Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Not only are other verses ignored or misunderstood, there are no verses that teach that anyone is predestined to the lake of fire."

A thought occurred to me. As a result of Adam's sine, are we not all predestined to the Lake of Fire?

I think "destined" would be more accurate. We're all born headed for hell.

John 3:36 - NIV - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

I don't think anyone has been predestined to not believe.

If that were true, then, yes, those would have been predestined to the lake of fire.

 

[WIP]

I said this:
"Not only are other verses ignored or misunderstood, there are no verses that teach that anyone is predestined to the lake of fire."

I think "destined" would be more accurate. We're all born headed for hell.

John 3:36 - NIV - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

I don't think anyone has been predestined to not believe.

If that were true, then, yes, those would have been predestined to the lake of fire.

You have understood my question. Could you further explain the difference between destined and predestined? .
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see this line of questioning as a derailing of the thread. I think it is important to have this understanding to go along with the discussion.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have understood my question. Could you further explain the difference between destined and predestined? .
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see this line of questioning as a derailing of the thread. I think it is important to have this understanding to go along with the discussion.

Thanks.

I agree. Questions are the only way to understand the views of others. And to challenge their views in order to determine whether their views can answer the questions.

Because of Adam's sin, all of humanity is destined for the lake of fire. I don't see that as being predestined, but just the way it is.

I view "predestined" as a plan that causes an outcome. Adam didn't have a plan to screw up the human race, but his actions did that. So as a result of his actions, the human race is destined for the lake of fire.

otoh, God has predestined all believers to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (Rom 8:29). While not all believers achieve this in this life, all believers will certainly achieve this in eternity, when they receive their resurrection bodies. That is God's plan.

 

[WIP]

I agree. Questions are the only way to understand the views of others. And to challenge their views in order to determine whether their views can answer the questions.

Because of Adam's sin, all of humanity is destined for the lake of fire. I don't see that as being predestined, but just the way it is.

I view "predestined" as a plan that causes an outcome. Adam didn't have a plan to screw up the human race, but his actions did that. So as a result of his actions, the human race is destined for the lake of fire.

otoh, God has predestined all believers to be conformed to the likeness of His Son (Rom 8:29). While not all believers achieve this in this life, all believers will certainly achieve this in eternity, when they receive their resurrection bodies. That is God's plan.

My thought is that predestination is when something is destined by a previous action so my thought was that Adam was not predestined to the lake of fire however due to Adam's sin all of those born after him are destined before conception and therefore predestined to the lake of fire.

 

[dirtfarmer]

My thought is that predestination is when something is destined by a previous action so my thought was that Adam was not predestined to the lake of fire however due to Adam's sin all of those born after him are destined before conception and therefore predestined to the lake of fire.

hello WIP, dirtfarmer here

Here is my thought: Because of Adam's sin judgment has been past on mankind, therefore, for that reason all have the destination of the lake of fire is because of judgment, not predestination. Only those that are saved have their destination changed to the kingdom of His dear Son.

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

I am surprised nobody yet used this one in support of the idea God has intended pre-destination for some to hell:
John 17:9-12 (NIV)
"9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[a] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."
For those unaware this is where Jesus prays right before being arrested, tried and crucified; referring to Judas of course. Though other translations make the pre-destination aspect clearer; I think this alone sufficiently validates the concept that God can and has chosen some vessels, as quoted by beloved and JLB above...to be fitted for destruction. One can argue til blue in the face about it; one can choose not to like it...but there is significant scriptural confirmation of this idea; and none at all to discount it....sooooo.
In the end, this is not to say that "all" are so designated...this is not to say that there is no free will or personal choice; but due to God's precognition, He already knows what folks will choose given their character, approach, perspectives and general intention. Thus there is predestination; He has chosen those for destruction He already knows will freely choose this course, it does not detract from fee will. We do well to look at every side and angle when we consider such matters eh?

 

[smaller]

Everyone who thinks the devil and his messengers are destined/predestined to land in the LoF raise your hand.

Good. That should at least settle this question of predestination to hell.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

When was this "determination" made? From the very start:

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 

[FreeGrace]

Everyone who thinks the devil and his messengers are destined/predestined to land in the LoF raise your hand.

Good. That should at least settle this question of predestination to hell.

How does his final destination equate to PRE-destination?

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

When was this "determination" made? From the very start:

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Where does Gen 1:4 teach that the devil was PRE-destined to the lake of fire. No one even knows WHEN the lake of fire was created.

We only know that it was created FOR the devil and his angels. Matt 25:41

It does no good to assume what the Bible doesn't state.

 

[smaller]

How does his final destination equate to PRE-destination?

Where does Gen 1:4 teach that the devil was PRE-destined to the lake of fire. No one even knows WHEN the lake of fire was created.

You think otherwise?

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

We only know that it was created FOR the devil and his angels. Matt 25:41

Of course this is the case. They are the ONLY parties in the scriptures that we know for a certainty that are headed that direction.

It does no good to assume what the Bible doesn't state.

There is no question they are scheduled for final destruction.

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

What is it you are thinking, that it's NOT going to happen? They are predestined to destruction. Unless you adhere to possible satanic salvation?

Romans 9 tells us pretty clearly this this fate awaits as well:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

And this "wrath" clearly falls upon THEM, HERE:

Revelation 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev. 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And WHO are these?

Revelation 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The eventual "slaying" of the dragon is what was prophesied, to be in store for same. PREDESTINED if you prefer.

Genesis 3:14
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

And this, his final fate. SECOND DEATH.

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

It is called the "second death" because all of his/their first habitations turn to dust, in death.

There is no DEVIL in the book of LIFE.

 

[FreeGrace]

You think otherwise?

Where does the Bible SAY that the devil was PRE-destined to the lake of fire?

Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Every human being needs to escape the damnation of hell. This verse does NOT teach that anyone, including the devil, is PRE-destined to hell.

There is no question they are scheduled for final destruction.

No question. And this still doesn't equate to PRE-destination.

What is it you are thinking, that it's NOT going to happen? They are predestined to destruction.

It seems the difference between destined and PRE-destined is not being appreciated.

Unless you adhere to possible satanic salvation?

Nonsense. He is destined to hell.

It is called the "second death" because all of his/their first habitations turn to dust, in death.

And has nothing to do with being either PRE-destined or just destined.

There is no DEVIL in the book of LIFE.

No one has argued otherwise.

 

[smaller]

Where does the Bible SAY that the devil was PRE-destined to the lake of fire?

Where does the Bible SAY otherwise?

Every human being needs to escape the damnation of hell. This verse does NOT teach that anyone, including the devil, is PRE-destined to hell.

Ah, so the devil is going to or might be saved? That's why I asked you prior if you hold possible Satanic salvation.

No question. And this still doesn't equate to PRE-destination.

Romans 9:22 is clear that vessels of dishonor are fitted to destruction. We don't have to have the LoF inserted therein or in any "promise" of forthcoming destruction, as noted by several scriptures prior, to see specifically, how that transpires.

It seems the difference between destined and PRE-destined is not being appreciated.

Creation isn't as random as free will postures.

Nonsense. He is destined to hell.

Satan was made to be destroyed in the end. There is zero chance that it's going to turn out otherwise.

And has nothing to do with being either PRE-destined or just destined.

Ecclesiastes 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

 

[dirtfarmer]

Where does the Bible SAY otherwise?



Ah, so the devil is going to or might be saved? That's why I asked you prior if you hold possible Satanic salvation.



Romans 9:22 is clear that vessels of dishonor are fitted to destruction. We don't have to have the LoF inserted therein or in any "promise" of forthcoming destruction, as noted by several scriptures prior, to see specifically, how that transpires.



Creation isn't as random as free will postures.



Satan was made to be destroyed in the end. There is zero chance that it's going to turn out otherwise.



Ecclesiastes 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

What scripture states that "Satan was made to be destroyed in the end?"

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Where does the Bible SAY that the devil was PRE-destined to the lake of fire?"

Where does the Bible SAY otherwise?

We all recognize this as a simple cop-out answer, or no answer. Specifically, the Bible does NOT say that the devil was PRE-destined for anything. So let's just quit making up stuff from one's imagination.

I then said this:
"Every human being needs to escape the damnation of hell. This verse does NOT teach that anyone, including the devil, is PRE-destined to hell."

Ah, so the devil is going to or might be saved? That's why I asked you prior if you hold possible Satanic salvation.

<sigh>, and I answered this ridiculous question with this:
"Nonsense. He is destined to hell."

Romans 9:22 is clear that vessels of dishonor are fitted to destruction.

I'm betting that the Greek word for "fitted to" hasn't been researched. The word is 'katartizo' and basically means to "restore, adjust to fit, mend". So, those headed for destruction have to be "adjusted to fit", or as we say it today, retrofitted. That's clearly NOT PRE-destination.

I then said this:
"It seems the difference between destined and PRE-destined is not being appreciated."

Creation isn't as random as free will postures.

How does free will "posture"? What does that even mean? Your statements are quite bizarre.

And how is it a response to my statement? I see no relevance at all.

Satan was made to be destroyed in the end.

OK, there it is; PRE-destination. So, where is your proof text that supports the claim? If he was made to be destroyed, the Bible would SAY so. So, where does it SAY so? It doesn't. Your claim is nothing more than an opinion, a huge assumption, or just some fancy imaginative wishful thinking.

There is zero chance that it's going to turn out otherwise.

This in no way supports or defends your claim that he was made to be destroyed. Unless there is specific Scripture that SAYS SO.

Ecclesiastes 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

Please explain how this proves that the devil was PRE-destined to the lake of fire.

It still seems that the difference between destination and PRE-destination are not being appreciated in any meaningful way. Do you have a dictionary handy?

 

[smaller]

I asked this:
"Where does the Bible SAY that the devil was PRE-destined to the lake of fire?"

We all recognize this as a simple cop-out answer, or no answer. Specifically, the Bible does NOT say that the devil was PRE-destined for anything. So let's just quit making up stuff from one's imagination.

We know the devil and his messengers ARE headed to the flames. There is no ambiguity about this from the scriptures. Matt. 25:41 being a great example. Whether you prefer to see that as "destined" or "predestined" is quite irrelevant, imho. It's there. It's settled that's going to happen. That IS predestined. If we don't have the word "predestined" or the "lake of fire" specified therein it is irrelevant.

I then said this:
"Every human being needs to escape the damnation of hell. This verse does NOT teach that anyone, including the devil, is PRE-destined to hell."

<sigh>, and I answered this ridiculous question with this:
"Nonsense. He is destined to hell."

You wouldn't be the first believer I've ran across that wants to make an issue of nothing. I've seen several grown believing men fight viciously and dividing over the meaning of a single 3 letter word in the O.T. To me such types of sharing are a pathetic waste of time.

Men in the flesh were PRE-destined by God to die. 1 Cor. 15:42-47. IF some want to say only destined it won't change the outcome of reality.

I'm betting that the Greek word for "fitted to" hasn't been researched. The word is 'katartizo' and basically means to "restore, adjust to fit, mend". So, those headed for destruction have to be "adjusted to fit", or as we say it today, retrofitted. That's clearly NOT PRE-destination.

God made the wicked precisely to destroy them in the end. There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate otherwise.

I then said this:
"It seems the difference between destined and PRE-destined is not being appreciated."

How does free will "posture"? What does that even mean? Your statements are quite bizarre.

God predestined everything in creation for the sole purposes of extracting His Pleasure.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And how is it a response to my statement? I see no relevance at all.

Making a federal case out of pre added to destined is what is irrelevant.

We know for a fact that all things were created for Gods Purposes, Him Only, in advance knowing everything. All things known from beginning to ending. That IS predestined.

Freewill, which I know you adhere to, is a presentation that "random acts" by freewill agents is a reality. I think it's nonsense. Simple difference in sight of Divine Sovereignty over all things or Divine Sovereignty over nothing, as your case is in the latter.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

What scripture states that "Satan was made to be destroyed in the end?"

God created all things including evil. Gen. 2:9, Isa. 45:7. God will destroy evil at the end of this age. 1 Cor. 15:24. Satan is evil. Matt. 13:19. Simple expositions.

 

[FreeGrace]

We know the devil and his messengers ARE headed to the flames.

Never said they weren't. But no where in Scripture do we read that he was "made for destruction" as you've said.

There is no ambiguity about this from the scriptures.

No argument about that. But the discussion is about what PRE-destination means.

Matt. 25:41 being a great example

Not of PRE-destination.

Whether you prefer to see that as "destined" or "predestined" is quite irrelevant, imho.

Opinion noted. And, there's your problem.

It's there. It's settled that's going to happen. That IS predestined.

No it isn't. To be PRE-destined means that God determined that the devil would end up in the lake of fire. He certainly knew he would, but God didn't PRE-determine it. And you've failed to show any verse that backs up your claim.

Men in the flesh were PRE-destined by God to die.

OK, another empty claim, without any Scriptural support.

1 Cor. 15:42-47. IF some want to say only destined it won't change the outcome of reality.

Your so-called "outcome of reality" doesn't distinguish the difference between PRE-destination and destination. Which is no surprise.

God made the wicked precisely to destroy them in the end.

So, go ahead and prove this from Scripture.

There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate otherwise.

Uh, there is NOTHING in Scripture that supports your assumption.

God predestined everything in creation for the sole purposes of extracting His Pleasure.

Odd that you'd use such wording after your previous claim, so let's just see what gives Him pleasure, or just the opposite, what doesn't please Him.

This is what Scripture says about what pleases God:
"And without faith, it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." Heb 11:6

Now, this is what doesn't please Him:
"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" Eze 18:23

Your ideas have been refuted from Scripture.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Considering what Ezekiel 18:23 says, your views simply misunderstand or twist Rev 4:11.

Freewill, which I know you adhere to, is a presentation that "random acts" by freewill agents is a reality.

This statement makes no sense, which is no surprise, given the other things you've stated. What does "random acts" mean, and how is that related to free will? Please be specific.

I think it's nonsense.

Which is what I think of your attempted explanations of things you seem to know nothing about. Like free will.

 

[smaller]

Never said they weren't. But no where in Scripture do we read that he was "made for destruction" as you've said.

God made "all things" and the devil and his messengers get their destruction in the end. However you want to parse the scriptural math it won't change the facts.

Isaiah 54:16
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

 

[FreeGrace]

God made "all things" and the devil and his messengers get their destruction in the end. However you want to parse the scriptural math it won't change the facts.

Isaiah 54:16
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Your failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth is duly noted.

 

[smaller]

Your failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth is duly noted.

If yer gonna believe in God, might as well believe in The God that has Sovereignty over His Own creation and what transpires therein.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Sinthesis]

Destination, at the level of the individual soul, means the individual's outcome absent any change in life trajectory.

Predestination, at the level of the individual soul, means the individual despite every possible change in life trajectory has no hope of a better outcome. This conflicts with Christianity given the change Christ can make in one's life.