did jesus die on the cross or the stake

[jasoncran]

how do recall the events of the death of christ and events to him without being reminded of the actually event via some means of an icon or reading the bible.

I am pretty sure Idols and Icons are not promoted in the bible.

idols and icons, really what about those safety icons (in our cars)that are used to tell us that we have no oil, and so on. those are called icons, not lights in some manuals.

 

[Mohrb]

If that was how He sacrificed Himself for my sins, yes. But it was the brutal, vicious cross that was the custom of the Romans that He willingly subjected Himself to for them.

The cross really didn't do anything but make him uncomfortable, though. His torture before being nailed up was just as much part of his execution as actually being nailed up. In themselves, a nail through the hands and feet aren't fatal... but that combined with the various other wounds that were inflicted, left out to the elements is what caused his death.

Back to my first job. When I spoke with this woman, she asked, "If your brother was killed with a gun, would you hang a gun around your neck?" Along with your statement, it sounds like a well covered retort.

That was a point made in a watchtower quite some time ago. It's quite powerful and applicable, so yea, a lot of people who don't use crosses use this illustration.

So, how would you respond? If it were your personal friend killed today... would you wear an icon of the instrument of their death to remember them by? Or, would you remember -them-?

Specifically... say you're in a bank and it starts to get robbed... on their way out, the robbers open fire to cause panic to aid in their escape, and your friend takes a bullet for you. You'd likely sad about their death, yet thankful for their sacrifice to save your life. So, would you remember them by wearing a small version of the gun?

JW's sticking their heels in the ground on the cross not being used in His execution is stubborn and exclusionary in and of itself. Making an issue of how we remember Jesus' sacrifice for our sins takes it to another level.

We acknowledge his sacrifice... however, the direct translation for the word in the bible is "pale" or "stake" ... there's no grammatic indication of a cross shape. And, considering that historically crosses have been used in at least three other pagan religions, we don't see the need to adopt their holy symbol when there's no reason to do so. Is it not equally stubborn for people to say "We believe Jesus' stake looked like this holy symbol, and it's IMPOSSIBLE and BLASPHEMOUS to suggest that it may have looked any other way."

 

[Mohrb]

Do you consider your "check engine now" light to be holy? Do you worship a deity through it? On your computer's desktop there are also many icons.

Different type of "icon."

Sort of like the commandment not to make images of things flying in the air or on the ground or in the sea... Pictures aren't in themselves bad, but images that steal worship away from God is. Worshipping through those images are unnecessary because they aren't your intermediary. Christ is. And you don't need an intermediary for the intermediary.

 

[jasoncran]

Do you consider your "check engine now" light to be holy? Do you worship a deity through it? On your computer's desktop there are also many icons.

Different type of "icon."

Sort of like the commandment not to make images of things flying in the air or on the ground or in the sea... Pictures aren't in themselves bad, but images that steal worship away from God is. Worshipping through those images are unnecessary because they aren't your intermediary. Christ is. And you don't need an intermediary for the intermediary.

but is reverence worship to you? you claim that is worship when i dont " worship" the cross.

you reverence your father on the earth via paying respect?

 

[jasoncran]

If that was how He sacrificed Himself for my sins, yes. But it was the brutal, vicious cross that was the custom of the Romans that He willingly subjected Himself to for them.

The cross really didn't do anything but make him uncomfortable, though. His torture before being nailed up was just as much part of his execution as actually being nailed up. In themselves, a nail through the hands and feet aren't fatal... but that combined with the various other wounds that were inflicted, left out to the elements is what caused his death.

Back to my first job. When I spoke with this woman, she asked, "If your brother was killed with a gun, would you hang a gun around your neck?" Along with your statement, it sounds like a well covered retort.

That was a point made in a watchtower quite some time ago. It's quite powerful and applicable, so yea, a lot of people who don't use crosses use this illustration.

as a former jw, i find odd that the jw's need to have someone tell them what the bible says. Does the tract society still discourage reading the bible alone , even the nwt?

they did when i was with them

they also were against jw's being and doing these:

cops,(that has changed)

giving and recieving blood. that plasma argurment is weak as you can get hepatitis through plasma as well and other things and aids

college
working for the governemt)that has changed

the socitey used to try to date the return of christ! it was believed to be by the year 2000 when i was in the kindgdom hall

 

[Mohrb]

The society has shown that there ARE potential down sides to being a cop. You may be forced into a decision where you may have to take a person's life... that's a nasty decision to have to make. That doesn't mean that JWs CAN'T be cops, or that cops CAN'T be JWs.

The society's shown that there are POTENTIAL down sides to college. Some people going to college may be sucked into a fraternity that has less than exemplary morality. Sometimes people get so caught up in college that they spend nearly a decade spending all their time studying to get the best job they can, then spend their entire lives addicted to their jobs, never leaving time for family or spirituality. This certainly isn't always the case, but people becoming "workoholics" is something people should be careful of. I went to college and have a degree and work 10 hour shifts... but I do it because it lets me only work 4 days a week, which lets me overall be more spiritually productive. I also lived off-campus and didn't take part in any fraternities.

Warning against -potential- hazards is not the same as "controlling people and not allowing them to read their bibles." If you took their -advice- to be more than it was, you missed the entire point.

 

[jasoncran]

How long have you been a jw? i was in the kingdom hall in the late 70's(before the nwt) as a babe then the 80's as tween and late 80's and early 90's as an teen/adult. i know much has changed. that i will concede.

are these books still around?
my book of bible stories
you can live forever
jesus christ the greatest man that ever lived

revalation

on the cop thing i asked a jw that i worked with on that, he also told me that they cant teach the bible or something to that effect.

 

[jasoncran]

when i was in the kingdom hall i was told not to go college, that much is clear. they may have been in error then.

just as you may not recall when the watchtower was free along with the awake.

if you havent been around when i was attending the kingdom hall.

now my last response to you is done, no offense.

pm if you wish to ask me more.

 

[Mohrb]

The society's always warned that there are -potential- hazards in college, but never said that "JWs are forbidden from going." If you were told that, whoever told you was acting inappropriately.

Any profession has potential spiritual hazards, that doesn't mean that they're forbidden. The only thing that the society puts it's foot down on is that people just plain aren't supposed to join the military. 1: you run a serious risk of putting yourself in a situation where you may be ordered to contribute to the killing of innocent people, 2: you'll be expected to pledge your allegiance to a human government. Governments should be respected, but our allegiance is already pledged to God.

The watchtower/awakes/all publications are still free. I've been around since the 80s, and remember when we asked for a 25 cent donation for the magazines (still wasn't "required" but we actually brought donations up at one point).

 

[jasoncran]

The society's always warned that there are -potential- hazards in college, but never said that "JWs are forbidden from going." If you were told that, whoever told you was acting inappropriately.

Any profession has potential spiritual hazards, that doesn't mean that they're forbidden. The only thing that the society puts it's foot down on is that people just plain aren't supposed to join the military. 1: you run a serious risk of putting yourself in a situation where you may be ordered to contribute to the killing of innocent people, 2: you'll be expected to pledge your allegiance to a human government. Governments should be respected, but our allegiance is already pledged to God.

The watchtower/awakes/all publications are still free. I've been around since the 80s, and remember when we asked for a 25 cent donation for the magazines (still wasn't "required" but we actually brought donations up at one point).

cops are SWORN in not just (told you are hired) on a job and you kill as a cop, and cops are often working with the military. you see each state has the national guard that watches the drug houses. if they are big enough to be a major hit. so the military and the law enforcement often work together, especially in the disaster response. i am in the Florida national guard and have trained with and worked with local law enforcement officers. we have alot cops in the guard, but when the hurricanes hit we work with them.

hmm i seem to recall being told i had to pay for the watchtowers in the 90's. i may be wrong. i will see a jw on my route i wil ask.