Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[Gary]

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Micah 7:18 ("Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.") is pitted against verses indicating eternal punishment, but none of the verses indicate that God's anger will last forever, just His judgment.

http://www.tektonics.org/af/ebeextra.html#lk148

 

[wavy]

but none of the verses indicate that God's anger will last forever, just His judgment.

His judgement does last forever, true. Still does not prove writhing in pain for all eternity...

 

[Gary]

Hell Will Last as Long as Does God

The Bible declares that God will endure forever (Psalm 90:1-2). Indeed, He had no beginning and has no end (Revelation 1:8). He created all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-16), and He will abide after this world is destroyed (2 Peter 3:10-12). But God, by His very nature, cannot tolerate evil (Isaiah 6; Habakkuk 1:13). Hence, evil persons must be separated from God forever. As long as God is God and evil is evil, the latter must be separated from the former.

 

[wavy]

Hence, evil persons must be separated from God forever. As long as God is God and evil is evil, the latter must be separated from the former.

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

So if you were annihilated, then you'd truly be separated. Burning in fire forever as a means of "separation from God" is a manmade concept based on man's perception.

 

[Gary]

Nowhere does the Bible describe it as a “torture chamber†where people are forced against their will to be tortured. This is a caricature created by unbelievers to justify their reaction that the God who sends people to hell is cruel. This does not mean that hell is not a place of torment. Jesus said it was (Luke 16:24). But unlike torture which is inflicted from without against one’s will, torment is self-inflicted.

Hell Will Last as Long as Heaven Does

Heaven is described as “everlasting†in the Bible. But the same Greek word (aionion), used in the same context, also affirmed that hell is “everlasting†(Matthew 25:41; Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 20:10). So, if heaven is forever, so is hell. There is absolutely no ground in Scripture for supposing that hell is temporal and heaven is eternal.
Nor is there a possibility of getting out of hell. A great gulf is fixed so no one can leave (Luke 16:26). Judgment begins immediately after death (John 8:21; Hebrews 9:27).

 

[wavy]

Heaven is described as “everlasting†in the Bible. But the same Greek word (aionion), used in the same context, also affirmed that hell is “everlasting†(Matthew 25:41; Matthew 25:46; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Revelation 20:10). So, if heaven is forever, so is hell. There is absolutely no ground in Scripture for supposing that hell is temporal and heaven is eternal.

Never created a distinction.

Nor is there a possibility of getting out of hell. A great gulf is fixed so no one can leave (Luke 16:26).

That is something completely different. That has to do with Abraham's bosom. The gulf (whatever it may be) is there so no one can cross over to Abraham's bosom, which I believed was emptied at the resurrection of Messiah and all who were in it were taken to heaven.

Judgment begins immediately after death (John 8:21; Hebrews 9:27).

John 8:21 has nothing to do with anything (must be a typo). I don't think Hebrew means judgment occurs the moment one dies. The rich man in Luke 16 must have skipped it...

The point is that men die once. There is no second chance.

 

[Rick W]

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[guibox]

Nowhere does the Bible describe it as a “torture chamber†where people are forced against their will to be tortured. This is a caricature created by unbelievers to justify their reaction that the God who sends people to hell is cruel. This does not mean that hell is not a place of torment. Jesus said it was (Luke 16:24). But unlike torture which is inflicted from without against one’s will, torment is self-inflicted.... A great gulf is fixed so no one can leave (Luke 16:26). Judgment begins immediately after death (John 8:21; Hebrews 9:27).

Gary, Gary, Gary...when are you going to take off those Catholic glasses and see the truth of scripture?

The eternal fires at the end of time occur at the end of time, not at death. The bible makes this quite plain. Luke 16 is not an expose on the judgement of the wicked at death. The word for 'hell' here is 'hades'. The judgement fire that torments the wicked at the end of time is 'gehenna'.

You cannot use Luke 16 to interpret Revelation 20 because they are different places and different times. Nowhere in the other 10 uses of Hades shows that it is a place of torment or that 'souls' are conscious there.

The wicked do not have immortal souls and they are in their graves awaiting judgement and the second resurrection where they will be finally judged and sent to the lake of fire.

Please study the Bible properly instead of following the midieval theology on the afterlife you have been so trained to do. All it does is confuse.

 

[Gary]

LOL... first time I have been called a Roman Catholic. Do I need one of those hats? :bday: guibox, guibox, guibox... please tell me.

:o

guibox, guibox, I am sure Norman Geisler and JI Packer who I have been quoting would also find it very funny being called Roman Catholic!

:-?

The wicked do not have immortal souls and they are in their graves awaiting judgement and the second resurrection where they will be finally judged and sent to the lake of fire.

Really? Why not provide proof.

Please study the Bible properly instead of following the midieval theology on the afterlife you have been so trained to do. All it does is confuse.

What is "midieval" theology?

:-? :-?

 

[bibleberean]

26 Heaven and Hell
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

The word "Sheol" means a "hollow subterranean place," therefore "Hades" must mean the same.

It has "gates," for Jesus said that the "Gates of Hell" (Hades), should not prevail against the Church. Mt 16:18. And Jesus after His return from "The Underworld," said-- "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the `KEYS' (of the Gates) of hell (Hades) and of death (the Grave)." Re 1:18.

To get these "Keys" Jesus had to descend into the "lower parts of the earth." Eph 4:9. The Apostolic Creed says that Jesus descended into "Hell" (Hades).

Therefore Hades, or "The Underworld," must be in the "heart of the earth," and is so pictured on the Chart. Jesus said to the penitent Thief "TODAY shalt thou be with me in `Paradise.'" Lu 23:43. And as Jesus "that day" descended into "The Underworld" or "Hades," "Paradise" must have been in Christ's day in "Hades." But as it had been prophesied of Jesus that His "SOUL" (for His body was in Joseph's Tomb on the surface of the earth) should not remain in "Hell" (Hades), (Ps 16:10; Ac 2:27), therefore, before His body could see corruption, Jesus came back from "Hades." But He did not come back alone. He seized the "Keys of Hades," unlocked the Gates of the Paradise Section in which He was confined, and emptied it of its captives, and when He ascended on high He took them to the Paradise section of the "Third Heaven", where they now are, and since then the Paradise Section of "The Underworld" has been empty. Eph 4:8-10.

In the account of the experience of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" in the other world (Lu 16:19-31), Jesus gives us a description of "The Underworld" as it was in His day. According to the narrative, for it is not a parable, for parables do not give proper names as Abraham and Lazarus, both the "Rich Man" and Lazarus had died and their bodies had been buried, and what happened to them in the "Underworld," was descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state."

In that state they were conscious, could see, hear, speak, and recognized each other. The difference was that Lazarus was in the "Paradise" section of the "Underworld", typified by Abraham's "bosom," while the "Rich Man" was in the "Hell" section , not the final Hell, which is "Gehenna" (Lake of Fire), but in the section of the "Underworld" where the "souls" of the "Wicked" dead go, and remain until the resurrection of the "Wicked" dead. Between the "Paradise" section, and the "Hell" section of the "Underworld" there is an "Impassable Gulf", (Lu 16:26), which reveals the fact that there is no possibility of the "Wicked" dead ever getting out of "Hell" into "Paradise."

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 

[guibox]

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Oh goodness!!!

Do we need to hash out the parable of Luke 16 again and again?

The truth is out there!!

Please look at this link, read, learn and enjoy!

PLEASE EVERYBODY!!!

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

 

[bibleberean]

Therefore Hades, or "The Underworld," must be in the "heart of the earth," and is so pictured on the Chart. Jesus said to the penitent Thief "TODAY shalt thou be with me in `Paradise.'" Lu 23:43. And as Jesus "that day" descended into "The Underworld" or "Hades," "Paradise" must have been in Christ's day in "Hades." But as it had been prophesied of Jesus that His "SOUL" (for His body was in Joseph's Tomb on the surface of the earth) should not remain in "Hell" (Hades), (Ps 16:10; Ac 2:27), therefore, before His body could see corruption, Jesus came back from "Hades." But He did not come back alone. He seized the "Keys of Hades," unlocked the Gates of the Paradise Section in which He was confined, and emptied it of its captives, and when He ascended on high He took them to the Paradise section of the "Third Heaven", where they now are, and since then the Paradise Section of "The Underworld" has been empty. Eph 4:8-10.

In the account of the experience of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" in the other world (Lu 16:19-31), Jesus gives us a description of "The Underworld" as it was in His day. According to the narrative, for it is not a parable, for parables do not give proper names as Abraham and Lazarus, both the "Rich Man" and Lazarus had died and their bodies had been buried, and what happened to them in the "Underworld," was descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state."

In that state they were conscious, could see, hear, speak, and recognized each other. The difference was that Lazarus was in the "Paradise" section of the "Underworld", typified by Abraham's "bosom," while the "Rich Man" was in the "Hell" section , not the final Hell, which is "Gehenna" (Lake of Fire), but in the section of the "Underworld" where the "souls" of the "Wicked" dead go, and remain until the resurrection of the "Wicked" dead. Between the "Paradise" section, and the "Hell" section of the "Underworld" there is an "Impassable Gulf", (Lu 16:26), which reveals the fact that there is no possibility of the "Wicked" dead ever getting out of "Hell" into "Paradise."

Clarence Larkin Rightly Dividing the Word

 

[Gary]

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Oh goodness!!!

Do we need to hash out the parable of Luke 16 again and again?

The truth is out there!!

Please look at this link, read, learn and enjoy!

PLEASE EVERYBODY!!!

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

More UR rubbish from L. Ray Smith



Rebuttal?

Sure: Follow this link and scroll down to "Smith".

http://www.tektonics.org/TK-S.html

Smith, L. Ray
Proof that just because you buy a domain name "bible-truths.com" doesn't mean you know the Bible or are telling the truth.

Articles

Tithing Study -- a few comments at the end
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/tithe.html

On Aionios
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr01.html

On the Trinity
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr02.html

On Hell and the Afterlife
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr03.html

http://www.tektonics.org/TK-S.html

:roll:

 

[Mace Sin]

That's the point. Those who believe God to be unjust revolt against His judgments thereby revealing the spirit of rebellion.

"decides to cut the unbelievers from Him"
It's the unbeliever that made the decision not to believe God. Not believe in God but believe Him. He sent His Son to die for you Mace Sin. If you reject Christ then you reject The Father also.

"I smell a totalitarian government model brewing."
That's the normal humanistic knee-jerk reaction. But the totalitarian government is within oneself and that's what must be denied when accepting the freedom Christ has to offer. Our sinful nature has a very strong grip on us, our pride and self worth hold us hostage and reacts strongly to any outside "threat". It's us that are totalitarian unto ourselves, not God.

Sometimes rebellion is necessary--it evaluates what's right for you. Not simply following everything anyone says. (This arguement could work both ways, I know.)

 

[guibox]

More UR rubbish from L. Ray Smith



Rebuttal?

On Hell and the Afterlife
http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr03.html

This is an extremely poor effort at rebuttal. It harps on the little things while ignoring the many valid points that Smith makes. There is also error and assumption that they are right and Smith is wrong on some points when it is just the opposite. The views on the spirit and that there is awareness in Sheol are two prime examples.

To wash away valid points in using Psalms and Ecclesiastes which decimate this person's refutation, he chalks it up to 'poetry'.

How convenient.

The ultimate problems with any refutation of a proper exegetical interpretation of Luke 16 are these:

1) The unprovable belief that man has an immortal soul
2) That the spirit that returns to God is this 'soul' and is immortal in consciousness
3) That the wicked are automatically judged and conscious immediately after they die.

Without these three assumptions, the immortality of the soul/rewards at death cannot exist.

The problem here is...the bible does not support them and no evidence (when one looks at the linguistic and contextual evidence) is there to validate it.

When understands the this truth first of all (and one must when looking at the doctrine of eternal torment): that the wicked do not have immortal souls to be tortured, then one cannot interpret texts such as Revelation 14 and 20 to mean 'eternal torment' and these terms are symbolic, metaphoric for ultimate destruction.

When one understands the truth of the state of the wicked at death, the error of eternal torment falls by the wayside and the clear texts of annihilation stand out. When one believes that the wicked do have immortality, then one cannot get out of the rut that they will be tormented forever.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Therefore Hades, or "The Underworld," must be in the "heart of the earth," and is so pictured on the Chart. Jesus said to the penitent Thief "TODAY shalt thou be with me in `Paradise.'" Lu 23:43. And as Jesus "that day" descended into "The Underworld" or "Hades," "Paradise" must have been in Christ's day in "Hades." But as it had been prophesied of Jesus that His "SOUL" (for His body was in Joseph's Tomb on the surface of the earth) should not remain in "Hell" (Hades), (Ps 16:10; Ac 2:27), therefore, before His body could see corruption, Jesus came back from "Hades." But He did not come back alone. He seized the "Keys of Hades," unlocked the Gates of the Paradise Section in which He was confined, and emptied it of its captives, and when He ascended on high He took them to the Paradise section of the "Third Heaven", where they now are, and since then the Paradise Section of "The Underworld" has been empty. Eph 4:8-10.

In the account of the experience of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" in the other world (Lu 16:19-31), Jesus gives us a description of "The Underworld" as it was in His day. According to the narrative, for it is not a parable, for parables do not give proper names as Abraham and Lazarus, both the "Rich Man" and Lazarus had died and their bodies had been buried, and what happened to them in the "Underworld," was descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state."

In that state they were conscious, could see, hear, speak, and recognized each other. The difference was that Lazarus was in the "Paradise" section of the "Underworld", typified by Abraham's "bosom," while the "Rich Man" was in the "Hell" section , not the final Hell, which is "Gehenna" (Lake of Fire), but in the section of the "Underworld" where the "souls" of the "Wicked" dead go, and remain until the resurrection of the "Wicked" dead. Between the "Paradise" section, and the "Hell" section of the "Underworld" there is an "Impassable Gulf", (Lu 16:26), which reveals the fact that there is no possibility of the "Wicked" dead ever getting out of "Hell" into "Paradise."

Clarence Larkin Rightly Dividing the Word

Pure and unadulterated garbage!

 

[SputnikBoy]

More UR rubbish from L. Ray Smith

When are you guys going to catch on? The living are LIVING - forever. The dead are DEAD - forever.

The parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus is an illustration as told by Jesus based on a popular (but erroneous) belief of the day and intended for the audience He was targetting. This has completely gone over your head, yet you talk like an expert on the topic. This is a PARABLE and in no way is intended to give a graphic description of a LITERAL hell. Jesus illustrates hell in this manner to push a greater point. This point, as guibox rightly mentioned, has been explained on this forum scores of times previously. The evidence ignored yet again confirms the fact that the blind will remain blind.

 

[Soma-Sight]

gary, BB and other eternal tomenters...

please explain away my earlier statement...

You must have eternal life to be eternally tormented...



No. Eternal Hellfire doctrine is based on misconceptions over Greek translations.

The Bible teaches Eternal Life in Heaven for those in Christ.

The Bible does not teach Eternal Life in Hell.

 

[Soma-Sight]

This forum does not allow the discussion of Universal Reconciliation. When it decides, if ever, to rescinde that stance then I will get in on this subject.

Suffice it to say that my Lord and my God is not a maniac.

LD,

Nice avatar.... :wink:

 

[SputnikBoy]

I've come to the conclusion that 'punishment' is a personal thing that lies within the heart of the individual. Those Christians who in their hearts want to string someone up will no doubt opt for a God that would want do the same thing. The Bible says otherwise but nothing - even the Bible - will convince them that God is not a heartless tyrant. Oftentimes God is a reflection of who we would have Him be ...often ourselves. If someone desires that there be everlasting torment for the wicked, then that's what God will do to the wicked.