Did Jesus expect God to save him?

[bodhitharta]

If so, why would he expect to be saved?

In the Garden of Gesthemane

Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version)

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Why would Jesus want to be saved when for one many here believe he is God so being God why would he want to thwart his own plan of salvation and then we have

Mark 15:33-35 (King James Version)

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Now it seems to me that if Jesus is God especially after coming to the conclusion in the garden he would be fulfilling his own will so did Jesus expect to be saved?

 

[Tina]

^

Looks to me like you are trying to poke holes into Christianity.

You only looked at the first part of Mark 14:36 ... let's look at the second half to see what He really said :-

Mark 14:36 (NKJV)
And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.â€Â

As a human, He expressed a great deal of grief and sorrow over what He was about to go through, but as the Lord and Son of God, He submitted Himself to the Father by saying .. "nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will".


Mark 15:34 (NKJV)
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?†which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?â€Â

Here again, Jesus was still Human and was pouring out His Soul before God. It does not mean He expected to be saved.

This was the pivotal moment in history as Jesus bore God's curse and judgement for sin for all mankind. Jesus experienced separation from God when He took the place of sinners in this crucial moment.

-

 

[francisdesales]

If so, why would he expect to be saved?

In the Garden of Gesthemane

Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version)

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Why would Jesus want to be saved when for one many here believe he is God so being God why would he want to thwart his own plan of salvation and then we have

Mark 15:33-35 (King James Version)

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Now it seems to me that if Jesus is God especially after coming to the conclusion in the garden he would be fulfilling his own will so did Jesus expect to be saved?

Jesus' express purpose of becoming man was to show us Who God is in visible form. To show us He is a God of Love. And there is no greater love than this, but to die for one's friends. Jesus came to die, why would He "expect" to be saved from His purpose??? The scene in the Garden is an expression of His humanity, that naturally is fearful of the pain of His impending death. However, He completely gives in - rather than calling upon the "hosts of the Lord" to save Him. Was Mohemmed so trustful of God? History doesn't look too kindly upon Mohemmed's motives. When things were going badly, sure, he prayed and begged God for help. But when things got better, he wiped out all opposition to his rule by conquest...

Again, this is not the way of the prophet, OT or NT...

Mark 15:34 is the beginning of Psalm 22, which, when you read it, is about the trust of the man of God who continues to trust, despite what appears to be an abandonment by God. His apostles do not rescue Him, no angels are called upon. The Apostles have been prepared for this by Jesus telling them that he WAS to die, and that this would be beneficial to the Apostles (as He states in the Last Supper Discourse). Jesus is vindicated a few days later upon His resurrection...

Regards

 

[Heidi]

If so, why would he expect to be saved?

In the Garden of Gesthemane

Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version)

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Why would Jesus want to be saved when for one many here believe he is God so being God why would he want to thwart his own plan of salvation and then we have

Mark 15:33-35 (King James Version)

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Now it seems to me that if Jesus is God especially after coming to the conclusion in the garden he would be fulfilling his own will so did Jesus expect to be saved?

No. Jesus was exposing is humanity. Again, interpret scripture with other scripture. Do not take each verse out of context with the rest of the bible.
The bible is one long sentence. So if you take any verse out of context with the rest of the bible, you are misquoting God's word.

 

[bodhitharta]

^

Looks to me like you are trying to poke holes into Christianity.

You only looked at the first part of Mark 14:36 ... let's look at the second half to see what He really said :-

Mark 14:36 (NKJV)
And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.â€Â

As a human, He expressed a great deal of grief and sorrow over what He was about to go through, but as the Lord and Son of God, He submitted Himself to the Father by saying .. "nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will".


Mark 15:34 (NKJV)
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?†which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?â€Â

Here again, Jesus was still Human and was pouring out His Soul before God. It does not mean He expected to be saved.

This was the pivotal moment in history as Jesus bore God's curse and judgement for sin for all mankind. Jesus experienced separation from God when He took the place of sinners in this crucial moment.

-

So are you saying that he did not expect to be saved when he cried in the garden? If he is God wouldn't he already know what the outcome would be? And, after saying "not his will, but the Fathers" why would he then turn around and ask "Why he was being forsaken?" It seems to me he was expecting to be saved, can you not see that? I mean seriously you don't see that even a little?

 

[bodhitharta]

If so, why would he expect to be saved?

In the Garden of Gesthemane

Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version)

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Why would Jesus want to be saved when for one many here believe he is God so being God why would he want to thwart his own plan of salvation and then we have

Mark 15:33-35 (King James Version)

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Now it seems to me that if Jesus is God especially after coming to the conclusion in the garden he would be fulfilling his own will so did Jesus expect to be saved?

Jesus' express purpose of becoming man was to show us Who God is in visible form. To show us He is a God of Love. And there is no greater love than this, but to die for one's friends. Jesus came to die, why would He "expect" to be saved from His purpose??? The scene in the Garden is an expression of His humanity, that naturally is fearful of the pain of His impending death. However, He completely gives in - rather than calling upon the "hosts of the Lord" to save Him. Was Mohemmed so trustful of God? History doesn't look too kindly upon Mohemmed's motives. When things were going badly, sure, he prayed and begged God for help. But when things got better, he wiped out all opposition to his rule by conquest...

Again, this is not the way of the prophet, OT or NT...

Mark 15:34 is the beginning of Psalm 22, which, when you read it, is about the trust of the man of God who continues to trust, despite what appears to be an abandonment by God. His apostles do not rescue Him, no angels are called upon. The Apostles have been prepared for this by Jesus telling them that he WAS to die, and that this would be beneficial to the Apostles (as He states in the Last Supper Discourse). Jesus is vindicated a few days later upon His resurrection...

Regards

Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

So he did expect to be saved then, right?

Also , why did he not see himself as God at that time since many believe here that Jesus is God? Is he crying out in disappointment to that which he is himself(God)?

 

[bodhitharta]

If so, why would he expect to be saved?

In the Garden of Gesthemane

Mark 14:35-37 (King James Version)

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Why would Jesus want to be saved when for one many here believe he is God so being God why would he want to thwart his own plan of salvation and then we have

Mark 15:33-35 (King James Version)

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Now it seems to me that if Jesus is God especially after coming to the conclusion in the garden he would be fulfilling his own will so did Jesus expect to be saved?

No. Jesus was exposing is humanity. Again, interpret scripture with other scripture. Do not take each verse out of context with the rest of the bible.
The bible is one long sentence. So if you take any verse out of context with the rest of the bible, you are misquoting God's word.

So you are saying that Jesus was pretending to want to be saved? Why the crying and sweating like blood? Remember you say that he asserted that he was God although I don't believe he made such assertions but now you have a problem here because there was no guile found in his mouth which would mean if he said it was not his will then he meant it and if he says to God he wanted to be saved he meant it because Jesus is not a hypocrite. So , did Jesus expect to be saved or was he pretending when he said it was not his will

 

[Tina]

^

Bodi ,

When Jesus cried "why have You forsaken me" , bear in mind that He was still FULLY HUMAN at that moment. He felt PHYSICAL pain and feelings of abandonment by His Father. Remember that He was very close to the Father both physically and spiritually during His walk on earth. But in that moment of crucifixion, the Father chose to step back and remain silent while His one and only precious Son bore the sins and curses for all mankind. Do you think the Father backed off just so that He could watch and gloat while His Son was dying in pain? Of course not , but He had to do what He had to do , and that is only for the redemption of His people of this world.

As humans all of us cry out to God in our dire moments of desperation. Christ was no different during that point in time. If you claim that you are a "Christian", you ought to understand this aspect of Christianity, if you don't understand but keep arguing about it, then I very much doubt that you are a "Christian" as you claim to be. Your arguments are no different from that of various other cults because your doubts and skepticisms about the truths of God's Word far outweighs your "beliefs" that you claim to have.


....... ....... ......

 

[bodhitharta]

^

Bodi ,

When Jesus cried "why have You forsaken me" , bear in mind that He was still FULLY HUMAN at that moment. He felt PHYSICAL pain and feelings of abandonment by His Father. Remember that He was very close to the Father both physically and spiritually during His walk on earth. But in that moment of crucifixion, the Father chose to step back and remain silent while His one and only precious Son bore the sins and curses for all mankind. Do you think the Father backed off just so that He could watch and gloat while His Son was dying in pain? Of course not , but He had to do what He had to do , and that is only for the redemption of His people of this world.

As humans all of us cry out to God in our dire moments of desperation. Christ was no different during that point in time. If you claim that you are a "Christian", you ought to understand this aspect of Christianity, if you don't understand but keep arguing about it, then I very much doubt that you are a "Christian" as you claim to be. Your arguments are no different from that of various other cults because your doubts and skepticisms about the truths of God's Word far outweighs your "beliefs" that you claim to have.


....... ....... ......

Tina,

2 points one you don't believe that Jesus was ever fully human without being fully God so being that he was fully God as well at the time according to you so when you say the father backed up are you implying that Jesus was not God for that period of time?

The second point is you yourself say that his pain was real, so I ask you once again when he asked to be saved did he expect to be saved? If you say no he did not expect to be saved then why did he feel forsaken? You can only "feel" abandoned if you expected not to be abandoned, right?

 

[Tina]

2 points one you don't believe that Jesus was ever fully human without being fully God so being that he was fully God as well at the time according to you so when you say the father backed up are you implying that Jesus was not God for that period of time?

The answer to your question can be found in this scripture :-

Philippians 2:5-8
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death  even death on a cross !

The second point is you yourself say that his pain was real, so I ask you once again when he asked to be saved did he expect to be saved? If you say no he did not expect to be saved then why did he feel forsaken? You can only "feel" abandoned if you expected not to be abandoned, right?

Of course He did NOT expect to be saved. He only cried out in human weakness. At that point on the cross His made Himself nothing and as a human like you and I , surely we'd feel abandoned by God in our desperate moments. If He had assumed His superior nature and equality with God, He would have just remained silent on the Cross looking cool like Superman .. :shades .... He could have easily saved Himself if He wanted to, given that the criminal next to Him, passers-by, soldiers and crowds all sneered at Him, mocked Him and challenged Him to save Himself.

Matthew 27:39-40
And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.â€Â

Mark 15:29-31
And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself, and come down from the cross !†Likewise the chief priests also, mocking among themselves with the scribes, said, “He saved others; Himself He cannot save.

Luke 23:36-37
The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine, and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.â€Â

Luke 23:39
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.ÀÂ

.

 

[bodhitharta]

2 points one you don't believe that Jesus was ever fully human without being fully God so being that he was fully God as well at the time according to you so when you say the father backed up are you implying that Jesus was not God for that period of time?

The answer to your question can be found in this scripture :-

Philippians 2:5-8
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death  even death on a cross !

The second point is you yourself say that his pain was real, so I ask you once again when he asked to be saved did he expect to be saved? If you say no he did not expect to be saved then why did he feel forsaken? You can only "feel" abandoned if you expected not to be abandoned, right?

Of course He did NOT expect to be saved. He only cried out in human weakness. At that point on the cross His made Himself nothing and as a human like you and I , surely we'd feel abandoned by God in our desperate moments. If He had assumed His superior nature and equality with God, He would have just remained silent on the Cross looking cool like Superman .. :shades .... He could have easily saved Himself if He wanted to, given that the criminal next to Him, passers-by, soldiers and crowds all sneered at Him, mocked Him and challenged Him to save Himself.

Matthew 27:39-40
And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.â€Â

Mark 15:29-31
And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself, and come down from the cross !†Likewise the chief priests also, mocking among themselves with the scribes, said, “He saved others; Himself He cannot save.

Luke 23:36-37
The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine, and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.â€Â

Luke 23:39
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.â€Â

.

So crying out in "Human weakness" is not true expectation of salvation from God?

So why should anyone cry out to God expecting to be saved when you say it is just our human weakness?

 

[joechrist]

The answer to your question is very simple. Of course he expected God to save him. It seems many people really stretch their imaginations to come up with an explanation to fit their preconvieved belief. Jesus believed he was here to serve a purpose, which he did very successfully. He spread the message of God's love and revealed to us the true characteristics of God, which were quite different than the accepted beliefs of that time. It caused so much controversy at the time that he was killed for it. All you have to do is read what Jesus said and you understand what was going on. Its very simple. Jesus believed he was here to fulfill a purpose for God. He did not expect to be killed. When he asked God to "take this cup from me", he was showing that he felt his purpose was becoming too difficult and may be more than he could bear. Jesus had faith that God would save him from his fate because he knew he was not finished fulfilling his purpose. He had faith all the way until his last breath, when he finally cried out and asked God, If I am here to spread your message and to change humanity, why are you letting me die? Why have you forsaken me?

Please give it up with all these wild explanations about separation, feeling the burden of the worlds sin, or the most ridiculous, God couldn't bear to look because of all the sin so he had to turn away. You have no idea what God was doing or thinking. You're not doing anyone any good by creating your own fantasy stories which are completely out of line with what the bible tells us. Stick with the words of Jesus and please don't conjure up any outlandish ideas.

 

[Tina]

So crying out in "Human weakness" is not true expectation of salvation from God?

So why should anyone cry out to God expecting to be saved when you say it is just our human weakness?

We are NOT Jesus and we will never be like Him. God does not expect of us what He expected of Jesus. Will any human today be able to endure the torture and pain that Jesus went through ?
Christ has done for us what needs to be done according to His Father's purpose. IT IS FINISHED !

When we cry out to God today out of desperation, God promises to hear us and save us. He promises never to leave us or forsake us. He does not expect us to endure excruciating pain like His Son did.

And one more thing ....

I think you getting yourself confused with the word "salvation" ....
Salvation is for man. Not for Jesus. Jesus did not need salvation. He IS our Salvation.

.

 

[Hawkins]

And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

He left a clue there with the message that "no one truly understand what my suffering is". At the same time it says that, "someday some of you will finally understand what's going on".


I think that He hinted this in Matthew 25, both the saved and the unsaved are clueless about what He said.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'


And I also think that He allowed Paul to make a guess, but it doesn't seem that Paul could figure it out because Paul was too close to the event to draw a correct conclusion. You may need 2000 or more years history away from the crucifixion for a correct view to be possible. People in majority will be kept blind about it till the judgment day as described in Matthew 25.

 

[bodhitharta]

So crying out in "Human weakness" is not true expectation of salvation from God?

So why should anyone cry out to God expecting to be saved when you say it is just our human weakness?

We are NOT Jesus and we will never be like Him. God does not expect of us what He expected of Jesus. Will any human today be able to endure the torture and pain that Jesus went through ?
Christ has done for us what needs to be done according to His Father's purpose. IT IS FINISHED !

When we cry out to God today out of desperation, God promises to hear us and save us. He promises never to leave us or forsake us. He does not expect us to endure excruciating pain like His Son did.

And one more thing ....

I think you getting yourself confused with the word "salvation" ....
Salvation is for man. Not for Jesus. Jesus did not need salvation. He IS our Salvation.

.

If we van never understand what Jesus went through he can never understand us. This is not what the scripture teaches us.

 

[Tina]

If we can never understand what Jesus went through he can never understand us. This is not what the scripture teaches us.

You are attempting to downplay Jesus' power and deity by such false assumptions and sweeping statements ! ........ :naughty

We are all FALLIBLE humans who cannot understand a whole lot of things , you cannot presume that Jesus can also never understand us. Of course Jesus can understand us , He is not only our Lord and Saviour but also our Friend !


John 15:14-16
You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


:amen

 

[francisdesales]

Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

So he did expect to be saved then, right?

Jesus was delivered - upon His resurrection.

Also , why did he not see himself as God at that time since many believe here that Jesus is God? Is he crying out in disappointment to that which he is himself(God)?

It is God's Plan that Jesus become the visible manifestation of God. Jesus death and subsequent resurrection plainly shows God's love for mankind, as well as vindicating Jesus' teachings. He is not "crying out in disappointment", for Scriptures note that He could have easily avoided His death. He knew God's plan and knew and trusted that the Father would raise Him up again, as He points to before His death. The resurrection plainly vindicates Him.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The answer to your question is very simple. Of course he expected God to save him. It seems many people really stretch their imaginations to come up with an explanation to fit their preconvieved belief. Jesus believed he was here to serve a purpose, which he did very successfully. He spread the message of God's love and revealed to us the true characteristics of God, which were quite different than the accepted beliefs of that time. It caused so much controversy at the time that he was killed for it. All you have to do is read what Jesus said and you understand what was going on. Its very simple. Jesus believed he was here to fulfill a purpose for God. He did not expect to be killed. When he asked God to "take this cup from me", he was showing that he felt his purpose was becoming too difficult and may be more than he could bear. Jesus had faith that God would save him from his fate because he knew he was not finished fulfilling his purpose. He had faith all the way until his last breath, when he finally cried out and asked God, If I am here to spread your message and to change humanity, why are you letting me die? Why have you forsaken me?

I think it is you who needs to read more carefully the Gospels...

The Bible tells us that Jesus fully expected to die, well before the events in the Garden. He did not turn aside from Jerusalem. Clearly, you are thinking in human ways, not God's ways - as Christ explained to Peter and the apostles who tried to steer Jesus from fulfilling God's Plan. For example...

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mat 16:21-28

And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again. Mat 20:17-19

EVEN JESUS' OPPONENTS KNEW HE THOUGHT HE WOULD RISE AGAIN...

Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Mat 27:62-63

Jesus well knew what was going to happen. Jesus fully expected to die - and did NOT expect His Father to save Jesus from that - since He came SPECIFICALLY to die and save us from our sins through that death. He came to establish a New Covenant in His blood - which meant He must die to establish that covenant, as the "LAMB OF GOD"...

How is it that John the Baptist calls Jesus the "Lamb of God" BEFORE His death? WHY a "lamb"? Because Jesus had fleece like wool??? Please. The purpose of a lamb is well-known for those who understand Jewish sacrifice.

Sacred Scriptures do not support the idea that Jesus had no idea what was going on or that His death was not planned. That is a fantasy story based upon a limited knowledge of Sacred Scriptures.

Regards

 

[bodhitharta]

So you believe that Jesus was not really asking for assistance in the garden, you don't believe that his sweat was as blood that he actually begged the Father to save him asking 3 times?

You have a problem here, you say that Jesus is God and we have him calling out to "God"? asking "God" a question?

Why is "God" asking "God" a question unless One is God and one is not God? When we say the will of God are we talking about 2 different wills or 3 different wills? Because Jesus had another will seperate from God, he said "NOT MY WILL" so the one whom you call "God" was not willing to die for anyone according to the scriptures.

Also, you cannot even say that a Crucixion is a Sacrifice for no sacrifice is acceptable if the offering has been beaten and tortured and there being no alter.

 

[francisdesales]

So you believe that Jesus was not really asking for assistance in the garden, you don't believe that his sweat was as blood that he actually begged the Father to save him asking 3 times?

I didn't say that, did I? Did I say that Jesus was not really asking for assistance??? And where does the Bible's rendition of the Garden of Gethsamane speak about Jesus begging the Father to "save Him"???? Clearly, from my quotes above, Jesus KNEW that He would die and that He would rise again. He notes that the Scriptures point that out. Thinking otherwise is thinking like Peter and the apostles, for which Jesus quickly chastises as "thinking like men".

You have a problem here, you say that Jesus is God and we have him calling out to "God"? asking "God" a question?

Jesus is also human, and it is human to be fearful of an impending and cruel death. Jesus follows the Will of the Father perfectly by submitting Himself totally and completely. We simply do not know the level of knowledge that the humanity of Jesus possessed before the resurrection. We do know that Jesus' humanity was aware of His particular relationship as a Son of the Father, a Son who existed before Abraham was. He was aware of His impending death for the sake of mankind and the forgiveness of sins. But we do not entirely know what was going through the mind of Jesus in the Garden while calling out to the Father. This is the humanity of Christ shining through at this moment, not some indication of a God with two opposing wills.

When we say the will of God are we talking about 2 different wills or 3 different wills?

There is only one divine will - and clearly, Jesus and the Father had the same will.

Because Jesus had another will seperate from God, he said "NOT MY WILL"

His human desire to save mankind by a less cruel way was clearly overshadowed by His actual decision, thus, there is only one Will.

Also, you cannot even say that a Crucixion is a Sacrifice for no sacrifice is acceptable if the offering has been beaten and tortured and there being no alter.

Jesus had every opportunity to avoid that fate. Something for the Mohemmedan to wonder in awe about, since Mohemmed was anything but a prophet in the mold of a Biblical prophet. Doesn't it seem obvious that he was just using the natural inclination of mankind and their search for God to further his own political ends?

Note carefully the difference between one who sacrifices themself for the sake of others out of love, and one who kills others to further an agenda - hypocritically calling it "the will of God"...

As I have said before, Islam has points of reality with the One True God, but they are sadly confused on a number of issues.

Regards