Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[Windozer]

Why do you guys keep denying the fact that God created both good and evil and that he gave warning in the garden of eden for Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of "Knowledge" OF Good and Evil.

God gave us free will. if you don't understand that we have free will to choose which to focus on.

God created sin??? The very thing he is opposed to :-?
I am not ready to accept that.

Good grief !!! That does not present a picture that makes him worth trusting. I can't see him playing with us like that.

That sure sounds like denial of the responsibility that comes with free will to me.

 

[Relic]

Why do you guys keep denying the fact that God created both good and evil and that he gave warning in the garden of eden for Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of "Knowledge" OF Good and Evil.

God gave us free will. if you don't understand that we have free will to choose which to focus on.

God created sin??? The very thing he is opposed to :-?
I am not ready to accept that.

Good grief !!! That does not present a picture that makes him worth trusting. I can't see him playing with us like that.

That sure sounds like denial of the responsibility that comes with free will to me.

Read the first part of Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

now read the rest of that verse....

I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:


Now read Isaiah 45:6
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Now read Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


And if a person doesn't learn the fear of the Lord they will continue to stumble and fall all over their life and the life of others so much so that they won't know what hell came over them. All because the refused to see that God created all things and the HIS Good Will for us is what we must strive to achieve in this life. He is a loving Father that wants to protect us from the opposing forces in all of creation. He is a loving Father that wants us to learn how to live with the knowledge of harnessing His Goodness by resisting the wiles of the devil.

Learn to understand the faucets of fear. And learn what "respect" means in this life. We are to repsect All of God's creation.
We are not the masters of this world until we live in accordance to the HOLY Will of our Father God. And if a person refuses to submit to the Laws or Order set in place by our ALLMight God... then, they will be stumbling and falling about, living life at random chance, foolishly bringing about that which is opposite to the Good Will of God, for as long as they remain in their stubborn vain skin.

Faith without works is dead.

And if a person doesn't want to believe in Jesus as being the way, the truth and the life. And LIVE BY what Jesus taught to live by. Then they will be lost to sin as Sin takes over that which rules over them. It is the opposite of Love. Switch on, switch off. is what all too many people do.
Instead of living For Godly principles and powers, they live as fools not wanting to learn more of Godly prinicples that work for the good in their lives. They want the easy way in life, but life is not always easy all the time. The things in nature prove so much. Why do some people thing we don't have to go through pressure or trials? Even the shell of a seed must crack for it to bring forth the plant that bears the fruit. Even the vine must be pruned in order for it to bear fruit. Why do some people think that we humans are any different in the way God set the Laws of Order in all things?


Like it or not, God created both the good and the evil. However, He does not want for us to follow after the evil.

Read the first few chapters of Genesis. God wanted to protect us from the opposite forces. those forces are in effect. whether you like it or not.

If you don't set out to understand that God created ALL things, you will not understand the principles and powers that are set in place and that Jesus is the one who shows us how to resist those negatives and how to overcome them. Like it or not. Life is the way God made it and if we don't seek to Know his ways over our ignorant ways, then we end up living a life of tourmoil and we live in the torment of ignorance, without end.

Seek ye first! Jesus taught so many things in just a few words.

Break it down in order to build it up!

Follow the truths of Jesus and you won't struggle so much with all that confusion.


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[Windozer]

Follow the truths of Jesus and you won't struggle so much with all that confusion.

The only confusion I have here is trying to understand you.

What kind of person would create something that is an abomination to himself :-?

That is insanity !

 

[Relic]

Follow the truths of Jesus and you won't struggle so much with all that confusion.

The only confusion I have here is trying to understand you.

What kind of person would create something that is an abomination to himself :-?

That is insanity !

It's not that it is an abomination "to" himself. It is an "opposite" of himself.

know the difference.

Again, it is evident in chemistry, it is evident in All of nature, in All of Creation. There are Set laws, set rules of absolute order in ALL things, that are in opposition to them. God gives us the answers to harnessing the powers of and within each principality. Tt is a choice. It is up to us, by order of the "Will" that is within each one of us, that God gave to us freely " a gift of life" that we are to learn what it is that saves us from the harm "the di-ease" of that which opposes the "good will" of God.

Rocket science?

There are absolutes in life. We need to learn from Godly wisdom, how to reign over that which is liken to cause the opposite of what God created us for. If we oppose God (Godly principles of the Holy, that which prospers, that which heals, that which is blessed,) then we are not living in anything but that which opposes that which God appointed for us to achive. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Follow Jesus. Jesus knew of these opposing forces. They are named Satan/devil/evil and all those other names that are related to the principles that are ruled by these certain powers that be.

Do you see it yet?


It is a choice. We opposed that choice to be 'In His Good Will' way back in the garden of Eden. So then.... God in His loving mercy and grace. Sent Jesus to show us the way, the truth, and the life. without being veiled.

The new testament is the old testament "unveiled". When Jesus died on the cross that veiled wisdom/communication with God. that which was hidden (in part) was torn in two. The veil was torn. We are given redemption and saving, through Christ Jesus. Follow Jesus, the truth, the way and the life is IN All that He IS. He is our "living" example. He teaches us How to resist and to overcome that which is opposed to that which is deemed Holy/Sanctified by the Good Will of God. It saves us "from" that which leads us to 'torment' in the Lake of Fire.


I don't know how else to share in this forum except that I post a ton of scritpures and some people here just don't appreciate some of us using scritpure to get the message accross. :roll:

God bless. :bday:


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[guibox]

Why do you guys keep denying the fact that God created both good and evil and that he gave warning in the garden of eden for Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of "Knowledge" OF Good and Evil..

Sorry. I can't agree with that. The tree of knowledge was of KNOWING good and evil. Evil already existed due to freedom of choice. God was responsible only for the possibility of evil in making created beings with freedom of choice, not for the actuality of evil.

To do so is to pit God against Himself.

He Gave us his only begotten Son as a means of "redemption" FROM the things of this world. He Sent us Jesus to save us from sin. Jesus gave us a way to resist and overcome the things of this world.

Then Christ came to save us from Himself (for the world is evil and God created it) and the eternal hell He created for no other purpose but to punish.

I question what kind of God you serve, but I understand better now why you'd believe eternal torment.

Why don't you see that God is not going to annihilate opposites?

All things in Life itself proves the workings of creator God.

You can't dictate that God is going to eliminate one just for you to be happy.

NO He will show you how to focus on the Good Will for His glory.

HE never promised to eliminate the opposite force. He has a place for all things. And that is forever and ever. Without end.

Interesting logic. I would call it 'winds of doctrines' or the 'doctrines of man', for your reasoning is a desperate attempt to justify an eternal hell by making God favor evil and pit Himself against Himself.

Because God created evil, He wants it and it's effects to be eternal as well? :roll:

Perhaps you should read Revelation 21:1,2

 

[Soma-Sight]

Yeah, but it doesn't make them any less true!

I agree!

Interesting how we could talk about reincarnartion, Islamic ethics, meditation.....

but not other "certain" doctrines that have to do with the topic of hell...

Why is that?

Maybe because its true!

 

[Vic C.]

... why is that?

Maybe because its true!

You know EXACTLY why that is. It is because of the way it was debated; it was both sides, not just the UR people. Comments like some of the ones we've been witnessing here may cause the extinction of this topic as well. That would be a shame because there are still some who would rather debate with Scripture as opposed to hurling insults.

Yes, God did create evil, or at the very least, the possibilty for evil to exist. We would be very wise to heed the words of James.

James 4

6 But He gives greater grace. Because of this it says, "God sets Himself against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones." Prov. 3:34
7 Then be subject to God. Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners! And purify your hearts, double minded ones!
9 Be distressed, and mourn, and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy into shame.
10 Be humbled before the Lord, and He will exalt you. (LITV)

Sad, really sad.

 

[Relic]

Read the first part of Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:
now read the rest of that verse....

I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:


Now read Isaiah 45:6
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Now read this...

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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[Soma-Sight]

You know EXACTLY why that is. It is because of the way it was debated; it was both sides, not just the UR people. Comments like some of the ones we've been witnessing here may cause the extinction of this topic as well. That would be a shame because there are still some who would rather debate with Scripture as opposed to hurling insults.

Fine Linen may have been pretty excentric but...

It was a two sided issue.

 

[Vic C.]

You know EXACTLY why that is. It is because of the way it was debated; it was both sides, not just the UR people.

LOL, Soma, what part of "it was both sides" did you not undersand?

People are beginnning to argue solely for the sake of argument again. If 'you' feel 'you' are one of those people, maybe 'you' need to take a break.

 

[wavy]

Wavy repeats his unanswered question:

I have a question. How many torments are there?

I need a quick (emphasis on "quick" if you can't tell :-D ) chronology of the events of Revelation 14:9-11 as compared with Revelation 20:10-15 as it pertaines to satan and the white throne judgment of the second resurrection.

Why do I ask this?

Well, I want to know if there are two fire and brimstones. In Revelation 14, it says people will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and his malachim/messengers. So if the lake of fire and brimstone is to be described as separation from Elohim, then please explain this to me.

Are there two torments and two lake of fires and brimstones? Or is it the same one but some type of "transfer" occurs to where they are moved from the presence to some other place not in the prescence.

Just need a little clarification.

 

[Relic]

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Amen Vic. It is time for this to be my last post in this thead.


It is sad when parts of the bible are ignored. when it comes to fear of the Lord and His might forces that are ALL set in place and are given names to both the negative and the positive. The negative is what people are not wanting to come to terms with. They think by ignoring that force which is given over to Satan (the name given to the power and principality that is of opposing force of God) they just can't handle it. They try to break God up into pieces instead of seeing Him as the ONE and ONLY ONE. The Creator of ALL. Isaiah 45:5-7 Do you notice how they ignore this bible verse? Or just chuck it off as saying what loving God does such a thing as create evil to go against himself? They just can't see God from any other perspective than a limited one of being nothing but love. Of course that is what He wants for us. Then they go and say Jesus is the One who is against God. Sheesh. They just won't let God be a Holy redeemer from the creation of opposites. Will they? They go about as if God has nothing to do with the opposing forces of nature. But Isaiah 45:5-7 states that God created ALL things. What of that truth? They continually ignore them.

It is sad when no one wants to study the many faucets of the fear of the Lords in respect to His awesome power.

I respect electricity (God created it) , because if I don't, I'll get zapped. :-?

I respect fire (God created it) , because if I don't I'll get burnt. :-?

I respect even the body of water, lakes, oceans, running rapids (God created it) , because if I don't i'll drown.

I respect my mother(God created her and gave her authority over her children, in accordance to his Holy Word) , because if I don't, well, you know what happens when we don't listen to mom. We also disrespect and cause hurt when we don't obey and listen to wise counsel. :roll:

God created them all.

All of those things, including the authority of my mother, are set in Place by GOD.


God is an awesome GOD. CREATOR OF ALL

And I will respect that as best as I am capable.

His Grace is sufficient. His Mercy is great.

I am not to proud to Fear the Lord for his might and awesome power!

If you fear jumping into a volcano, you should fear the Lord God in respect to All that HE IS.



Too many churches these days leave out the lessons of fear of the Lord.
The teaching of the many facets of fear and reverence to The awesome power of God.


Do a Study on fear and it's place pertaining to all things, even to the truth about one who has the fear of God, the Lord God. there are over 537 verses pertaining to fear that are in the bible, KJV.
Too many modern day bibles have eliminated that word from the text. Thereby demeaning the truth in the Word. but then there are some who argue against the KJV also and deny the teaching of any kind of wrath of God or fear of the Lord. they have in effect taken black magic markers and blotted out the truth in the word.


I have fear of the Lord. And I'm not going deny the teachings in the bible by looking to some new age book that leaves out the truth that has been proven over and over again from the beginning of the creation of man.[/b]
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Yep, a little humility for the Lord and all the he is goes a long way. :bday:
And I will now humble myself even further in respect to knowing when to stop trying to prove a point, and stop with my involvement in this thread. enough has been posted to prove God is ALL that He says He is.

I consider this thread a stale mate that being without the Holy Spirit calling man to repentance from the stubbornness of false beliefs. If I am in error I pray the Lord shine His light of truth upon me. But as far as this thread goes. I'm done here. There are just too many conflicting wars. I choose to focus on ALL of what the bible teaches, not half of it. Period.



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[wavy]

And as far as the Isaiah quote about "I make peace and create evil", this is not talking about evil "nature" as we would think of it.

This is talking about "calamity". When the children of Israel were at the foot of Sinai and started worshipping the golden calf, Yahweh was going to kill them. Moses made intercession for them so Yahweh would not destroy them all.

And what does it say? "And Yahweh repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people".

Yahweh commits "evil" acts? No. This is talking about calamity. Something not "peaceful". Something not pleasant. Tripping over a log and busting your head open on a rock is an "evil" thing.

 

[Soma-Sight]

LOL, Soma, what part of "it was both sides" did you not undersand?

People are beginnning to argue solely for the sake of argument again. If 'you' feel 'you' are one of those people, maybe 'you' need to take a break.

Sorry vic I do agree with you!

I just thought the main reason for the ban was due to Fine Linens insane amount of cut and paste.....

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Follow the truths of Jesus and you won't struggle so much with all that confusion.

The only confusion I have here is trying to understand you.

What kind of person would create something that is an abomination to himself :-?

That is insanity !

It's not that it is an abomination "to" himself. It is an "opposite" of himself.

know the difference.

Again, it is evident in chemistry, it is evident in All of nature, in All of Creation. There are Set laws, set rules of absolute order in ALL things, that are in opposition to them. God gives us the answers to harnessing the powers of and within each principality. Tt is a choice. It is up to us, by order of the "Will" that is within each one of us, that God gave to us freely " a gift of life" that we are to learn what it is that saves us from the harm "the di-ease" of that which opposes the "good will" of God.

Rocket science?

There are absolutes in life. We need to learn from Godly wisdom, how to reign over that which is liken to cause the opposite of what God created us for. If we oppose God (Godly principles of the Holy, that which prospers, that which heals, that which is blessed,) then we are not living in anything but that which opposes that which God appointed for us to achive. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Follow Jesus. Jesus knew of these opposing forces. They are named Satan/devil/evil and all those other names that are related to the principles that are ruled by these certain powers that be.

Do you see it yet?


It is a choice. We opposed that choice to be 'In His Good Will' way back in the garden of Eden. So then.... God in His loving mercy and grace. Sent Jesus to show us the way, the truth, and the life. without being veiled.

The new testament is the old testament "unveiled". When Jesus died on the cross that veiled wisdom/communication with God. that which was hidden (in part) was torn in two. The veil was torn. We are given redemption and saving, through Christ Jesus. Follow Jesus, the truth, the way and the life is IN All that He IS. He is our "living" example. He teaches us How to resist and to overcome that which is opposed to that which is deemed Holy/Sanctified by the Good Will of God. It saves us "from" that which leads us to 'torment' in the Lake of Fire.


I don't know how else to share in this forum except that I post a ton of scritpures and some people here just don't appreciate some of us using scritpure to get the message accross. :roll:

God bless. :bday:


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Relic, do you really think that the enemy is the opposite of God? That is ludicrous. In order to be the opposite of something the two things would have to be in the same league. They are not.

And while God may be the creator of the evil one, He is not the One who brought about evil. That would be completely contrary to His character.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Yeah, but it doesn't make them any less true!

I agree!

Interesting how we could talk about reincarnartion, Islamic ethics, meditation.....

but not other "certain" doctrines that have to do with the topic of hell...

Why is that?

Maybe because its true!

Sometimes the things of God are contrary to what people want to hear so they shut them out.

 

[wavy]

I'm starting to feel that I'm purposefully being ignored...

Ah well...

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm starting to feel that I'm purposefully being ignored...

Ah well...

Huh?

:wink:


The word 'purposefully' might be true, wavy. I think you've perhaps raised a question that has folks a little stumped.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I'm starting to feel that I'm purposefully being ignored...

Ah well...

*everybody be really really quiet and pretend we can't hear Wavy*



:-D :angel: