Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[Drew]

Okay, we are working here on the concept of what is meant by "for ever and ever" . Then we can determine the definition of "torment" and, if it is indeed, a thing which is "for ever and ever, or just the "smoke of it" is what is that which is in the "for ever and ever", or not. Correct?

Yes, once these definition of certain "words" "in context to how they were written" is settled, then hopefuly, the understanding of whether "torment" is "for ever and ever" , or not, will be settled. yes?

A qualified "yes" to both questions. I don't like focusing on single verses, even if they support my position. I think we need to look at the whole picture presented by the Scriptures. My position is as follows:

1. I "admit" that there are verses which, on a plain, literal reading suggest eternal torment.

2. There are also texts which suggest that the fate of the wicked is death and not hell.

3. On balance, I think the scriptures support annihilation of the wicked. I must emphasize the power of guibox's case. He has shown us OT texts where words like "forever" and "unquenchable" are used in a sense that we know do not connote a literal eternity of time (e.g. we know that S&G are not burning today). To me, this is a devastating crititque of the "eternal tomrent" position, because I accept the internal coherence of the scriptures. I believe that only Gary has attempted any kind of a real counter-argument that actually engages what guibox has written. Without repeating the objection, I believe that it was satisfactorily addressed. I find that the lack of a credible engagement of what I will call the "guibox argument" to be significant.

4. Scriptures aside, my sense of what love is contradicts the notion of eternal torment.

The metaphorical analogy cannot contradict the spiritual force that is being relayed through scripture.

What is it about this that you don't understand?

I humbly suggest that your statement is so vague that few will understand what you are asserting. I simply do not understand what this statement means.

 

[guibox]

I believe that only Gary has attempted any kind of a real counter-argument that actually engages what guibox has written. Without repeating the objection, I believe that it was satisfactorily addressed. I find that the lack of a credible engagement of what I will call the "guibox argument" to be significant

:-D How flattering! An argument named after ME?? Wow!

I have to say that lovely is making a strong attempt biblically as well. The rest..well. I really question the kind of God our brethren here really WANT to serve when they are presented with another viable, more biblical, more loving, just and merciful argument of annihilation but would rather choose the one that makes God a keeper of a Nazi camp.

Again I ask. What kind of god do you serve? What inner blood lust for revenge and suffering makes one so desperate to hold on to this argument when biblical and moral reasoning is against it?

Who knows.

 

[lovely]

lovely wrote:

guibox, thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed delving into Scripture with you. Even though we do not agree, It was a blessing for me. I pray the Lord blesses you.

Sputnikboy wrote:

I'm sorry, lovely, but I find it difficult - almost offensive - to reconcile the 'oh so nice' tone of your posts with that of someone who can't recognize the attrocious notion behind that of a God-sanctioned version of a Nazi 'death camp'. At least the 6 million Jews were given the opportunity to die. Perhaps it's just me.

Sputnik, this is a matter of your heart, not mine. If there is love in my heart for guibox, or anyone else on this board, it is only because Christ dwells there. The statement that you quoted, of mine above, was truthful, and my heart was full with it when I typed it. I am not a loving person by nature, you hit the nail on the head, and for that I have only the blood of Christ, and His love in my heart, to help guide, discipline, and strengthen me to reflect Him. However, if you are offended by the love of God dwelling in one of His children, then you should be concerned about your own heart, be mindful of the measure in which you judge others, and know that your own sin is being revealed in every word you write. Judge me righteously, and if you have a word of truth for me...I pray I receive it, and ask forgiveness no matter how you say it to me, because if it is truth, it orginates from God, the source. But, I see no truth in your words. No attempt to come to me in love, and explain, Bibically, my error. I see only another base tactic to make not trusting God's Word above your own ideas semantically appealing, but that is the error. I do not apologize for trusting in God, and His Word, above those who wish to make Him fit into their concept of who He is...making Him a liar, and in your case, equating Him with Hitler. If that offends you, or makes you uncomfortable, and you can not love me in your disagreement, then maybe there is no love in you, but self-righteousness, and a strong desire to exalt yourself. I am not responsible for your reaction, you are. God is not just something to discuss, and certainly not in a careless manner. He is someone...the One Creator of all, of whom all of His children should desire to exalt above themselves. And when I am discussing His Word with someone else ,who says they are a believer, and studying it to get to know Him better, it is a huge blessing, wether I agree with them or not. I was blessed by this discussion, and specfically by my interraction with guibox. You desire to antagonize me, and lash out at me. I will be honest, Sputnik, you do not have to. The evil that you assume of me is true, but the residing love of God in my heart is more true. Now maybe that rings trite in your ears, and I am sorry for you if it does...sincerely sorry. I do not have to agree with guibox to show love, or be blessed by him. I do not agree with you, and others in this thread, and I do not apologize for it. I believe I am right, I believe Scripture supports what I have written here, and I made an honest attempt to share it. I do not care if anyone is impressed by it, or not. I am just sharing my faith, my instruction, God's Word, and my heart. It has been open here in front of you...judge it. I do not want to make God a liar, I do not want to deny His Word. I want to be given over to Him in every area...not just online, or in this discussion. I want to discuss religion, while having a heart that desires to obey Christ, and put that very faith that I am speaking of in practice way deep in the secret places of my heart. This is a burning desire given by God, and does not have anything to do with me. So, judge me, I am a sinner, full of fault, clumsy, guilty, but the good thatt I do, and the love I express...that is God alone. So, be careful not to judge Him, in me. Be careful not to cast His love in a "Oh so nice" light. Judge me in a righteous manner, and correct me, in love, if you feel I am wrong, and encourage me to search my heart. Tell me the truth in sincere love, and pray that I respond in a way that is restorative. If you have any further problems with my interractions on this board, please pm me, and we can work it out there. I will be happy to listen. I pray the Lord Jesus bless you today.

edited: to correct my quotes.

 

[Drew]

:-D How flattering! An argument named after ME?? Wow!

I use the term "guibox argument" to cover the general argument that the OT (sometimes at least) uses terms like "forever" in a manner that cannot mean "of unending duration", given some facts that are inarguable (e.g. S&G are not burning today) and that the principle of "letting the Bible define its own terms" mandates we interpret these terms the same way in the NT. If you (guibox) think I have misrepresented you, please let me know.

I have to say that lovely is making a strong attempt biblically as well.

I agree, lovely indeed made a serious Biblical argument, and I should have acknowledged this. It is when we actually make cases, actually argue a position (and not just declare it) that we make progress. So kudos to lovely for taking the high road.

 

[Heidi]

There will be as many beliefs as there are people in the world, but they obviously can't all be right. But the only one who has shown he has the authority to know these answers is Jesus Christ. Therefore, the truth can only be found in the bible and there are 30+ passages of Christ's words that talk about eternal torment for unbelievers. So those who believe Jesus is lying are free to pass along their wisdom to others. But Jesus says they will be held accountble for their arrogance and the lives they affect in doing so. So they've been warned and are free to disregard it at their own peril. :wink:

 

[Relic]

There will be as many beliefs as there are people in the world, but they obviously can't all be right. But the only one who has shown he has the authority to know these answers is Jesus Christ. Therefore, the truth can only be found in the bible and there are 30+ passages of Christ's words that talk about eternal torment for unbelievers. So those who believe Jesus is lying are free to pass along their wisdom to others. But Jesus says they will be held accountble for their arrogance and the lives they affect in doing so. So they've been warned and are free to disregard it at their own peril. :wink:

Thank you Heidi.

============


The words of Jesus while teaching yet another parable:

• 
  Luke 16:19-31
  19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
  20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
  21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
  22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
  23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
  24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
  
  25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
  
  26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
  
  27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
  28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
  29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
  30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
  
  31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Sound to me like an example of the consequences that come out of being stubborn "unrepentant".

Also sound to me like the old cliche... " You made your bed, now you must sleep in it".

It's all about choice. And God gives us over to those choices. God never refuses us to hear the truth, but he never will compromise the difference between good and evil and the consequences that follow suite to each it's own. He created both the good and the evil, yes. But he did right from the start, in the garden of Eden, speak to them to not partake of that certain tree. God's wants us to only focus on Him, to look to Him, His truth, not the evil that is of the opposite of Him.
Those that follow Satan/the crafty devil. They too have a place. We have a choice, right from the start. The unrepentant are stubborn in their foolishness and refuse to see the opportunity to transform, by the "renewing" of the mind-set.


Why would God eliminate the very existence of the opposites of his goodness? In doing so, that would totally contradict all laws of order in existence.
The only thing that works together in His order of all things, is to follow that which rules the principle that rules it. God's goodness is in line with a set principle. The whole lessons in life are for us to learn what principles to follow. The powers that be in accordance to the principle. The Holy spirit is our guide sent by God. Jesus is our example. The holy spirit in Him speaks, the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus says, follow me. The rich man of this world do not do that. They are stuck in their own selfish stubborn vainly. The consequences of not being willing to "follow" the "holy" spirit. By saying there is no torment for ever and ever, is to say that God eliminates (annihilates) that place in which the unrepentant reside. And that is just not the case. God does have a place of torment. It is that place in which the Devil is cast into, to reside for ever and ever.
There are fires that burn which bring about testing and transformation, and then there are fires that burn in which torment exists because the "unrepentant" is stubborn and refuses transformation.


God gives us all our own "will". We have choice. Consequences do not go away. Consequences are the effect of the cause.

We are "redeemed" from. If the spirit in man refuses the "process" of redemption...... :-? Well, figure it out. :roll:

I ask this..... to those of you who don't believe in torment that lasts for ever and ever.
Is Satan the only one/spirit that is allowed to have the choice to turn his back on God?
Remember, the devil/Satan has followers. Those that are just as stubborn as he is, are those who are going to receive the consequences that are in line with following evil.
What of Satan? Does the bible teach of him and his followers being redeemed from their own stubbornness in sin?
No, they have a place. It is called the Lake of Fire, it is a place of torment, for ever and ever. Revelation 20: 7-10

------------------

• Romans 11:22
  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
  
  Romans 13:1-5
  1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
  2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
  3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
  4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
  5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

God does not eliminate evil. He casts it to it's place. It resides in it's place,
for ever and ever. And oh, that place is a place of torment! Satan is the very depiction of torment!

• Revelations 20:7-10
  7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
  8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
  9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
  10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Each thing has it's place. You can't say that God makes a thing to not be anymore. What God does do is "transform" things into a new thing. But the stubborn will not be transformed because they refuse to be.

Suffice it to say.... Torment is a thing which is in the "for ever and ever".



.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Relic ...don't some questions come into your mind when the rich man in the parable is asking only for a damp finger to cool his tongue? What kind of torment does the parable refer to? Does it EVER say that the rich man is in ETERNAL torment? Why do you assume he is? Isn't there something about the parable that doesn't sound 'real' to you ...as if its a 'cartoon'?

The rich man is still capable of talking quite at length considering that he's in torment. And even then it's just his tongue that requires cooling off. The rest of his body doesn't seem to be causing him any problems. Hardly someone in torment. He even shows concerm about his brethren while 'in torment'. What kind of a wicked man is he when he places others above himself?

No questions at all, Relic? Or is every word in this parable literal to you? This truth of the matter is that this parable is illustrative and it is not referring to the state of the dead anyway! The true intent of the parable has been explained on this forum more times than I care to count. Take heed of the final words in the parable, Relic, as they say MUCH. If you're concentrating on 'eternal torment' and haven't a clue about the ACTUAL message as told by Jesus, then the parable has been totally lost on you. But then, Jesus wasn't talking to you anyway. He was talking to His specific audience.

 

[Relic]

Relic ...don't some questions come into your mind when the rich man in the parable is asking only for a damp finger to cool his tongue? What kind of torment does the parable refer to? Does it EVER say that the rich man is in ETERNAL torment? Why do you assume he is? Isn't there something about the parable that doesn't sound 'real' to you ...as if its a 'cartoon'?

The rich man is still capable of talking quite at length considering that he's in torment. And even then it's just his tongue that requires cooling off. The rest of his body doesn't seem to be causing him any problems. Hardly someone in torment. He even shows concerm about his brethren while 'in torment'. What kind of a wicked man is he when he places others above himself?

No questions at all, Relic? Or is every word in this parable literal to you? This truth of the matter is that this parable is illustrative and it is not referring to the state of the dead anyway! The true intent of the parable has been explained on this forum more times than I care to count. Take heed of the final words in the parable, Relic, as they say MUCH. If you're concentrating on 'eternal torment' and haven't a clue about the ACTUAL message as told by Jesus, then the parable has been totally lost on you. But then, Jesus wasn't talking to you anyway. He was talking to His specific audience.

:o So much of your post is so way out in left field. Sputnick do you realize the contradictions in your own words here?

I'll give you time to think about that.

.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Relic ...don't some questions come into your mind when the rich man in the parable is asking only for a damp finger to cool his tongue? What kind of torment does the parable refer to? Does it EVER say that the rich man is in ETERNAL torment? Why do you assume he is? Isn't there something about the parable that doesn't sound 'real' to you ...as if its a 'cartoon'?

The rich man is still capable of talking quite at length considering that he's in torment. And even then it's just his tongue that requires cooling off. The rest of his body doesn't seem to be causing him any problems. Hardly someone in torment. He even shows concerm about his brethren while 'in torment'. What kind of a wicked man is he when he places others above himself?

No questions at all, Relic? Or is every word in this parable literal to you? This truth of the matter is that this parable is illustrative and it is not referring to the state of the dead anyway! The true intent of the parable has been explained on this forum more times than I care to count. Take heed of the final words in the parable, Relic, as they say MUCH. If you're concentrating on 'eternal torment' and haven't a clue about the ACTUAL message as told by Jesus, then the parable has been totally lost on you. But then, Jesus wasn't talking to you anyway. He was talking to His specific audience.

Sput, when you base your entire theology on a sandy foundation, you have to never question it. You have to just keep packing more sand around the places it crumbles from so you never have to wonder if it is a good building.

Doesn't leave much time for critical thinking and questions.

 

[Relic]

Relic ...don't some questions come into your mind when the rich man in the parable is asking only for a damp finger to cool his tongue? What kind of torment does the parable refer to? Does it EVER say that the rich man is in ETERNAL torment? Why do you assume he is? Isn't there something about the parable that doesn't sound 'real' to you ...as if its a 'cartoon'?

The rich man is still capable of talking quite at length considering that he's in torment. And even then it's just his tongue that requires cooling off. The rest of his body doesn't seem to be causing him any problems. Hardly someone in torment. He even shows concerm about his brethren while 'in torment'. What kind of a wicked man is he when he places others above himself?

No questions at all, Relic? Or is every word in this parable literal to you? This truth of the matter is that this parable is illustrative and it is not referring to the state of the dead anyway! The true intent of the parable has been explained on this forum more times than I care to count. Take heed of the final words in the parable, Relic, as they say MUCH. If you're concentrating on 'eternal torment' and haven't a clue about the ACTUAL message as told by Jesus, then the parable has been totally lost on you. But then, Jesus wasn't talking to you anyway. He was talking to His specific audience.

Sput, when you base your entire theology on a sandy foundation, you have to never question it. You have to just keep packing more sand around the places it crumbles from so you never have to wonder if it is a good building.

Doesn't leave much time for critical thinking and questions.

Your little digs are really unecessary. If you want to join in on the topic then do so and leave your rude comments out.

Why should anyone even continue on with you guys if you're both going to throw personal jabs around.

I have my reply ready for SputnikBoy, I was waiting for his reply to look over his message once again to see the contradictions in it. If he can't find them I will be more than willing to show him. And I am not here to be mean hearted or nasty mouthed. So I ask you to just take your garbage comments out of this Forum.

.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Interesting,

The majority of people here do not believe in eternal torment.....

So that leaves annihilationism or .......

I wont say it....

 

[Relic]

Interesting,

The majority of people here do not believe in eternal torment.....

So that leaves annihilationism or .......

I wont say it....

Where do you get that?

Seriously SomaSight,
I am not being mean or wanting to cause a harsh feeling, but I must ask you this, did you actually count how many people do not believe in eternal torment?

If you think about it, there are a lot of lurkers here that don't post. And there are manyhere that post a few messages on the topic but leave after the debate seems to be at a stale mate. I don't blame them.... With remarks like the one's Sputnik and Lyric's Dad have been throwing around.... it is not something I am looking forward to continuing on because of their "personal" jabs. Those who are not really serious in getting a discussion going without throwing personal stabs at people should just bud out.


And if SputnikBoy doesn't stop doing it. I will post my findings without replying to him. If I am in error it would be nice if I was told without cruel remarks and guessing on how I see things.
SputnikBoy, I do not view the scritpure as them being some kind of a cartoon, btw! :-? That was not nice of you to post such a remark, at all.



.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Relic,

Come on man!

No hard feelings!

Who wants eternal torment to be true anyways?

Nobody that I know of.

Its a false doctrine and makes no sense anyways....

Go to google and see how twisted the Greek has become.

Annihilationism is a much better option and more in tune with scripture.

There are other doctrines but they are not allowed to be spoken of.... :roll:

 

[Soma-Sight]

I am not being mean or wanting to cause a harsh feeling, but I must ask you this, did you actually count how many people do not believe in eternal torment?

13,

The majority?

 

[guibox]

And there are manyhere that post a few messages on the topic but leave after the debate seems to be at a stale mate. I don't blame them.... With remarks like the one's Sputnik and Lyric's Dad have been throwing around.... it is not something I am looking forward to continuing on because of their "personal" jabs. Those who are not really serious in getting a discussion going without throwing personal stabs at people should just bud out.

Stalemate? I have yet to see not only a cohesive biblical argument from most of you (Other than your favorite horse beater, Matthew 25:46) never mind even a general attempt to discredit the NUMEROUS bible verses I've put forth on annihilation or the exegetical explanation of many of these verses by the rest of scriptures (ex: Revelation 14:10,11 ---> Isaiah 34:10)

From a stalemate, my friend. Let's not be too modest, shall we?

 

[Windozer]

The concept of eternal torment includes an attempt to motivate another with fear.

Human beings usually fight or flee when confronted with fear.

I can't envision God wanting us to ether fight him, or flee from him?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Which is quite the opposite of fear.

Eternal torment??? Can't really get my head around that one.

 

[Relic]

The concept of eternal torment includes an attempt to motivate another with fear.

Human beings usually fight or flee when confronted with fear.

I can't envision God wanting us to ether fight him, or flee from him?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Which is quite the opposite of fear.

Eternal torment??? Can't really get my head around that one.

Why do you guys keep denying the fact that God created both good and evil and that he gave warning in the garden of eden for Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of "Knowledge" OF Good and Evil.

God gave us free will. if you don't understand that we have free will to choose which to focus on.

Like it or not. God created opposites and those laws reside in all things. Spiritual and material.

He loves us so much that since we took our focus off of His Good Will (being fallen) He Gave us his only begotten Son as a means of "redemption" FROM the things of this world. He Sent us Jesus to save us from sin. Jesus gave us a way to resist and overcome the things of this world.

You can't deny that God created both good and evil and that each has it's ruling principles and the powers that are in each one has a ruler. Who are you to assume that God didn't allow free will. But only uses us like robots Would you stop your child from danger? Yes, but you can't stop the fact that evil is in existence. God created it. Like it or not. Focus on the good will of God through our Lord and savior. The way, the truth and the life. Esle you focus on the opposite of the truth and the life and follow after the wrong path.

Why don't you see that God is not going to annihilate opposites?

.All things in Life itself proves the workings of creator God.

Youcan't dictate that God is going to eliminate one just for you to be happy.

NO He will show you how to focus on the Good Will for His glory.

HE never promised to eliminate the opposite force. He has a place for all things. And that is forever and ever. Without end.

.
.

 

[wavy]

I have a question. How many torments are there?

I need a quick (emphasis on "quick" if you can't tell :-D ) chronology of the events of Revelation 14:9-11 as compared with Revelation 20:10-15 as it pertaines to satan and the white throne judgment of the second resurrection.

Why do I ask this?

Well, I want to know if there are two fire and brimstones. In Revelation 14, it says people will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and his malachim/messengers. So if the lake of fire and brimstone is to be described as separation from Elohim, then please explain this to me.

Are there two torments and two lake of fires and brimstones? Or is it the same one but some type of "transfer" occurs to where they are moved from the presence to some other place not in the prescence.

Just need a little clarification.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Relic ...don't some questions come into your mind when the rich man in the parable is asking only for a damp finger to cool his tongue? What kind of torment does the parable refer to? Does it EVER say that the rich man is in ETERNAL torment? Why do you assume he is? Isn't there something about the parable that doesn't sound 'real' to you ...as if its a 'cartoon'?

The rich man is still capable of talking quite at length considering that he's in torment. And even then it's just his tongue that requires cooling off. The rest of his body doesn't seem to be causing him any problems. Hardly someone in torment. He even shows concerm about his brethren while 'in torment'. What kind of a wicked man is he when he places others above himself?

No questions at all, Relic? Or is every word in this parable literal to you? This truth of the matter is that this parable is illustrative and it is not referring to the state of the dead anyway! The true intent of the parable has been explained on this forum more times than I care to count. Take heed of the final words in the parable, Relic, as they say MUCH. If you're concentrating on 'eternal torment' and haven't a clue about the ACTUAL message as told by Jesus, then the parable has been totally lost on you. But then, Jesus wasn't talking to you anyway. He was talking to His specific audience.

Sput, when you base your entire theology on a sandy foundation, you have to never question it. You have to just keep packing more sand around the places it crumbles from so you never have to wonder if it is a good building.

Doesn't leave much time for critical thinking and questions.

Your little digs are really unecessary. If you want to join in on the topic then do so and leave your rude comments out.

Why should anyone even continue on with you guys if you're both going to throw personal jabs around.

I have my reply ready for SputnikBoy, I was waiting for his reply to look over his message once again to see the contradictions in it. If he can't find them I will be more than willing to show him. And I am not here to be mean hearted or nasty mouthed. So I ask you to just take your garbage comments out of this Forum.

.

Ah, but the preaching of a foundation of sand is very Biblical. So now it is only hellfire and damnation preachers that can use the Bible?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

There are other doctrines but they are not allowed to be spoken of.... :roll:

Yeah, but it doesn't make them any less true! :-D