did jesus die on the cross or the stake

[jasoncran]

Do they deny that Romans generally used the cross for execution, or do they just say that Jesus was not hung on a cross?

they deny what archeologists have said, that they used the crucifix.

 

[Ahuli]

I've always known about the JW claim of the stake. But somethings not connecting. Why do they force this issue? I'm not sure I can even frame the question right. If they're concerned with the cross becoming an idol, couldn't that happen with a stake? I just don't understand why you would have to believe one over the other.

To me there's no point besides giving them a reason to say Christians are wrong. Do they give any offense for this belief as opposed to defense of it?

they believe that cross is a pagan symbol originally from the ankh.

It IS a pagan symbol, a pagan tool, employed by pagan Rome, a shameful thing, endured by our Lord.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

Do some research if this is not enough. However, be comforted that He did overcome. God bless.

And who cares what JWs or any other cult has to say. HE will come and all shall answer.

 

[jasoncran]

i started this thread a while ago to show some that thought the jw werent a cult. i was a jw.

 

[Ahuli]

i started this thread a while ago to show some that thought the jw werent a cult. i was a jw.

How did you escape? And did you suffer a long time?

 

[jasoncran]

i started this thread a while ago to show some that thought the jw werent a cult. i was a jw.

How did you escape? And did you suffer a long time?

they aint like you think they are often out in society. i work a few of them.

 

[Ahuli]

i started this thread a while ago to show some that thought the jw werent a cult. i was a jw.

How did you escape? And did you suffer a long time?

they aint like you think they are often out in society. i work a few of them.

I've known some. They project the idea that those not like them are inferior and their condescending demeanor is awkward.

 

[jasoncran]

aint that the truth at times.

 

[Mohrb]

Jesus died on a stake. Simple as that. Now, that stake MAY have had a crossbeam... either "most of the way up" like a lower case "t" per the most common depiction of crosses... or all the way at the top for the sake of simplicity, like an upper case "T" as many scholars believe. ... Or it's perfectly possible that the stake Jesus died on may not have had a crossbeam.

Does the shape of the object Jesus died upon really make a difference? If he were executed on an "X" instead... would that invalidate your faith? IMO, it doesn't matter. It was an instrument of torture, no more special than the whips or nails or spear or crown of thorns. I don't see why so much emphasis is put on that particular tool.

 

[jasoncran]

Jesus died on a stake. Simple as that. Now, that stake MAY have had a crossbeam... either "most of the way up" like a lower case "t" per the most common depiction of crosses... or all the way at the top for the sake of simplicity, like an upper case "T" as many scholars believe. ... Or it's perfectly possible that the stake Jesus died on may not have had a crossbeam.

Does the shape of the object Jesus died upon really make a difference? If he were executed on an "X" instead... would that invalidate your faith? IMO, it doesn't matter. It was an instrument of torture, no more special than the whips or nails or spear or crown of thorns. I don't see why so much emphasis is put on that particular tool.

because the crucify is a word properly translated in the bible , if it just a stake then what we have is an erroneus biblical translation and also a pagan addition to the bible. the jw see the cross as an idol connected with human sacrifice(which the bablylonians used it for that) and that i wasnt the way the lord died when archealogy has confirmed that lord was most likely killed on the roman cross. the romans took the idea of the babylonian cross and made it for excution.

 

[Mohrb]

because the crucify is a word properly translated in the bible , if it just a stake then what we have is an erroneus biblical translation and also a pagan addition to the bible. the jw see the cross as an idol connected with human sacrifice(which the bablylonians used it for that) and that i wasnt the way the lord died when archealogy has confirmed that lord was most likely killed on the roman cross. the romans took the idea of the babylonian cross and made it for excution.

Well... that's where interlinear bibles come in handy.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /mar15.pdf

The word translated as "Cross" (for example in Mark 15:30) is "staurou"... which literally translates as a "pale," "stake." or even "tree." Outside of the bible no translator would translate this word as "Cross." Notice the -literal- translation in the bluish color directly under the word is "pale." However, the word "cross" in green shows that this is the word they chose to go with even though it isn't the literal translation.

If you look earlier at verses such as 13, the word translated as "Crucify" is stauroson. Which, again, literally means "Impale" ... not "crucify." Grammatically, there's no indication what the stake Jesus died upon looked like. Insisting that it have a crossbeam 70% of the way up rather than at the very top or no crossbeam at all is no more or less than an arbitrary guess. It's no more or less valid than insisting that the cross must have been pine vs. oak.

Here's an interesting article (although it's from a Wiki site, not exactly a "reputable source" ... but still worth the read)

The term crucifiction refers to using an instrument with a cross bar attached, that is, a cross, for execution.
The term impalement refers to the use of a single upright pole, with hands attached to the pole over the head using a single nail, and both feet attched to the pole also using a single nail.
There are several reasons that indicate that Jesus was implaled on a single upright pole, rather than a cross shaped instrument.
In the scriptues, the Hebrew and Greek words used to describe the instrument of Jesus' execution were stauros and xylon. Both words mean a single piece of wood or a pole. The word crux, meaning cross does not appear in the origional texts. Latin translators decided to use the word crux when translating stauros and xylon several hundred years after Jesus died.
The Romans did not use crosses for execution, but in Jesus's day, they would use a single upright pole, and there is no indication that there was anything different about what Jesus was executed on.
Also, the use of a cross shaped instrument, with arms outstretched, is not medically sound. That particular method of execution relies on the person suffocating to death. In the Roman method of impalement, both hands were nailed to the pole above the head and both feet were nailed to the pole also with a single nail. When the pole was placed in the ground, the victim would be gasping for air as the airways were now restricted. To get a single breath, the victim would have to push themselves up with their legs to be able to take each breath. As their legs became fatigued and the wounds on their feet became too excrutiatingly painful to do this, they would no longer have the energy to be able to fight for a breath of air. Eventually they would suffocate to death. If any still were living toward the end of the day, the Roman soldier would come along and, using a heavy instrument, break the legs of the victim to speed up the suffocation of the victim.
If there was a cross bar, and the arms were outstretched, as many teach, the victim would be able to suspend their weight on the outstretched arms, and breath indefiinately. Even breaking the victim's legs, as the Romans would sometimes have to do, would not speed up the suffocation process.
JW's use the term impalement when referring to Jesus' execution rather than cucifiction, because it more accurately describes the method used to put Jesus to death.

... in the end, the reason JWs steer clear from using a cross as a holy symbol is because crosses have been used as holy symbols in pagan religion long before Christ came. Look up celtic crosses, egyptian ankhs, and the symbol of the Babylonian deity "Tammuz" for yourself for a few illustrations. Jesus MAY have died on a stake with a crossbeam... but considering there's no direct evidence... JWs just shy away from something so similar to pagan symbols and go with the simple, direct translation, without adding details.

 

[jasoncran]

uh, archeology buddy. i was a jw i know most of their doctrine. are you one?

archelogy confirms the death of jesus on a cross not a stake. that nwt is a bad translation. the jw believed he died on the cross up till the 80's if i recall correctly. the early watchtowers show jesus dying on the cross.

 

[Mohrb]

What about "archeology?"

That seems to indicate physical evidence. Have you found documentation or physical evidence of the specific stake Jesus died upon to prove whether or not it had a crossbeam?

I'm aware that crossbeams have been used in the past... but people weren't hung on a completed cross. People were marched up to their upright stake already tied to a temporary crossbeam... and they (with their crossbeam) were attached to the upright stake. (similar to how the other two mean were lead to their execution in the movie "Passion of the Christ." The suggestion that he was lead up carrying a whole cross (stake and all)... is a complete fabrication and has no historic accuracy. Jesus was likely impaled exactly the same as the other two.

 

[happyjoy]

uh, archeology buddy. i was a jw i know most of their doctrine. are you one?

archelogy confirms the death of jesus on a cross not a stake. that nwt is a bad translation. the jw believed he died on the cross up till the 80's if i recall correctly. the early watchtowers show jesus dying on the cross.

First I see the point of the JW concerning the cross symbol being seen by some as an idol to be worshiped. The cross is a symbol that is portrayed in popular culture as having real physical power. In vampire movies they hurt the vampires. It is in some ways an idol.

Secondly, and I hope you don't find this to be an attack, when you discuss things you often claim to be what ever it is the discussion is about then appeal to your own claimed authority. So far I have noticed you have been JW, Pagan, Jew, Bi, wartime soldier, grandpa, disabled. I am not saying you are lying that any of these things are true, but I think you are falling into the appeal to authority logical fallacy more and more often. Not only your own claimed authority, but you have claimed the authority of others as well.

 

[Mohrb]

Also, statues of crosses (with or without Jesus on them) all over churches... especially in catholicism, people walk in, draw a cross on their chest, then bow before the cross before they take their seat, and open their bible with a cross on it, then listen to a man with crosses all over his robes speak, while holding onto their own cross necklace. Of course, not all catholics do ALL of these things every time they go to church. But this symbol is in too many places not to be considered an idol.

Just the fact that people hold their cross necklaces, or their prayer beads with crosses on them... or kneel before a cross as they pray... it's inarguably a physical representation of a deity through which worship is directed. No one believe that the average person "worships the cross itself" ... but why must God be worshiped through a physical item? The cross isn't your intermediary to God... Jesus is. And you don't need an intermediary for your intermediary.

 

[jasoncran]

i dont have a cross on me nor in my house to worship. i call on jesus. not all of the christian faiths pray to the cross. nor worship it. it is used in my chruch as a reminder of what was done for us. to make us think of the death and ressurection.

 

[Mohrb]

i dont have a cross on me nor in my house to worship. i call on jesus. not all of the christian faiths pray to the cross. nor worship it. it is used in my chruch as a reminder of what was done for us. to make us think of the death and ressurection.

The test would be this: Would you be OK with your church replacing the cross with a spear and a scourge? Would these be acceptable reminders as well, or do you consider the cross to be holy in and of itself?

If you treat it as a mundane (although effective) reminder... probably nothing wrong with it. But, MOST people I've spoken to would never substitute the cross for any other reminder. And a cross of any other shape (for example with the crossbeam all the way at the top instead of midway, or lacking a crossbeam at all) would be considered blasphemous! If you would be equally reminded of Jesus' sacrifice regardless of what someone thought the torture stake looked like... it may very well be harmless. But most people find that shape to be more important than they care to admit.

... it's very similar to an ex-girlfriend I had at one point. We were considering getting married, but she was really into Christmas stuff... I wanted to compromise by saying we could still have a family get together, and I didn't even mind the lights... I just didn't want a Christmas tree due to my understanding of the tree's origins. She insisted that the tree was just a place to put presents, so the origin shouldn't matter... I suggested that if it was just a place, we could have any sort of other place as long as it wasn't a tree. She ended up getting very upset because without the tree "it wasn't Christmas." ... I don't think anyone "worships Christmas trees" any more than they "worship crosses" ... but when symbols become THAT important to you, it can be concerning.

 

[jasoncran]

that jw logic. you must be a jw. does one need the bible then? isnt that worship too. after all its just god word,and not the lord itself. and that can be an idol too.

they are some that worship the bible, very rare but is around.

how do recall the events of the death of christ and events to him without being reminded of the actually event via some means of an icon or reading the bible. when you read the bible on this doesnt the story come to life and cause to see the torture and the cruficixation of christ? is that not the same.

if we take what your really saying to the extreme, then we shouldnt use the days of the week, they have paganistic origins.

 

[jasoncran]

What about "archeology?"

That seems to indicate physical evidence. Have you found documentation or physical evidence of the specific stake Jesus died upon to prove whether or not it had a crossbeam?

I'm aware that crossbeams have been used in the past... but people weren't hung on a completed cross. People were marched up to their upright stake already tied to a temporary crossbeam... and they (with their crossbeam) were attached to the upright stake. (similar to how the other two mean were lead to their execution in the movie "Passion of the Christ." The suggestion that he was lead up carrying a whole cross (stake and all)... is a complete fabrication and has no historic accuracy. Jesus was likely impaled exactly the same as the other two.

that is because the passion has rcc doctrines in it. not all biblical accuracy.

 

[happyjoy]

how do recall the events of the death of christ and events to him without being reminded of the actually event via some means of an icon or reading the bible.

I am pretty sure Idols and Icons are not promoted in the bible.

 

[Mike]

The test would be this: Would you be OK with your church replacing the cross with a spear and a scourge?

If that was how He sacrificed Himself for my sins, yes. But it was the brutal, vicious cross that was the custom of the Romans that He willingly subjected Himself to for them.

I worked with a JW in my first job out of college. It was revealing to say the least. I was not exposed to them until then. I had a high school friend who was a Witness, but at the time, we were both very casual in our walks, and the subject wasn't an issue. He didn't care much about it, and neither did I

Back to my first job. When I spoke with this woman, she asked, "If your brother was killed with a gun, would you hang a gun around your neck?" Along with your statement, it sounds like a well covered retort.

Another issue that JW's put out there and refuse to assimilate with Christians. I don't have a cross around my neck, but I've always thought about getting one. The cross represents a reminder of the savage death of our Savior. It's a reminder of the most brutal form of death Jesus subjected Himself to. Not only did the Creator lower Himself to that of His creation, He dwelt among the poorest of them, and he allowed the most cruel form of execution known to man to be cast upon Him.

If it were a gun, a spear, a noose or anything else, I want to be reminded of the pain and death he endured for me and because of me. That sacrifice should never be out of mind. It also is symbolic of His resurrection, which was the climax of all days. JW's sticking their heels in the ground on the cross not being used in His execution is stubborn and exclusionary in and of itself. Making an issue of how we remember Jesus' sacrifice for our sins takes it to another level.

In regards to your suggestion that we take up a 1-on-1 debate, I'll PM you. I'm praying on it. To the extent that you are on a Christian forum, I'm sure you anticipated the flurry of reactions you are getting. While you know how I feel about our spiritual relationship, I admire your willingness to engage and the amicable way with which you do it.

Mike