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Did Jesus Die And Get Buried On A Friday ?

tim_from_pa said:
Noble attempt, but not quite. That's 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth., i.e. the grave--- the whale's belly symbolized the grave being dark and confining. If he was interred at sundown, that's really the start of the next day. We cannot count from the death at 3:00 PM until sundown as the first day. Thurs night-day is one, Friday night-day is two, and Saturday night-day is three. Then as Saturday closed, Sunday (the Firstfruits) commensed.

One other thing. Nissan 14th (Passover) never falls on a Thursday according to calendar rules.

I'm a Wednesday guy.
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Hey Tim. I'm not sure where you are getting your Jewish information. I also am not following how you are counting and if you understand how the Jews viewed a day and a night. Any sizable portion of a day (say three hours) can be counted as a day.

Cconcerning Wed. I will use an excerpt from Dr. Martin's site:

Wednesday Not Possible

There is yet a third reason why a Wednesday crucifixion is out of the question. We have available absolute astronomical evidence that Nisan 14 (the day of the crucifixion) could not have occurred on a Wednesday from 29 C.E. to 33 C.E. 1 Oh yes, it has been suggested that an April 25th date for Nisan 14 might have been a possibility in 31 C.E., 2 but this late date is thoroughly unnecessary. It would involve an extra lunar month being added to the previous year when there was no need to do so.
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http://askelm.com/news/n010501.htm

One more thing; my boss, his wife, son and our sectretary all agree Passover can indeed start at Sunset of a Thursday. The only stipulation concerning Passover is when it falls on a Saturday evening. There are rules that need to be followed for obvious reasons.

When Pesach Begins on a Saturday Night

Occasionally, Pesach begins on a motzaei Shabbat, that is, on Saturday night after the sabbath has concluded. This occured in the year 5761 (2001). This complicates the process of preparing for Pesach, because many of the preparations normally undertaken on the day before Pesach cannot be performed on Shabbat.

The Fast of the Firstborn, normally observed on the day before Pesach, is observed on Thursday instead. The search for chametz, normally performed on the night before Pesach, is performed on Thursday night. The seder should be prepared for as much as possible before Shabbat begins, because time should not be taken away from Shabbat to prepare for Pesach. In addition, there are severe complications dealing with the conflict between the requirement of removing chametz no later than mid-morning on Saturday, the prohibition against eating matzah on the day before the seder, and the requirement of eating three meals with bread during Shabbat! For further details, see an excellent summary from the Orthodox Union, the world's largest, oldest and perhaps most respected kosher certification agency.
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http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm#Laws

Peace,
Vic
 
vic said:
Hey Tim. I'm not sure where you are getting your Jewish information. I also am not following how you are counting and if you understand how the Jews viewed a day and a night. Any sizable portion of a day (say three hours) can be counted as a day.
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This is a big post to answer, but I will do my best. This picture is one I made up based on the Wednesday crucifixion. Based on the Jewish feasts days, the burial countdown started the next day, whereas most see the death and burial the same day. This contradicts the purpose of the feast days where Passover was fulfilled in the crucifixion and Unleavened Bread Sabbath the burial.

days2.gif


Cconcerning Wed. I will use an excerpt from Dr. Martin's site:

Wednesday Not Possible

There is yet a third reason why a Wednesday crucifixion is out of the question. We have available absolute astronomical evidence that Nisan 14 (the day of the crucifixion) could not have occurred on a Wednesday from 29 C.E. to 33 C.E. 1 Oh yes, it has been suggested that an April 25th date for Nisan 14 might have been a possibility in 31 C.E., 2 but this late date is thoroughly unnecessary. It would involve an extra lunar month being added to the previous year when there was no need to do so.
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I disagree with that. I have the ability to calculate back that far in time, and 30 AD, and to a lesser extent 33 AD were possible candiates for Passover on Wednesday(Nissan 14).

One more thing; my boss, his wife, son and our sectretary all agree Passover can indeed start at Sunset of a Thursday. The only stipulation concerning Passover is when it falls on a Saturday evening. There are rules that need to be followed for obvious reasons.
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By Passover, I mean Nissan 14. To start on a Thursday night, that means the 15th is actually on a Friday. This never happens because the 1st month to the seventh month are fixed days, and then certain feast days in the seventh month clash with the weekly sabbath. Here is a site that shows Jewish calensdar calculations. For this reason, I disagree with your Jewish friends and the scholar you quoted. Try it for yourself. Has Nissan 15th ever fallen on a Friday? Or, Nissan 14th (the supposed Passover crucifixion day) ever fallen on a Thursday?

http://www.uwm.edu/cgi-bin/corre/calendar
 
Hi again Tim,

It seems we both though long and hard on this subject which tells me... we both questioned "tradition" and refused to accept it. That is good.

I'm about to do something I don't often do. 8-) I concede. :o I'll tell you why...

The first thing is I misunderstood your meaning of "calendar rules". We thought you were referring to some Jewish rule or law that prohibited Pesach Eve from being observed on a a Thursday evening. I now understand after going through 20 or so years of a Jewish calendar that Pesach Eve never fell or falls on that eveng. It's mathamatics, not any Jewish rule.

Secondly, you said, "That's 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth..." A very important observation; we must start counting from the time he was laid in the tomb. not the time HE died. That automatically eliminates taking into account the three or four hours betweem His death and His "burial".

Good job bro. :-D
 
vic said:
Good job bro. :-D
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Thanks. I do believe that the events must all match the requirements.

Basically, there are three criteria that must be matched that I can see:

1) There must be 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb, not from death, not from some other point in time, etc.
2) As I already shown, the prophetic feast days must be fulfilled. What many people do not understand is that Passover/Unleavened Bread were two different days, albeit the one quickly following the other. Most people cannot seem to understand that from God's vantage point that the death day and the time starting the "countdown" in the tomb are not the same day. If they were, then the burial (symbolized by the Unleavened Bread) timing is mismatched, and prophecy would be in error.
3) Not as obvious, but in Mark's account, the women bought spices after the Sabbath, but in Luke's account they prepared the spices then rested on the sabbath. That implies two sabbaths and one "non-sabbath" day inbetween. A Friday crucifixion gives the women no time to buy and prepare them, and a Thursday one (besides breaking calendar rules) implies two consecutive sabbaths.

If you keep these 3 criteria in mind, you can then defend a Wednesday crucifixion --- you can see that there would be a contradiction or some criteria not being met regarding any other day of the week.

The "Companion Bible" (I believe Bullinger comments in there) is a nice mainline bible with comments that supports a Wednesday crucifixion if you are interested in further looking into it.
 
3) Not as obvious, but in Mark's account, the women bought spices after the Sabbath, but in Luke's account they prepared the spices then rested on the sabbath. That implies two sabbaths and one "non-sabbath" day inbetween. A Friday crucifixion gives the women no time to buy and prepare them, and a Thursday one (besides breaking calendar rules) implies two consecutive sabbaths.
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The two Sabbaths in a row wasn't an issue for me. There are many times when Passover Eve fell on our Saturday evening, which meant early preperation for the High Sabbath. What iced it for me was not finding a Passover Eve on a Thurs. After looking at 20 or so consecutive calendars, I could have spend all morning going back and back... and would not have found one instance of the Eve falling on our Thursday. 8-)
 
Lewis W said:
Vic great work dude.
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Thanks, I guess, but it was Tim that presented some indisputable facts which did it for me. Three things; the "calendar rule" he presented, the fulfillment of Jesus' three days and three nights in the heart of the earth and the fact that there were two sabbaths the week He died ought to be more than enough to cause questioning the traditional Friday crucifixion.
 
Yes Vic I also have a big problem with the traditional Friday crucifixion. And I have for almost 10 years. People are being taught the wrong things.
 
Extended from another thread
stranger said:
Hi Vic,

Your proposed table would be:

Wed. . . Christ died about 4.00pm. . . buried (night 1)
Thurs. . Day 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (night 2)
Fri. . . Day 2. . . . . . . . . .. . . . .. . .. .. . .(night 3)
Sat. . . Day 3 . . . rose 'just before sunset'

I don't know what arguments have been brought against this. But yes,
this would be three full days and nights. If our Lord was buried at 6.00pm
and rose at 6.00pm - it would satisfy the belief that the resurrection occurred on the first day of the week - if only just.

I will be interested in what others think. Also Vic is the above table what you had in mind?

In Christ: stranger
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Hmm, let me "post' it out:

Sunset Wed until sunrise Thurs= night one
Sunrise Thurs until sunset= day one
Sunset Thurs until sunrise Fri=night two
Sunrise Fri until sunset Fri= day two
Fri sunset until Sat sunrise=night three
Sat sunrise until sunset= day three

What was proposed is that you can't start to count from the time HE died; you must count from the time He was laid in the tomb, which I believe was right before the sunset of the first sabbath of the week. Remember, it was a Passover week, which would mean there was two 'sabbaths' that week. They aslo seemed to be in a rush to get Him off the cross and into the tomb before the sun set. Time was running out.

That give us the three days and three nights, just as Jesus said. First and foremost, we must satisfiy Jesus' prophecy or else we make it a false prophecy. :o

... and all we can conclude from the Gospels is that He was raised sometime before sunset of the first day of the week.

Hope this helps.

Thanks again Tim.
 
Vic C. said:
Extended from another thread

Hmm, let me "post' it out:

Sunset Wed until sunrise Thurs= night one
Sunrise Thurs until sunset= day one
Sunset Thurs until sunrise Fri=night two
Sunrise Fri until sunset Fri= day two
Fri sunset until Sat sunrise=night three
Sat sunrise until sunset= day three

What was proposed is that you can't start to count from the time HE died; you must count from the time He was laid in the tomb, which I believe was right before the sunset of the first sabbath of the week. Remember, it was a Passover week, which would mean there was two 'sabbaths' that week. They aslo seemed to be in a rush to get Him off the cross and into the tomb before the sun set. Time was running out.

That give us the three days and three nights, just as Jesus said. First and foremost, we must satisfiy Jesus' prophecy or else we make it a false prophecy. :o

... and all we can conclude from the Gospels is that He was raised sometime before sunset of the first day of the week.

Hope this helps.

Thanks again Tim.
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Hi Tim,

The point I am making is fineline. . . Agreed that the count is from burial.

If the burial was 5:59 pm or 6:01pm for arguements sake then the difference for the resurrection is the Sabbath or the first day of the week. Bearing in mind that sunrise and sunset occurs in a range of time - certainly more than two minutes - then both are surely possible. In anticipation of this dilemma I already suggested 6.00pm for the resurrection as a theoretical possibility.

But all this aside the next issue is When was the resurrection first witnessed? On the first day of the week and that was after the empty tomb was visited. . . . So two issues . . when did the resurrection occur? and when was it witnessed?

In Christ: stranger
 
:-D I'm not Tim. I was thanking Tim for making this revelation possible.

I don't think the Bible states the Resurrection was witnessed by anyone. Please corrrect me if I err.

I also can't say when it occurred. All the Bible states is it was before sunrise of the first day of the week. All I know is we are bound to at least three days and three nights. Any more on my part would be speculation.
 
text evidence: when the resurrection was first witnessed

This has been transferred from the other tread.

Here are four accounts from the 4 gospels:

John20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb. . .

Like24:1 But on the first day of the week , at early dawn, they came to the tomb. . .

Mark16:2, . . . Mary came to the tomb first day of the week, and

Matt 28:1 Now late on the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. . .

If Matthews account is undertood that Mary came to the tomb and arrived there still on the Sabbath - then it would be in conflict with the other three accounts. These four verses taken together strongly suggest that the resurrection was first witnessed on the first day of the week.

In Christ: stranger

ps I am getting moderators confused!
 
Hmm, my translation says:

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

NKJV says

1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
 
Hi Vic,

My translation is NASB

PS The empty tomb itself is not a witness to the resurrection - a certain party claimed the body was stolen. The witness to the resurrection is poorly worded - I meant encountering the resurrected Lord is a witness to the resurrection. Sorry about that.

In Christ: stranger
 
I did a web search looking for a chart of some sort on the Passion week. This is what I found.

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/F ... meline.htm

*edit*
As I find other links, I will post them here.
http://www.lifeofchrist.com/life/harmony/

scroll all the way to the bottom for the Passion week
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/harmony/index.html


I was trying to follow a timeline in my own reading this morning, or find a harmony of the Gospels in my books. You really have to pay attention to phrases that refer to the days, the time of day, and terms like 'preparation day, sabbath, first day of the week, to try to get things in order.

Does anyone have a chart that spells it out in terms of events that happened Sunday = Palm Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc.?

I have heard before that Matthew is not written in chronological order. The cursing of the fig tree and the anointing at Bethany are some of the examples that seem to support that. That makes it a bit harder to put together a time line. Any thoughts on this?
 
Vic C. said:
Gabby, Lewis said that at the beginning, when nobody had posted yet. Read the whole thread. 8-)
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I was reading the whole thread. That is when I saw it. :-D

This is a subject that has had the church trying to do the math for two thousand years now.
 
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