Why would anyone think my view would be different than that God is sovereign over His own creation?
Now, what is the purpose for our being predestinated? Do you know?
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dirtfarmer
Member
hello smaller, dirtrfarmer here
in Isaiah 45:7, evil is not moral evil, but natural evil; adversity, calamity, distress or misery. As to Genesis 2:9 Adam would know natural evil; adversity, misery, distress, and separation from the presence of God, not moral evil. Moral evil is caused by human activity and rest on ethics
smaller
Member
We all should know that one. It's much harder to perceive that God Works "all things" after the counsel of His Own Will. Eph. 1:11
smaller
Member
Anything in creation was created by the Creator. This includes all powers. Evil is also a power.
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!
We may think God didn't create evil or that it's not fair that God created evil, and then saves us from evil. But that is exactly how we come to know the reality of both His Divine Sovereignty AND Eternal Mercy.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello smaller, dirtfarmer here
The God that I serve is Holy and just. He did not create moral evil. If the god that you serve created moral evil, then you need to change gods and begin to serve the Holy God.
smaller
Member
Obviously your position has multiple creators then, aka polytheism.
There are no exceptions to 'all things.'
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
To list exceptions we'd have to rewrite the above and many other scriptures similar.
AND, if the above is TRUE, which I believe it is, then everything in creation has been predestined by The Creator.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello smaller, dirtfarmer here
Please explain why there has to be multiple creators because I don't accept that God created MORAL EVIL.
What does the word "create-ktizo" mean? It has several meanings : To make habitable to people, to found as a city, to create.
smaller
Member
God created all things. Evil is a power. Moral evil is part of that power. If this isn't the case then "moral evil" created itself. There really aren't any legitimate ways to separate God, The SOLE Creator away from anything that exists in His creation. It all connects back to God's origination in any case of sights. God is also implicated by non intervention to stop it.
The reality of Divine Sovereignty is that IF God didn't want things the way they were/are/will be, we wouldn't even be here talking about it. And He certainly has the power to change it all as well.
Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Jim Parker
Member
God's being sovereign does not negate man's free will.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello smaller, dirtfarmer here
Did God create man " missing the mark", deficient. Sin is not an addition to man, but is a coming up short of God's standard. Is sin one of the things that God "upholds by the word of his power"? If God created sin, and also destroyed the power of sin through Jesus Christ, doesn't that make Him opposing Himself?
smaller
Member
Of course. Paul tells us "exactly" how Adam and every man since except God Himself in flesh was put together. Specifically to DIE and to FAIL. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. We were also created with 'evil' in our conscience. Romans 7:21, Heb. 10:22. So the notion of "internal morality" and "external morality" should also be examined closely for accuracy. Can anyone be technically "moral" with evil present with them? Nope. Man is factually defiled by internal evil. Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28. This is not an "option." Anyone can examine their own thoughts and derive an "honest" conclusion. Or not. These are all PREDESTINED states for natural man. All the free will boohaa ha won't move that reality one hair's worth.
Let's acknowledge the difference between Creator and created. They are NOT the same.
Of course. There would be no evil power, no evil workings, unless God wanted there to be. We're even told, precisely, why this is done:
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
There were/are/will be no exceptions other than God Himself while He was in flesh.
So, yes, there is A VERY PURPOSEFUL DIVINE INTENTION behind this matter. It's also His Sole Election "who gets the picture" and who doesn't. Romans 9:18. God specifically does NOT show His Mercy to the majority, openly, by faith which is "given to us" by God to perceive it. Others were quite purposefully blinded. Romans 11:8 for example shows that GOD put the spirit of slumber upon people so they couldn't see or believe.
No, it makes all those things HIS servants because HE IS GREATER than the sum of all things. Great enough to work "all things" for good. That's how "powerful" God IS.
Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
I happen to appreciate the fact that God bound me with the spirit of disobedience prior to salvation, (2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2) and showed me with evil present with me after salvation (Romans 7:21), with sin dwelling in my flesh that ISN'T me (Romans 7:17 & 20), planted in dishonor, weakness, corruption in a natural body (1 Cor. 15:42-46) that will die and already IS dead because of sin (Romans 8:10, Col. 3:3), that He would call me to come to Him by faith to know His Very Real Grace and Mercy in Christ and give me the HOPE for eternal life, even though I can't presently perceive what that is entirely. If Paul hadn't already claimed to be the 'chief of sinners' after salvation I'd take that one myself as well. 1 Tim. 1:15. But that would be arrogant. I was not called, as Paul was, to show us these matters by direct revelation of Jesus to him.
These matters above, of which there are FEW who can even come close to fessing up to in the body of believers, were important enough that God even put a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh (2 Cor. 12:7) to remind him that "MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU." Too bad more believers can't get the pictures and look upon ourselves for what we REALLY are, currently. There'd be a lot less baloney in the body of Christ on earth.
I said this:
"Why would anyone think my view would be different than that God is sovereign over His own creation?
Now, what is the purpose for our being predestinated? Do you know?"
So, I will change my question in hopes that I might receive an answer.
Do you know what we have been predestinated for? Please don't just give a flip "yes" kind of answer. If you know for what we have been predestinated for, then tell us what we have been predestinated for.
"Why would anyone think my view would be different than that God is sovereign over His own creation?
Now, what is the purpose for our being predestinated? Do you know?"
This verse doesn't really answer my question. While He certainly does work all things after the counsel of His own will, that doesn't address the purpose or WHY we have been predestinated, or for what purpose.
So, I will change my question in hopes that I might receive an answer.
Do you know what we have been predestinated for? Please don't just give a flip "yes" kind of answer. If you know for what we have been predestinated for, then tell us what we have been predestinated for.
I said this:
"Why would anyone think my view would be different than that God is sovereign over His own creation?"
"Why would anyone think my view would be different than that God is sovereign over His own creation?"
Absolutely correct!! I have not been able to figure out why some Calvinists think that God being sovereign means that He makes all the choices.
smaller
Member
Why bother to try to bait me? YOU and I and every believer who posts here are "predestined" to Romans 8:29. Everything that "all" of us are came out of Him, the Creator, to start with. Eph. 3:9.
I appreciate the pirouette attempt.
It's an answer I'd almost expect any child of God understands.
You stared by trying to deny that God predestines anything. Now it's turned to "why" believers are predestined.
Did God predestine "certain powers and created things" to eternal hell? Absolutely He DID. There is nothing in Gods creation that was not 'in' the Mind of God, eternally, to start with.
Creation is not a "surprise box" for God. A precise working for the Maker to form eternal jewels would be more appropriate sight. Can you even imagine the content of Gods Eternal Jewels or number them? I couldn't even begin to say or see.
Malachi 3:17
And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
smaller
Member
The instant any believer figures out that God IS at work in His Own creation, freewill is seen for the theological joke that it is. But, if God has led some to conclude not to see the obvious, so be it.
Let us all proclaim in our blinded "truth," BLINDED MINDS have freewill!
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
No, in my freewill I do not and can not and will not SEE that there is another will, BLINDING.
What kind of foolishness is freewill when it can't see the obvious? And then, turns to stubborn resistance, outright denying the obvious. Oh, yeah, that's free alright. Free to be blind. Free to be a captured slave of another being that is not ones self. Free to be captured and bound by disobedience.
What I find more interesting is how many believers actually fall for that story.
smh
Chopper
Member
This is a very good thread. I have a few idea's. First, lets look at Romans one verses 18 - 23....
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible verse 20 God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
I have come to appreciate Kenneth Wuest, and his "New Testament Expanded Translation". Dr. Wuest was the Greek Professor at Moody Bible Institute, Chicago until his death in 1962....The following is his translation of verses 18-23.
"For there is revealed God's wrath from heaven upon every lack of reverence and upon every unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness are holding down the truth. Because that which is knowable concerning God is plainly evident to them, for God made it clear to them; for the things concerning Him which are invisible since the creation of the universe are clearly seen, being understood by means of the things that are made, namely, His eternal power and divine Being, resulting in their being without a defense. Because, knowing God, not as God did they glorify Him, nor were they grateful, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their stupid heart was darkened. Asserting themselves to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man and of birds and quadrupeds and of snakes."
The point that I'm making is, Almighty God has made sure that in places like nature and the universe, those created things speak to everyone about the power and Person of the Creator....As verse 20 says, "they are without excuse". So, God doesn't predestinate anyone to hell, a person who ends up in hell, ends up there because that's what they chose to do in refusing to heed God's call to Salvation in His Son, Christ Jesus.
Just my
worth.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible verse 20 God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
I have come to appreciate Kenneth Wuest, and his "New Testament Expanded Translation". Dr. Wuest was the Greek Professor at Moody Bible Institute, Chicago until his death in 1962....The following is his translation of verses 18-23.
"For there is revealed God's wrath from heaven upon every lack of reverence and upon every unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness are holding down the truth. Because that which is knowable concerning God is plainly evident to them, for God made it clear to them; for the things concerning Him which are invisible since the creation of the universe are clearly seen, being understood by means of the things that are made, namely, His eternal power and divine Being, resulting in their being without a defense. Because, knowing God, not as God did they glorify Him, nor were they grateful, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their stupid heart was darkened. Asserting themselves to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man and of birds and quadrupeds and of snakes."
The point that I'm making is, Almighty God has made sure that in places like nature and the universe, those created things speak to everyone about the power and Person of the Creator....As verse 20 says, "they are without excuse". So, God doesn't predestinate anyone to hell, a person who ends up in hell, ends up there because that's what they chose to do in refusing to heed God's call to Salvation in His Son, Christ Jesus.
Just my
worth.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello smaller, dirtfarmer here
I don't want to accuse you or even "put words in you mouth". Are you saying that God created man with no choice but he created to Adam to fall, sin? If that is true, then we are all puppets and we don't choose to love God and we don't really have faith because we were given faith by God's decree and not that God gave us a choice
James 1:13 " Let no man say when he is tempted, I AM TEMPTED OF GOD: For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth any man. You misunderstood scripture or scripture has lied. I will go with scripture being truth.
dirtfarmer
Member
This is a very good thread. I have a few idea's. First, lets look at Romans one verses 18 - 23....
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible verse 20 God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
I have come to appreciate Kenneth Wuest, and his "New Testament Expanded Translation". Dr. Wuest was the Greek Professor at Moody Bible Institute, Chicago until his death in 1962....The following is his translation of verses 18-23.
"For there is revealed God's wrath from heaven upon every lack of reverence and upon every unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness are holding down the truth. Because that which is knowable concerning God is plainly evident to them, for God made it clear to them; for the things concerning Him which are invisible since the creation of the universe are clearly seen, being understood by means of the things that are made, namely, His eternal power and divine Being, resulting in their being without a defense. Because, knowing God, not as God did they glorify Him, nor were they grateful, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their stupid heart was darkened. Asserting themselves to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man and of birds and quadrupeds and of snakes."
The point that I'm making is, Almighty God has made sure that in places like nature and the universe, those created things speak to everyone about the power and Person of the Creator....As verse 20 says, "they are without excuse". So, God doesn't predestinate anyone to hell, a person who ends up in hell, ends up there because that's what they chose to do in refusing to heed God's call to Salvation in His Son, Christ Jesus.
Just my
hello Chopper, dirtfarmer here
I think that is worth a $1, which 50 times more than .02$. You are correct, "they are without excuse".
The fact that God is at work in NO WAY means that man is not free in his own choices. Such a conclusion does not come from Scripture.
Gee, I didn't know that free will was a creature, with eyes and such. Where in the world does this kind of thinking come from? Certainly not the Bible. So, where?
Free will is nothing more than opportunity to choose.
And worth WAY MORE than a penny!! Thanks!This is a very good thread. I have a few idea's. First, lets look at Romans one verses 18 - 23....
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible verse 20 God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
I have come to appreciate Kenneth Wuest, and his "New Testament Expanded Translation". Dr. Wuest was the Greek Professor at Moody Bible Institute, Chicago until his death in 1962....The following is his translation of verses 18-23.
"For there is revealed God's wrath from heaven upon every lack of reverence and upon every unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness are holding down the truth. Because that which is knowable concerning God is plainly evident to them, for God made it clear to them; for the things concerning Him which are invisible since the creation of the universe are clearly seen, being understood by means of the things that are made, namely, His eternal power and divine Being, resulting in their being without a defense. Because, knowing God, not as God did they glorify Him, nor were they grateful, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their stupid heart was darkened. Asserting themselves to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man and of birds and quadrupeds and of snakes."
The point that I'm making is, Almighty God has made sure that in places like nature and the universe, those created things speak to everyone about the power and Person of the Creator....As verse 20 says, "they are without excuse". So, God doesn't predestinate anyone to hell, a person who ends up in hell, ends up there because that's what they chose to do in refusing to heed God's call to Salvation in His Son, Christ Jesus.
Just my