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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Did Jesus Have Brothers And Sisters ?
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
T
thessalonian
Guest
Well let's start with two.
1) Your author states that Gal 1:19 identifies James as a brother of Jesus (son of Mary type brother). Seeing as how he is an Apostle do you defend his contention that this man is a son of Mary, the mother of Jesus? Why or why not?
2) Your author says that the text in Matt 27 idenifying a woman named Mary, mother of James and Joses, as Jesus mother, thereby "proving" that Mary had other children. Given my analysis of the Mary's at the foot of the cross, is this woman really the mother Jesus? Why or why not?
1) Your author states that Gal 1:19 identifies James as a brother of Jesus (son of Mary type brother). Seeing as how he is an Apostle do you defend his contention that this man is a son of Mary, the mother of Jesus? Why or why not?
2) Your author says that the text in Matt 27 idenifying a woman named Mary, mother of James and Joses, as Jesus mother, thereby "proving" that Mary had other children. Given my analysis of the Mary's at the foot of the cross, is this woman really the mother Jesus? Why or why not?
T
thessalonian
Guest
Lewis W said:
I agree he was a brother of Jesus. Does this prove he was a son of Mary? Not by a long shot.
Interpret scripture with scripture I am told. When I do it you don't even read it apparently. John 19:26 shows there was another Mary there and I presented a bunch of evidence that that Mary was the mother of James and Joseph in Matt 27. You ignore it. Sad Lewis. Very sad. Promises to engage in the conversation that you started and then you give me nothing but the same old circles.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Let's bring this forward. It quite throughly debunks Lewis claim that John 19:26 proves that Jesus Mother Mary is the mother of James and Joses:
Couple more interesting things to help you in your study lewis.
Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
[61] Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the sepulchre.
Matt.28
[1] Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.
Mark.16
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
[9] Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
Mark.15
[40] There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me,
[47] Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.
John 19
[25]
So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
[28]
Luke 24
[10] Now it was Mary Mag'dalene and Jo-an'na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;
Okay, we have this Mary who is the mother of James in Mark 16 and Luke 24. We have "the other mary" and Mary the mother of Joses in Mark 15 and Matt 27, 28 respectively. Mary the mother of Joses and the other Mary are identified as being with Mary Magadalene when they watch where Jesus is laid. Mary the Mother of James is the Mary, with Mary Magadalen when they tell the apostles (luke 24) they have seen the Lord. Mark 15 has Mary Magdalene and Mary the Mother of James the younger (less) looking on from afar. In Mark 15 there is a Mary, looking on from afar who is Mary, mother of James and Joses. Hmmmm.
Seems almost dead certain that "the other Mary", Mary the mother of Joses, and Mary the Mother of James and Joses, and Mary the mother of James the younger (less) are all the same Mary. Note that not once are any of these Mary's identified as Mary the Mother of Jesus and in John 19 it is clear that we have another Mary (Mary wife of Clopas) with the group who is not the mother of Jesus. Further Mary the mother of Jesus is not mentioned in the passages where the women looked on from afar. Probably because she stayed right with the body. Or perhaps seeing her son to distraught it is not surprizing that she might have been taken away by the others. Perhaps John, who's care she was entrusted to and who was not at the tomb with the other two Mary's.
One more point. In John 19 it indicates that John and Mary are near the cross and likely the other women, who are together, are a bit further off. This is consistent with the separation shown in the other two Gospels and again indicates that Mary, mother of James and Joses and Mary the wife of Clopas are the same woman.
I do hope you follow all that. I think your author blew this one bad. As do many other authors who have to prove Mary had other children. Now I am not claiming to prove otherwise, just showing the bias they display in their "exegesis".
Blessings
Couple more interesting things to help you in your study lewis.
Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
[61] Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the sepulchre.
Matt.28
[1] Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.
Mark.16
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
[9] Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.
Mark.15
[40] There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me,
[47] Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.
John 19
[25]
So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
[28]
Luke 24
[10] Now it was Mary Mag'dalene and Jo-an'na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;
Okay, we have this Mary who is the mother of James in Mark 16 and Luke 24. We have "the other mary" and Mary the mother of Joses in Mark 15 and Matt 27, 28 respectively. Mary the mother of Joses and the other Mary are identified as being with Mary Magadalene when they watch where Jesus is laid. Mary the Mother of James is the Mary, with Mary Magadalen when they tell the apostles (luke 24) they have seen the Lord. Mark 15 has Mary Magdalene and Mary the Mother of James the younger (less) looking on from afar. In Mark 15 there is a Mary, looking on from afar who is Mary, mother of James and Joses. Hmmmm.
Seems almost dead certain that "the other Mary", Mary the mother of Joses, and Mary the Mother of James and Joses, and Mary the mother of James the younger (less) are all the same Mary. Note that not once are any of these Mary's identified as Mary the Mother of Jesus and in John 19 it is clear that we have another Mary (Mary wife of Clopas) with the group who is not the mother of Jesus. Further Mary the mother of Jesus is not mentioned in the passages where the women looked on from afar. Probably because she stayed right with the body. Or perhaps seeing her son to distraught it is not surprizing that she might have been taken away by the others. Perhaps John, who's care she was entrusted to and who was not at the tomb with the other two Mary's.
One more point. In John 19 it indicates that John and Mary are near the cross and likely the other women, who are together, are a bit further off. This is consistent with the separation shown in the other two Gospels and again indicates that Mary, mother of James and Joses and Mary the wife of Clopas are the same woman.
I do hope you follow all that. I think your author blew this one bad. As do many other authors who have to prove Mary had other children. Now I am not claiming to prove otherwise, just showing the bias they display in their "exegesis".
Blessings
T
thessalonian
Guest
This as well. You could try reading them Lewis.
Don't have time to deal with it all but your author really messes up bad in one place:
Mark 6:3
* "Is not this the carpenter, the Son of Mary, the Brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."
Again, the very context of scripture reveals that this is talking about the blood family of Jesus! In other words, Jesus, Son of Mary, brother of James and Joses, and He also had sisters. It's identifying a blood family, and it would be tortuous of scripture to deny this. If we're going to say that word Brother doesn't really mean His brethren, we have to also say that word Mother doesn't really mean Mary was Jesus Mother. For it's the same word that was used in Matthew 27:56 saying Mary was the Mother of James and Joses. And so it is utterly ludicrous to believe Mary was not the Mother of James and Joses.
There is a problem. First let's post Mat 27:56.
Matt 27
[55]
There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him;
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
[57]
Okay. so we have a woman named Mary who is mother of James and Josoph. But is this Jesus's mother. In every other passage his mother is identified as such. Well we have another passage to help us out.
John 19.
[25]
So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
Now some of the early church fathers noted that Clopas was a rendering of Alpheus. But no matter, it is quite likely that this Mary is the one that is the mother of James and Joses, rather than Mary Jesus mother. We also see later that Mary, the mother of Jude goes to the tomb. I have not ever seen anyone claim this was Mary the mother of Jesus. It does relate a mary who is mother of Judas and a Mary, mother of James and Joses to the mother of James and joes, and Judas and simon. Ah, this is all making sense now. And did you notice that Mary, the mother of zebedee and another Mary, lilely mother of alpheus (clopas) was at the cross. Also James in Gal 1:19 is called "brother of the Lord". Yet he is also said to be an APOSTLE. The only two Apostles named James are the son of zebedee and the son of Alpheus. Hey this is all fitting together quite nicely and making alot of sense. Mary the mother of Jesus at the cross. Mary the mother of James and Joses, and Mary the mother of Zebee's son's, James and John. Isn't the Bible grand!
Blessings
Don't have time to deal with it all but your author really messes up bad in one place:
Mark 6:3
* "Is not this the carpenter, the Son of Mary, the Brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."
Again, the very context of scripture reveals that this is talking about the blood family of Jesus! In other words, Jesus, Son of Mary, brother of James and Joses, and He also had sisters. It's identifying a blood family, and it would be tortuous of scripture to deny this. If we're going to say that word Brother doesn't really mean His brethren, we have to also say that word Mother doesn't really mean Mary was Jesus Mother. For it's the same word that was used in Matthew 27:56 saying Mary was the Mother of James and Joses. And so it is utterly ludicrous to believe Mary was not the Mother of James and Joses.
There is a problem. First let's post Mat 27:56.
Matt 27
[55]
There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him;
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
[57]
Okay. so we have a woman named Mary who is mother of James and Josoph. But is this Jesus's mother. In every other passage his mother is identified as such. Well we have another passage to help us out.
John 19.
[25]
So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
Now some of the early church fathers noted that Clopas was a rendering of Alpheus. But no matter, it is quite likely that this Mary is the one that is the mother of James and Joses, rather than Mary Jesus mother. We also see later that Mary, the mother of Jude goes to the tomb. I have not ever seen anyone claim this was Mary the mother of Jesus. It does relate a mary who is mother of Judas and a Mary, mother of James and Joses to the mother of James and joes, and Judas and simon. Ah, this is all making sense now. And did you notice that Mary, the mother of zebedee and another Mary, lilely mother of alpheus (clopas) was at the cross. Also James in Gal 1:19 is called "brother of the Lord". Yet he is also said to be an APOSTLE. The only two Apostles named James are the son of zebedee and the son of Alpheus. Hey this is all fitting together quite nicely and making alot of sense. Mary the mother of Jesus at the cross. Mary the mother of James and Joses, and Mary the mother of Zebee's son's, James and John. Isn't the Bible grand!
Blessings
Lewis
Member
You know lately things have been going on in my life, and I am just getting back to the normal. And some days I just don't feel like it which has been a lot lately. So you can say what you want I really don't care. If I felt up to going deeper into this with you I would have. But at this time I don't. So say anything that you want. You have seen some of my old post, like on the Catholics.
And I went real deep in some of them, and other post, but now I just don't feel like it ok. And I am not running away from this topic if that is what you think.
And I went real deep in some of them, and other post, but now I just don't feel like it ok. And I am not running away from this topic if that is what you think.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Yes you are. You promised a response several times and then I get back handwaving. You started this but have not engaged at all in any kind of meaningful way. You attack Catholicism but don't engage your mind and consider what we have to say in return. It's monolgue. I will say what I want.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Lewis W said:
God bless you lewis.