire. God's predestination is that those that believed would become sons of God, Every one that believes have become sons.
 
FreeGrace said:
It's possible to understand predestination as God predetermining to save all believers, and condemn all non-believers, though that isn't actually stated in Scripture. The closest verse to that idea is found in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

So, in one sense, all believers have been predestined to be saved.

The problem with Calvinism is their understanding of predestination. For them, God predestines "who will believe", which is quite different than "who will be saved".

And I've found that not many Calvinists are comfortable with actually admitting that. But the underlying foundation of their view of predestination is that God does choose who will believe. Sort of a blending of election and predestination.
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As I see it, the opportunity to have eternal life is open to all of mankind and some accept it while others reject it.
What I have encountered as Calvinism rejects man's ability to exercise his free will.

A rational argument for double predestination (God choosing some for eternal life and others for eternal punishment) can be formulated by using scriptures that seem to clearly indicate that to be the case only if other scriptures are ignored or their meaning distorted. (Such as John 3:16 not meaning that God lover the entire world but only those He would save.)

iakov the fool
 
Jim Parker said:
As I see it, the opportunity to have eternal life is open to all of mankind and some accept it while others reject it.
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I agree.

What I have encountered as Calvinism rejects man's ability to exercise his free will.
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Right. Therefore, God must choose who will believe.

A rational argument for double predestination (God choosing some for eternal life and others for eternal punishment) can be formulated by using scriptures that seem to clearly indicate that to be the case only if other scriptures are ignored or their meaning distorted. (Such as John 3:16 not meaning that God lover the entire world but only those He would save.)

iakov the fool
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Right. Not only are other verses ignored or misunderstood, there are no verses that teach that anyone is predestined to the lake of fire.
 
FreeGrace said:
Right. Not only are other verses ignored or misunderstood, there are no verses that teach that anyone is predestined to the lake of fire.
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A thought occurred to me. As a result of Adam's sine, are we not all predestined to the Lake of Fire?

"For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin." Ecclesiastes 7:20 NKJV

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 NKJV

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned...." Romans 5:12 NKJV

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one." Psalm 14 NKJV

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8 NKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:10 NKJV

"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NKJV

"So Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.'" Luke 18:19 NKJV

"Man who is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble." Job 14:1 NKJV

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3 NKJV
 
WIP said:
A thought occurred to me. As a result of Adam's sine, are we not all predestined to the Lake of Fire?

"For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin." Ecclesiastes 7:20 NKJV

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 NKJV

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned...." Romans 5:12 NKJV

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one." Psalm 14 NKJV

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8 NKJV
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:10 NKJV

"For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 NKJV

"So Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.'" Luke 18:19 NKJV

"Man who is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble." Job 14:1 NKJV

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'" John 3:3 NKJV
Click to expand...

How do those verses related to the OP of people being predestined to hell? Seems as though you could have missed a biblical understanding of predestination/election.
 
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