Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[peace4all]

you know why this subject ticks me off?


sure, I am a proclaimed atheist, I deny god etc etc..

however

my brother, an agnostic by choice, donates blood every 114 days (he does double red donations) he is enrolled in several college classes that have him work, one on one with deaf and disabled children, teaching them sign language, and anything else. He also volunteers at an adult developmental disability center, once a week, and every saturday, he works with children with limited mobility in a pool. He volunteers abotu 40% of his free time.

However, He is going to hell because of it.

Doesn't that just make ya think?

 

[Solo]

you know why this subject ticks me off?


sure, I am a proclaimed atheist, I deny god etc etc..

however

my brother, an agnostic by choice, donates blood every 114 days (he does double red donations) he is enrolled in several college classes that have him work, one on one with deaf and disabled children, teaching them sign language, and anything else. He also volunteers at an adult developmental disability center, once a week, and every saturday, he works with children with limited mobility in a pool. He volunteers abotu 40% of his free time.

However, He is going to hell because of it.

Doesn't that just make ya think?

Each of us has a choice to make concerning our eternity. We can pay the price for our own sin, or we can accept the free gift of Jesus paying the price for our sin. Unbelief in the creator is that which separates those that have eternal life from those that have everlasting punishment. Good works does not gain anyone entrance into God's kingdom. Only by believing the Word of God will anyone be born again by the Spirit of God and allowed to see and enter the Kingdom of God.

You have made the statement above concerning your brother, "my brother, an agnostic by choice". It is the choices that we make in this temporary life that will deal our hand in the eternal. If you truly love your brother as I believe you do, I would be getting off of that atheist horse, and ask God almighty to save you so that you can see the truth of God and teach your loved ones of the salvation that exists in the Lord Jesus Christ. Today is the day to believe in Jesus Christ for tomorrow may never come.

 

[Windozer]

However, He is going to hell because of it.

If your brother goes to hell it won't be for that.
And if he goes to Heaven it won't be for that.

Good works won't get you to any of them.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I've come to the conclusion that 'punishment' is a personal thing that lies within the heart of the individual.

And, how to do come to that conclusion?
what scripture(s) can you provide to show this as biblical truth?
I'm not in any way meaning to perturb you at all, , I am truly curious as to how you come to these finding and conclusions of yours. What scripture(s) brought you to that conclusion?

Relic, the scriptures re this topic have been presented and analyzed MANY times previously. I see no point at all in regurgitating yet again what will subsequently be ignored anyway.

Those Christians who in their hearts want to string someone up will no doubt opt for a God that would want do the same thing.

What are you talking about? "string someone up" where do you get that from? precisely, please.

Do you REALLY need me to expound on this? I thought that it was fairly evident. I will, however, suggest that you do something, Relic. If you go back and read the posts of those who appear to relish the idea of a hell that torments forever, you will also see by their attitude toward ‘sinners’ in general that this is the perspective from where they are coming. They hate sinners with a passion and desire for them to pay for their sins. So, this is how they also perceive God. Have you caught on yet?

The Bible says otherwise but nothing - even the Bible - will convince them that God is not a heartless tyrant.

Where in the bible? What scriptures are you refering to?

And who here is saying God is a heartless tyrant? Shocking, just shocking! :o

Precisely who, please?

So many unanswered questions, eh? Okay, here goes. Read my lips …THOSE WHO WOULD HAVE GOD TORMENT HUMAN BEINGS FOR ETERNITY ARE THOSE WHO ARE SAYING THAT GOD IS A TYRANT! Sorry for yelling but I don’t seem to be getting through. The ‘shocking’ part about all of this is that professed Christians don’t seem to have a problem with a God who would do this.

Oftentimes God is a reflection of who we would have Him be ...often ourselves.

Where did that come from? Anyone particular in mind?

Oh …yes! But I dare not mention any people by name. There are several. Are you among them, Relic?

Or are you generalizing again?

I’m basing my ‘theory’ on the general attitude these people display toward sinners. Again, are you one of them, Relic?

Curious, what bible verse did you derive that from?

This may sound strange, Relic, but God gave me the Bible PLUS a brain with which to think and to reason with. And, I DO use that God-given brain with which to reason on occasions.

Or who brought you to that frame of thought?

Um, my God-given reasoning skills.

If someone desires that there be everlasting torment for the wicked, then that's what God will do to the wicked.

Huh? :o

Are you just pretending to go simple on me, Relic, or are you really as d . . .oh, never mind.

Again, which scriptures do you gather that data from?
Who influenced you to think such, by way of who's comments or actions did you conclude such thoughts?

Or are you throwing around a bunch of sarcasm?

Oh my …you’re beginning to sound like one of my uni lecturers. I’m not sure whether or not she knows what she’s talking about either.

No, no sarcasm, Relic …aside from a touch of that in the previous sentence. This is too serious an issue than for me to be treating it with such levity. This IS a serious issue and some of you guys need to be treating it with the same respect that it deserves. Some of you are saying that God is a tyrant …worse than a Hitler. At least the 6-million plus Jews who suffered at the hands of the Nazi regime WERE exterminated so their suffering was only temporary.

Please do share, so that those who don't know you will have scriptures and quotes of others, to compare your final thoughts on the matter.

You wouldn't want to leave anyone in a confused state of mind over your conclusions and findings now, would you? Quotes from others along with Scriptural references would clear that up in a flash. :D

My views on this issue leave NO ONE in a confused state of mind, Relic! You need to back up on this forum and check out my consistent, unwavering stand on this issue. And stop with the patronizing tone. It’s silly.

So please, do share your facts and not speculations in these regards so we can compare your thoughts as they might be from, or, should be, or, are in accordance to, or, are in line with biblical precepts and principles.

You know, it being from a biblical perspective in all. :D

Much obliged,

:wink:

Please don’t give me this cocky attitude, Relic. You’re embarrassing yourself. The facts are that you and others don’t know your Bible as well as you might believe you do. You don’t know the figurative from the literal in this case. I do. You don’t know the symbolic from the actual in this case. I do. You don’t know the point that Jesus was making to those He was speaking to in this case. I do. You don’t know WHY He was speaking to them in the manner that He was speaking to them in this case. I do.

Until you get this clear in your mind and stop listening to others you choose to side with, Relic, you won’t grasp the intent of these scriptures no matter how many times they are dangled in front of you. Guibox already said it very well.

 

[Gary]

Again we see the "love" shining through from the "there is no eternal hell" group.

By their fruits we know them.

 

[Gary]

The atheists ... what difference does it make? Their logic about even debating the topic beats me.

If they are so sure God does not exist then neither does hell. Why worry?

They only have this time on earth to consider. Why waste time even debating the topic with people they think are wrong? Makes little logical sense.

I find it interesting that the atheist side with the "there is no eternal hell" little group. Says something really....

 

[peace4all]

but don't you think that someone whose only sin, is not believing in the creator?


I mean, what about all teh cultures that have never been exposed to christianity? pre-colonized america? japan and china until the last 200 years?

are they all stricken to hell too, solely because god was never made available to them?

 

[Gary]

but don't you think that someone whose only sin, is not believing in the creator?

You choose not to believe in your Creator in spite of the evidence. You choose not to spend eternity with your Creator.

Guess what? Your wish comes true!



As for the second part of your set of questions, they are not really part of the topic. But here is the answer anyway:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/469

.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The atheists ... what difference does it make? Their logic about even debating the topic beats me.

If they are so sure God does not exist then neither does hell. Why worry?

Gary, I don't want to get into an argument with you ...truly I don't. In fact, I wasn't even going to respond to your post to exclude that possibility.

However, I DO need to respond. No one is saying that there is no 'hell' as such. What I and others ARE saying is that those destined for hell will not be tormented forever ...that they will perish and be no more. The unrighteous will be burned up as stubble, nothing of them will be left (Malachi 4:1-3). The torment that is referred to in Revelation 14:11 is figurative or symbolic in that the wicked will have been burned up and will consequently not attain eternal life. As the righteous will attain salvation, the unrighteous will attain loss of salvation. As those saved will attain eternal life, those unsaved will attain eternal death.

They only have this time on earth to consider. Why waste time even debating the topic with people they think are wrong? Makes little logical sense.

Do you really think - and I ask this gently - that there is any justification to make ANYONE, regardless of their sin, suffer literally for eternity? You, Gary, and some others appear to be proponents of 'bigger' sins (homosexuality) and 'lesser' sins (lying) so are you now saying that eternal suffering (punishment for sins) will be metered out equally?

I find it interesting that the atheist side with the "there is no eternal hell" little group. Says something really....

Not sure what you're getting at here, Gary. But, please don't belittle those of us - if that is what you are doing - who see in the scriptures that annihilation of the unrighteous is clearly stated and has been discussed on the forum in detail many times.

 

[Gary]

No one is saying that there is no 'hell' as such.

huh? So now do atheists believe there IS hell?

Again I repeat... why would an atheist debate the whole concept of hell? He thinks God does not exist. He therefore believes that hell does not exist either.

 

[antitox]

The lake of fire is the Spirit which purifies from all sins which will be torment to those who wish to hang onto them. Imagine the eons of pain trying to deny the Spirit of what He is there to do. Imagine the pain of pure love being poured over that which hates the love.

Amazing. You are totally redefining biblical truth. You can't handle the thought of eternal fire so you reinterpret based on your inability to accept it.
Hey, I am not able to handle it either, but I know that I must accept it because He has presented that. If you do not wish to accept it, no one is going to force you to do so, but I can only hope it won't affect the rest of your biblical understanding.

 

[Windozer]

huh? So now do atheists believe there IS hell?

Well I know some atheists that think life is hell.

And I know some atheists who think Christians are are crazy. and therefore are living in hell. LOL

 

[Jay T]

One of Satan's greatest lies is there is no Hell.

It is satan's lie that there is an everlasting punishment in hell.
The Bible confirms that there is a hell, but not an everlasting one.

 

[guibox]

I will (again) make up a proper exegetical study on Revelation 14:10,11 and the terms and language used to describe the fate of the wicked.

I'm sure it will all come to naught, but until we can properly look at all the evidence instead of creating a theology based on a few ambiguous texts, nobody is going to come to any agreement on the matter.

I hope that when I do approach it, we look at it with common sense, an open mind and use our own logical thinking processes to analyze the information.

It will be coming soon.

Guibox

 

[Solo]

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... 0085a.html[/url][/quote:fa003]Not biting.


Rule 16: No debating Universal Reconciliation
Due to the disruption caused by the topic Universal Reconciliation, it will no longer be debated or discussed on this board.

We really should stick to the TOS here, eh? I am not going to debate this topic whatsoever. I know where I stand and have no need to convince anyone of that place. This thread is walking that line though.

As a moderator of this board, I have already overstepped the bounds of the rules and need to get back in line with them. This thread from it's beginning is actually out of step with those rules.

Other then saying to Peace4all that he need not worry about his friend, I am checking out of this discussion in order to get back in line with the rules we are supposed to be upholding.[/quote:fa003]
Great. This thread is not for those that want to argue Universalism as does Martin Zender (Whom you posted as a reference in an earlier post).
Thanks for assisting in getting this topic back in line for discussing that Jesus teaches an everlasting punishment and everlasting fire for those that are not chosen.

PS You do seem to have a knack of swinging threads away from their original topical discussion, and on to a personnal "wild rabbit". :wink:

 

[Soma-Sight]

Edited for Rules Violation - Do not discuss your beliefs on the Universal Reconciliation doctrine. A formal warning will be issued the next time.

 

[peace4all]

but don't you think that someone whose only sin, is not believing in the creator?

You choose not to believe in your Creator in spite of the evidence. You choose not to spend eternity with your Creator.

Guess what? Your wish comes true!



As for the second part of your set of questions, they are not really part of the topic. But here is the answer anyway:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/469

.

gary.. that site seems to be conflicting. The first half seems to say that some unbelievers will be graced by gods infinite love, yet the end states otherwaise.

Since Christ is the Word of God and the Truth of God, he may be received even by those who have not heard of his manifestation in the flesh.... We have, therefore, the hope that even among the heathen there may be some...who under the guidance of the Holy Spirit working through the truth of nature and conscience, have found the way to life and salvation (p. 843, emp. added).

and then

The phrase “no one cometh unto the Father, but by me†is clearly a universal negative which states in positive terms, “all men who come to the Father, come by me.†If the only ones who come to the Father are those who come by way of Jesus Christ, then it is apparent that all who do not know Jesus will be lost. There can be no salvation in Buddha, Mohammed, Hari Krishna, or any other name other than the name of Jesus (Acts 4:12) [1993, p. 176, emp. in orig.].

AHHH!!!

 

[peace4all]

No one is saying that there is no 'hell' as such.

huh? So now do atheists believe there IS hell?

Again I repeat... why would an atheist debate the whole concept of hell? He thinks God does not exist. He therefore believes that hell does not exist either.

gary.

Why would I debate the existance of God, if I believe he doesn't exist? I still do it.

Most atheists are won over by facts. If you could prove, that God exists, then a mjaority of atheists, wouldn't be atheists (not all but a majority)

the problems are in the fact that you cannot prove it any better than we can prove god Doesn't exist..

 

[wavy]

the problems are in the fact that you cannot prove it any better than we can prove god Doesn't exist..

Capitalized "Doesn't", but not "god"? :

Just a joke. I don't care. But anyway, the problem is that there's no evidence for an athesit and you can't prove a negative.

So I'd say to all that instead of bible thumping, just don't debate. Let people be. They'll come to acceptance the existence of a deity in they're normal life or they will not.

I don't think it's something that can be decided by arguing of the net. :-D

I've tried to argue with many atheists online before. It only pushes them further away, imo. If they had questions or something, I'd answer them. But debating? I wouldn't advise it.

Of course, this is only my opinion.

 

[peace4all]

well, I rarely debate on if God exists or not, I usually debate more along the lines of "is it right to persecute non christians, in a christian tradition?"

but many atheists do argue for or against the existance of god mainly, and so. idunno.

my train of thought just derailed and caught on fire.