Did Jesus preach to people in hell?

[Butch5]

So where was He for those 3 days?

Scripture says, absent from the body, present with the Lord...but He is the Lord, so where was He?

He was in the grave. Paul's absent from the body statement is not referring to a ghost. He actually says that the Christian doesn't want to be absent from the body in that very passage.

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2Co 5:1-4 KJV)

When he says we would rather be clothed upon the Greek word he uses actually means to over clothe or to put on over. He's not saying he wants to leave the body what he's saying is that he wants the incorruptible body to be put on over the corruptible body, hence the statement, "that mortality might be swallowed up of life." The picture there is the incorruptible body swallowing up the corruptible body by being put on over it.

 

[Butch5]

He did. His body died on the cross. Where was His Spirit for those 3 days?

But Scripture says Jesus died on the cross, not his body died on the cross. You're assuming a spirit to continue on as does JLB, yet, we've found nothing in Scripture that suggests that man is a spirit that can live on after the body dies. Consider who had the Scriptures, it was the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Scribes, none of these groups believed that a man had a spirit that lived on after death. Who believed that man was an immortal spirit or soul? It was the Greeks. The Jews had God's word for hundreds of years and yet they didn't believe that man had an immortal soul or spirit. That should be a major red flag for any holding that man has an immortal spirit or soul.

 

[agua.]

I have seen you over at TOL and at CF Forums. You say that death means annihilation. This would mean that when Jesus died on the cross He was annihilated. So, who is the Jesus at the right hand of God? LOL!

Annihilation comes at the second death in the LoF.

Mat 10:28 KJV And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ( Gehenna/LoF )

Jesus isn't subject to the second death of course.

 

[thethinker]

Hades is the grave, it's translated as such quite a few times. I don't believe people bury the dead in the deepest regions of the earth. A soul is the combination of a body and the breath of life, the two together became a living soul (Gen 2:7)

It doesn't matter how many times it is translated "grave." In the bible hades was the grave of the SOUL, not of the body.

grave = resting place of the SOUL.

I don't believe people bury the dead in the deepest regions of the earth.

At death the SOULS of the dead descended to the deepest regions of the earth. The soul of Jesus was resurrected from sheol (hades). Paul said that Christ was resurrected from the "abyss" (Romans 10:7). The Greek "abussos" (abyss) is translated "the bottomless pit" in the KJV (Rev. 20). Jesus said that He would be in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the heart of the earth. Jonah's body wasn't buried. The fish carried Jonah ALIVE down into the abyss. Likewise, Jesus descended ALIVE into the abyss and was resurrected from there.

Your frame of reference is not biblical. The "grave" was NOT the place where the body went, but was where the SOUL went.

 

[Edward]

But Scripture says Jesus died on the cross, not his body died on the cross. You're assuming a spirit to continue on as does JLB, yet, we've found nothing in Scripture that suggests that man is a spirit that can live on after the body dies. Consider who had the Scriptures, it was the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Scribes, none of these groups believed that a man had a spirit that lived on after death. Who believed that man was an immortal spirit or soul? It was the Greeks. The Jews had God's word for hundreds of years and yet they didn't believe that man had an immortal soul or spirit. That should be a major red flag for any holding that man has an immortal spirit or soul.

So I should believe the Scribes, Pharisees and Greeks?
With all due respect brother, you're over-thinking this. Jesus the man died on the cross. Men have a body, and apart from god will not live on after death. they will be raised to condemnation or redemption. I have posted the scriptures which tell us that we in fact do have body/soul/spirit. God is not the author of confusion, it is a simple gospel, one we should read quite literally as the Word lays it down, without adding or subtracting from it.

Do you believe the Word of God? Scripture? Give me your take on this scripture brother?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it./

 

[thethinker]

Hades is the grave, it's translated as such quite a few times. I don't believe people bury the dead in the deepest regions of the earth. A soul is the combination of a body and the breath of life, the two together became a living soul (Gen 2:7)

There is a grave of the body (though not biblically). And there was a grave of the soul. Hades was the grave of the soul. Souls "slept" in the grave (hades).

 

[JLB]

Brother Mike,

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not about the after life, its about the kingdom being taken from the Jews. If you look up Hades throughout the Scriptures you'll find that it's the grave. In the parable nothing is said about the rich man being wicked, that is assumed because he is said to be in torment in the flame. That's reading theology into the passage. Take note that Jesus was addressing the Pharisees when giving the parable. Just before this He had said, the Law and the prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of God is preached. He also said, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, He was accusing the Pharisees of being unfaithful. He had also just given the parable of the unfaithful steward. These parables are directed at the Pharisees. When Jesus speaks of the rich man, he's said to be dressed in purple and fine linen. The priesthood was dressed in fine linen. He's also said to be a son of Abraham as he called Abraham father. I believe Jesus was referring to a passage that the Pharisees would be quite familiar with. This passage speaks of judgment against Israel.

15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; You grew fat, you grew thick, You are obese! Then he forsook God who made him, And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful, And have forgotten the God who fathered you.
19 "And when the LORD saw it, He spurned them, Because of the provocation of His sons and His daughters.
20 And He said:`I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith.
21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God; They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols. But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation; I will move them to anger by a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 `I will heap disasters on them; I will spend My arrows on them.
24 They shall be wasted with hunger, Devoured by pestilence and bitter destruction; I will also send against them the teeth of beasts, With the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword shall destroy outside; There shall be terror within For the young man and virgin, The nursing child with the man of gray hairs.
26 I would have said, "I will dash them in pieces, I will make the memory of them to cease from among men,"
27 Had I not feared the wrath of the enemy, Lest their adversaries should misunderstand, Lest they should say, "Our hand is high; And it is not the LORD who has done all this."'
28 "For they are a nation void of counsel, Nor is there any understanding in them.
29 Oh, that they were wise, that they understood this, That they would consider their latter end!
30 How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, And the LORD had surrendered them?
31 For their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves being judges. (Deu 32:15-31 NKJ)

In the bolded section the word translated Hell is Greek word Hades. I believe Jesus was talking to Pharisees about their being judge as unfaithful stewards and that the kingdom was being taken away from them and that being tormented in the flame in Hades is a reference to the passage in Deuteronomy. The rich man in torment in Hades is actually the priesthood suffering the wrath of God's anger.

Jesus' teaching is completely the opposite of what you say.

Jesus said the rich died and was buried. In hell he lifted up his eyes and saw...


Did Jesus say clearly the rich died and was buried?

Why would Jesus say something that was not true.

Jesus said of this rich man who died and was buried that in hell he lifted up his eyes and saw and spoke.

Conclusion: Jesus is teaching us about the afterlife!!!


JLB

 

[Butch5]

It doesn't matter how many times it is translated "grave." In the bible hades was the grave of the SOUL, not of the body.

grave = resting place of the SOUL.

At death the SOULS of the dead descended to the deepest regions of the earth. The soul of Jesus was resurrected from sheol (hades). Paul said that Christ was resurrected from the "abyss" (Romans 10:7). The Greek "abussos" (abyss) is translated "the bottomless pit" in the KJV (Rev. 20). Jesus said that He would be in the heart of the earth as Jonah was in the heart of the earth. Jonah's body wasn't buried. The fish carried Jonah ALIVE down into the abyss. Likewise, Jesus descended ALIVE into the abyss and was resurrected from there.

Your frame of reference is not biblical. The "grave" was NOT the place where the body went, but was where the SOUL went.

Actually my frame of reference is Biblical as it's Gen. 2:7. The grave, Hades is where the body goes A study of the word soul in the Scriptures will reveal that a soul is living being which includes a body as per Gen 2. God form the man from the dust of hte earth and breathed into him the breath of life and mand became a living soul, thus a living soul is a body and the breath of God. Without either component you don't have a soul. If God retrieves His breath the body turns to dust and the sole is no more. It doesn't descend anywhere because the breath of God goes back to Him. Once that happens the soul is no more. If you take hydrogen or oxygen away from water you no longer have water, likewise if you take the body or the breath of God from the soul you no longer have a soul. That a body is part of the soul can be seen in Scripture.

A soul eats and drinks,

KJV Luke 12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. (Luk 12:22 KJV)

Souls can be destroyed in Gehenna,

KJV Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 KJV)

A soul can be lost,

KJV Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Mar 8:36 KJV)

Souls can die,

YLT Job 7:15 And my soul chooseth strangling, Death rather than my bones. (Job 7:15 YLT)

KJV Jonah 4:3 Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live. (Jon 4:3 KJV)

The Soul is in the blood,

KJV Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. (Lev 17:14 KJV)

Genesis says fish are souls, they don't have souls, they are souls. When soul is used concretely it is a living being, when it is used abstractly it refers to life.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus' teaching is completely the opposite of what you say.

Jesus said the rich died and was buried. In hell he lifted up his eyes and saw...


Did Jesus say clearly the rich died and was buried?

Why would Jesus say something that was not true.

Jesus said of this rich man who died and was buried that in hell he lifted up his eyes and saw and spoke.

Conclusion: Jesus is teaching us about the afterlife!!!


JLB

Did Jesus say the rich man was wicked?

Who judged the rich man before the judgment? Why is the rich man being tormented before he is judged.

According to John the wicked are judged at the Great White throne Judgment Which is in the future why does your theology have the rich man judged before Jesus even died?

How does the rich man have a body to feel pain when he left his body?

How can the rich man see without eyes? How can he hear without ears, talk without a mouth? After all he left his body.

Why is the rich man asking Abraham to send Lazarus back, isn't that God's decision?

Why does Abraham deny the request, isn't that God's decision?

If this is about the after life why is only the rich man in Hades, while Scripture says the wicked are cast into Gehenna or the lake of fire?

If this is about the after life what significance is there that the rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen?

If this is about the after life what point is there in telling the name of the beggar? And, why not give the name of the rich man also?

If this is about the after life what does Abraham's bosom have to do with it?

If this is about the after life does being rich get one tormented in flames?

If this is about the after life does one enter the kingdom by being a poor beggar?

If this is about the after life the ones who receive good things in this life are tormented in flames and those who receive evil things enter the kingdom.

If this is about the after life must one be covered in sores to enter the kingdom?

If this is about the after life why is Lazarus a beggar in Abraham's bosom instead of Issac or Jacob or Moses or David?

If this is about the after life why do some go to a man's chest and some to Hades?

If this is about the after life why does the rich man ask for Lazarus to cool his tongue when there is a great gulf that cannot be crossed? If this gulf is so great how are they conversing across it?

If this is about the after life what is the significance of the rich man having five brothers?

If this is about the after life why is this the only passage in Scripture that speaks of someone suffering in flames in Hades?

If this is about the after life why did Jesus say that wicked will be cast into Gehenna?

If this is about the after life why did John say that death and Hades would be cast into the Lake of Fire?

If this is about the after life what are the righteous doing there?

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (1Co 15:53-55 KJV)

According to Paul, the resurrection brings victory over Hades. If Hades is the place of fiery torment what are the saints doing there?

My question is why adhere to an interpretation that contradicts the overwhelming evidence in the Scriptures?

The proper conclusion is that Jesus was telling a parable to the Pharisees, not teaching them.

 

[Butch5]

There is a grave of the body (though not biblically). And there was a grave of the soul. Hades was the grave of the soul. Souls "slept" in the grave (hades).

Soul's require a body and the breath of God to exist. If the breath of God is taken away there is no more soul.

 

[Edward]

Soul's require a body and the breath of God to exist. If the breath of God is taken away there is no more soul.

scripture please?

 

[Butch5]

scripture please?

Hi Edward,

I've already given Gen 2:7. God created a soul by combining the man formed from the dust and His Breath of Life. Those two components together formed a soul, If you take away the Breath of Life all you have is the body that we saw before God breathed into it. If you take away the body all you have is the Breath of Life which is something that belongs to God. The book of Job says,

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; {man: Heb. him}
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

It says if God gather's His breath all flesh will die. In Genesis 2:7 it is the flesh and the Breath of Life that combined to create a Soul.

 

[Edward]

Ah, i remember now. ...god breathed into man...and man became a living soul. Thank you brother.

Let's talk soul for a moment. Would this be the part of us that is our personal identity and personality?

 

[Brother Mike]

Hades was the grave of the SOUL. Hades was located in the deepest regions of the earth. Souls went to hades to await the resurrection.

Agree there. Keep it simple. Jews believed in Sheol as the place for the righteous dead. Same place as Hades. Hell is a English thing, but there was torment in Hades as Jesus described.

The Gospels don't say. Why do you assume that part of Jesus lived when Jesus died?

Gospel does say. He was in Hell "Hades" As in Psalms and Acts fulfilled.

Jesus was made sin, and took all the punishment of mankind. He went straight to hell, what part the scripture does not denote.
Jesus went to hell so we don't have to. Everything He did was in our place. He bore our punishment, what we deserved and there would be no reason to believe He skipped hell because of scripture.

Brother Mike,

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not about the after life, its about the kingdom being taken from the Jews. If you look up Hades throughout the Scriptures you'll find that it's the grave. In the parable nothing is said about the rich man being wicked, that is assumed because he is said to be in torment in the flame. That's reading theology into the passage. Take note that Jesus was addressing the Pharisees when giving the parable. Just before this He had said, the Law and the prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of God is preached. He also said, whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, He was accusing the Pharisees of being unfaithful. He had also just given the parable of the unfaithful steward. These parables are directed at the Pharisees. When Jesus speaks of the rich man, he's said to be dressed in purple and fine linen. The priesthood was dressed in fine linen. He's also said to be a son of Abraham as he called Abraham father. I believe Jesus was referring to a passage that the Pharisees would be quite familiar with. This passage speaks of judgment against Israel.

In the bolded section the word translated Hell is Greek word Hades. I believe Jesus was talking to Pharisees about their being judge as unfaithful stewards and that the kingdom was being taken away from them and that being tormented in the flame in Hades is a reference to the passage in Deuteronomy. The rich man in torment in Hades is actually the priesthood suffering the wrath of God's anger.

No doubt your right that the Pharisees righteousness did not exceed expectations. However, Jesus was not telling a parable. All his parables never included a real place as the Jews believed in Sheol, a place of the righteous dead.

Also his parables never quoted a real person. Jesus quoted Abraham the father of faith as saying.

If Jesus just made up a story for the Jews to understand, then Jesus lied on what Abraham said, misrepresented God's man whom we are blessed through, and changed in one place all his other parables by giving a real place with real names.

This was no Parable, as Jesus is not a liar, nor would Jesus ever misrepresent anyone claiming they said something they never said. Jesus described Hades as a place where the righteous dead went, fixed by a gulf to flames of torment. HELL.

Jesus integrity is never in question. Not one time. There are some that believe Jesus lied to make a point, but they are confused.

Mike.

 

[TimothyW]

Because He's GOD brother.

Not only that, we're all spiritual creatures. we have a Spirit. Jesus has a Spirit.

You act like you accept these 3 dimensions are the end all of reality...??

I accept what I read in the Bible, and I do not accept what has been added on to it.

The question is "Did Jesus go to Hell to preach to dead people?".

The answer is "No, the Bible does not say that he did". Anything more than that is adding to scripture and making stuff up.

I believe what the Bible says, that Jesus died on the cross. The Bible does not say that Jesus remained alive after his death but before his resurrection. You are assuming that. You act like you accept the bad baloney of the Spiritualists, the ones who hold seances and trick old widows out of their dead husband's pensions.

 

[Butch5]

No doubt your right that the Pharisees righteousness did not exceed expectations. However, Jesus was not telling a parable. All his parables never included a real place as the Jews believed in Sheol, a place of the righteous dead.

You're argument is base in silence and assumes this story isn't a parable.

Can you show me anywhere is Scripture that Sheol is only for the righteous dead?

Also his parables never quoted a real person. Jesus quoted Abraham the father of faith as saying.

As I said this argument is from silence. It also assumes it's conclusion in it's premise making it a circular argument

If Jesus just made up a story for the Jews to understand, then Jesus lied on what Abraham said, misrepresented God's man whom we are blessed through, and changed in one place all his other parables by giving a real place with real names.

No, He did lie, He did not lie..(.Edited typo) it's a story and the Pharisees would have known it. Mathew and Mark say that Jesus didn't speak to them except in parables.

This was no Parable, as Jesus is not a liar, nor would Jesus ever misrepresent anyone claiming they said something they never said. Jesus described Hades as a place where the righteous dead went, fixed by a gulf to flames of torment. HELL.

If Hades is the place where the righteous dead go why are they being tormented in flames?

Also, where in the parable did Jesus say either was righteous or wicked? He didn't that is imposed on the passage,

Jesus integrity is never in question. Not one time. There are some that believe Jesus lied to make a point, but they are confused.

Not it's not. However, one's interpretation is.

 

[Butch5]

Ah, i remember now. ...god breathed into man...and man became a living soul. Thank you brother.

Let's talk soul for a moment. Would this be the part of us that is our personal identity and personality?

I don't think it's a part of us. I believe it is us. We are a soul.

 

[Brother Mike]

As I said this argument is from silence. It also assumes it's conclusion in it's premise making it a circular argument



No, He did lie, did not lie .. it's a story and the Pharisees would have known it. Mathew and Mark say that Jesus didn't speak to them except in parables.

.

A typo has been edited. to read as the poster intended... .. reba

edited response to typo

For those with ears to hear:
The Jews believed in Sheol a place of the Righteous dead. The Sadducee did not believe in resurrection, or known if they believed in Sheol.

The Pharisee's did though, and their successors later came up with the Maimonides (14). Jesus put Their Patriarch in Hell which they believed, but where not aware of Hades having another part. Jesus refereed to Gehenna located just south of the city as a descriptor, saying there is a place where the fire never goes out, or worm dies.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus Lied Ummm.

You are lost, and anything I explaine to you would not be understood. As it is written, it's impossible for God to lie, EVER. I am saddened by this generation who is not taught that to be in Jesus, we are to uphold honor and integrity past the Worlds standards.

If Jesus Lied on Abraham, then everything Jesus said is suspect to being true or not. We are saved by faith, through grace, and there is no faith based on lies.

For those with ears to hear:
The Jews believed in Sheol a place of the Righteous dead. The Sadducee did not believe in resurrection, or known if they believed in Sheol.

The Pharisee's did though, and their successors later came up with the Maimonides (14). Jesus put Their Patriarch in Hell which they believed, but where not aware of Hades having another part. Jesus refereed to Gehenna located just south of the city as a descriptor, saying there is a place where the fire never goes out, or worm dies.

No Jesus didn't lie. Just because He used Abraham in a parable doesn't mean Abraham spoke those words. If you study entire section rather than interpret one passage devoid of it's context it become clear what Jesus is doing.

since you're claiming the passage is teaching that the dead are alive, please explain how that fits the context of the passage. Luke 14-16 is all the same context. Please explain how your understand of Luke 16 has anything to do with what Jesus was saying in those three chapters.

 

[reba]

closed for moderator review... The problem was a typo it has been corrected....