Did Muhammad ever encourage deceit? YES or NO

[Rick the holypig]

hold on! that wasnt rape- they were married!

anytime a 9 year old child & a 54 your old man is involved it is rape. even with a ring

 

[cheese]

Well thats not how rape is defined in Islam. Islamically it is defined as forced sexual intercourse outside of marriage. And this definition is important becuase the islamic punishment for rape is severe and so the term cannot be used as lightly as it is today.

 

[jgredline]

Cheese does a 9 year old and a 54 year old married sound right to you?

 

[cheese]

*sigh*

maybe if they lived today and were living in our country they would be classified as marriage by the law but you know what, in their time under their laws, they were married. There was concent, proper procedures etc.. thus they were married.

 

[undertow]

Re: Being honest.... unlike Muhammad and Muslims

cheese, I also forgot something. Very specific.

(1) I prefer to be honest and not use deception nor tell lies to my wife.

(2) I also prefer not to hide my religion nor lie about my faith (like Muhammad allowed and Muslims still do today)....

As I said, deception and lies and the life of your prophet and his immediate followers vs. the life and deeds of Jesus Christ and His immediate followers is what differentiates (amongst many other things) Muslims from Christians.

Hi gary, I'm sure you know that followers of Jesus have been willing to lie for the faith. One example would be the "Testimonium Flavianum" which has had additions made to it in an attempt to create evidence for the Christian faith. (If anything was said at all.) Christian deception may even go back to the Bible itself. A number of its books are suspected forgeries, (e.g. 2 Peter) and that is a form of deception of course. I have recently given a quote from a Bible scholar who is of the opinion that the appendix to the Gospel of John contains verses that were made up to try and deal with the problem of Jesus having made a mistake in a prophecy that he gave, which would also be a kind of lying for the faith. Personally I think the problem is with fundamentalist forms of religion whether that is Islam or Christianity or anything else. With that kind of religion, people are seemingly brainwashed by it and honesty goes out the window. I don't pretend to know exactly how their minds work, but perhaps believers think it sinful to question their faith. They can become completely unable to look at their own religion in an honest or critical way. Perhaps for some people it then isn't too much of a step to indulging in outright lies to promote the faith.

 

[Joudie]

I'm sorry for resurrecting this thread even though the last post was put a little over two months ago...

However...

Cheese did a pretty good job describing Islam. I didn't agree with everything he said (pertaining to Shiites (Shia's) especially) but he did a pretty darn good job. He had quite a bit of patience too, which I commend.

I can tell by Gary's replies that he reads Cheese's posts while fully expecting them to be lies. I'm starting to believe that if I told Gary that in Islam, it is believed that 1 + 2 = 3, he'd say no it doesn't because the equation 1+ 2 = 3 cannot possibly exist in Islamic teachings. It's just way too full of lies for that. He is so biased, so horrendously biased, it is useless trying to debate at all. I wish I read through this thread earlier, but I didn't have time when it was on top of the list, and then I kinda forgot about it as it drifted to the bottom.

Jgredline...I am genuinely sorry if the first thing you think about is "terrorist" when you hear the word "Muslim". I hope I never get any such negative connotations pertaining to any religion. I hope one day you'll realize that there are millions of peaceful Muslims...but that may be too much to hope for.

This is by far the saddest thread I've ever read here. Ever.

You are sitting here judging a religion that is not even yours to the face of a person much more knowledgeable than you. You "debunk" him and put words in his mouth and draw your own conclusions. It's like you enjoy having him stick around because you could throw more garbage his way. Very Christian-like! Really! I am inspired.

Let's say if I came on this forum in search of knowledge about Christianity from devoted Christians because I was thinking of converting or becoming one...and I read this thread? I'd never want anything to do with a Christian ever. You are very bad representatives of your religion. It's a sad shame really. A really huge shame. Too bad you'll never see it. I thought religion was supposed to open your eyes and see the world in all its God-given glory...but yours are shut tighter than if they were sewn by the world's best seamstress.

I cannot judge on your characters as a whole, and I won't because I don't know you. I only know the religious side of you...and this has told me you are very biased and lovers of ridiculing those who are trying to defend a huge religion that you have no trouble slinging mud at. It's very sad...very, very sad.

Correct me if I have misunderstood you. Though I doubt it, I've read through the thread carefully and you've done nothing except pull things out of context from the Hadith and the Qur'an, and also liberally use extremely anti-Islamic websites. You will gain respect from no one if this is the way you defend your religion or prove your religion is the right way compared to the one someone else already has. You do nothing except make non-Christians more defensive! Is this the way you want to spread God's Word? If it is, it's a crying shame.

 

[Gary]

Muhammad or Jesus? I select Jesus Christ..

Deep down you know what I say is true. You have access to the same Quran and the same Hadith that I have.

Deep down you feel disturbed about the life and actions of your prophet.

Deep down you realise that Jesus taught and lived a very different life and showed a completely different set of morals and ethics to what your prophet displayed.

Deep down you know you are missing something.

That something is a loving, working, living and growing relationship with the Lord through Jesus Christ. What better example to follow than Him....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are so sure that what I have written about Muhammad is wrong, how come you have yet been unable to show me where I was wrong?

 

[Joudie]

HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

God...my side just cramped...that was by far the funniest thing you've ever said!

Sorry if you weren't meaning to be funny...but thanks. You gave me a good laugh, which is something I very rarely get on this site.

You know, it's really not like Cheese hasn't tried to show you where you were wrong a million gajillion times already. You're just going to see what you want to see. You can't possibly bring yourself to see the bigger picture. You already have your mind closed around something and you refuse to bust it open, if even a crack, just to see something else. You're very comfortable exactly where you are...and you don't want to be moved out of your comfort zone.

And that's okay. Just don't give people the impression that you want to debate when all you're going to do is argue in circles, using sources that aren't even legitimate, or if they are, your interpretation of them is way off. I'm sure many people thought at first that you were up for a good argument, including me, but you are a very disappointing person to discuss such matters with. All you want to do is show off that you're right and they're wrong and twist things to suit your own views. I'm not going to waste my time debating with such a person. I'd be spending my time much more productively if I was holding a philosophical discussion with the wall behind this monitor about the morality/immorality of capital punishment. I'd bet that I'd get much more intelligent questions too.

I have already wasted my time trying to show other members, with mentalities very similar to yours, that Islam is not a religion bent on warfare, but they, like you, still insist on picking and choosing verses from the Qur'an/Hadith to "prove" your points.

You don't know how much you're hurting your credibility in the eyes of those who have an ounce of brains and don't believe everything they read. Like I said, if I was someone very interested in converting to Christianity and I read many Islam-related threads on this website I'd hardly think very highly of you because you use very biased websites and don't properly listen to or comprehend those who are putting up some pretty good arguments.

Would it kill you if you found out that Islam is really not all that bad? I hope it would because that's the only reason I can understand your utter refusal to believe so. If your life depends on it, than I won't discuss this with you further, because I don't want to kill you if I can get you to change your mind.

Hehe, then again, even if your life didn't depend on it, I still wouldn't be able to get you to change your mind. Lord knows I've tried...

 

[Solo]

Muslims are no different than any other unbeliever. They believe that they are correct as they reject the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus taught all that those who refuse to come to the light will remain in darkness so that their deeds are not manifested in the light of God's word.

No surprise. When the Islam apologists face Dave... they have nothing to offer, as he knows their false teachings, and lack of eternal life. The only Muslims that believe they have eternal life are the suicide bombers and their promise of 70 virgins; all of the rest just hope they are saved.

They will all see Allah, but he will be very disappointing when they see him.

 

[Joudie]

Sure, Solo, completely disregard everything that was written in this nine-page thread.

Whatever you say, my man. Whatever you say.

 

[Solo]

Sure, Solo, completely disregard everything that was written in this nine-page thread.

Whatever you say, my man. Whatever you say.

It looks like you are the one who has disregarded everything but what you have posted on this nine-page thread. Also, why are you posting on a Christian site instead of a Muslim site. Don't you think that your time would be better spent with those of your own beliefs?

 

[Soma-Sight]

Jesus trumps Muhammad.

 

[Joudie]

Actually, I do go to a Muslim website. They're really pretty friendly over there too, and by that I mean to non-Muslims (including Christians) as well as Muslims.

The reason I stick around here often is because I like to hear differing beliefs, different takes on things. I've said this before; I'm not trying to promote a religion or make Islam sound superior to Christianity. That is not me, nor is it something that is even advantageous to me in any way. If I came off sounding like that to anyone, then I want to clear up that it is not my intention.

All I really do here is try to show you a different take on Islam...all I want to do is say that it is not what you think it is. Here, let's see if I can think up a good analogy.

Let's say you think Satanists are people who worship Satan (the Satan of the Bible). You think of them as people who kill children and make bloody sacrifices to a universal force of evil. You know many reputable people who think the same thing, so that every time you hear the word "Satanist", images of fire, human sacrifice and fanged people in long black robes come to mind.

A man can come along and tell you that Satanists actually don't worship Satan (Lucifer/Beelzebub) but that Satanism is really a way of worshipping yourself--because they believe that it is *you* who is in charge of your own destiny, not some higher power. They don't even believe in the Satan of the Bible, because the Satan of the Bible depends on the God of the Bible, and since you can't have one without the other, they believe in neither. This doesn't mean there aren't people who *do* worship the devil and make sacrifices and whatnot, but they are wrongly associated with the word "Satanism" or "Satanists".

However, this doesn't make Satanism right or better or superior than Christianity--but all this person is doing is clearing up a few misconceptions. What you can say now is, "Oh, I see, but I still believe it is faulty because..." so on and so forth. Satanism doesn't *have* to be about worshipping evil and human sacrifice for it to be wrong, you know.

That's all I'm doing concerning Islam. I'm just telling you it is misunderstood. Not better. You can still believe it is wrong...but not for the reasons you make it out to be.

Do you understand what I mean now?

It just seems that people here are very adamant about making Islam out to be something very evil, when it isn't...which is why I was asking why you seem so ready to jump down people's throats when they defend it.

Besides, whenever you want information about something, isn't the best thing to do is to go to an expert? Like, when you want information about rhinoplasty, you go to a plastic surgeon--not a pediatrician--although they are both certified medical doctors. Same thing with religion, usually. If you want to know more about Islam, you go to Muslims who know their religion best. If I want to know more about Judaism, I'll go ask a Jew. If I want to know more about Christianity, I'd go ask a Christian or come to websites like this. Doesn't this sound logical?

The thing is, unlike something like rhinoplasty, religion isn't very black-and-white and scientific. People interpret it in different ways, there is no denying that. (Looking at all the different denominations in Christianity alone is proof of this.) So you have to be careful choosing those whom you look to for information. Some are too extreme, some are too liberal, some are out to sully names of religions, while others are out to shove them down people's throats. The key is to keep an open and intelligent mind when it comes to sources. Like, if I want to know more about Christianity, I can't go to a website entilted "jesusliedtoyou" (I have no idea if that is a real website or not, I just made it up for the sake of the post) or something like that because that just screams "anti-Christian" and biasness. Wouldn't you agree?

Then why go to sites so aptly named "prophetofdoom" and/or "answering-islam" which are sites that are from the start against what they are talking about? I told another member this: I'd admire your argument much more if you went to a pro-Islam site and were able to still show me that its beliefs are wrong. I gave this example before: I can go to an anti-KKK site to prove the KKK is wrong. But what's so hard about that? I'm just parroting what the site is saying because they were against them from the start. I can easily go to a pro-KKK site and prove that it is racist and wrong, even when the people are trying to make it out to be something positive.

See?

If you have anything you'd like me to re-clarify just ask. Or comment. I look forward to your replies.

 

[Solo]

Actually, I do go to a Muslim website. They're really pretty friendly over there too, and by that I mean to non-Muslims (including Christians) as well as Muslims.

The reason I stick around here often is because I like to hear differing beliefs, different takes on things. I've said this before; I'm not trying to promote a religion or make Islam sound superior to Christianity. That is not me, nor is it something that is even advantageous to me in any way. If I came off sounding like that to anyone, then I want to clear up that it is not my intention.

All I really do here is try to show you a different take on Islam...all I want to do is say that it is not what you think it is. Here, let's see if I can think up a good analogy.

Let's say you think Satanists are people who worship Satan (the Satan of the Bible). You think of them as people who kill children and make bloody sacrifices to a universal force of evil. You know many reputable people who think the same thing, so that every time you hear the word "Satanist", images of fire, human sacrifice and fanged people in long black robes come to mind.

A man can come along and tell you that Satanists actually don't worship Satan (Lucifer/Beelzebub) but that Satanism is really a way of worshipping yourself--because they believe that it is *you* who is in charge of your own destiny, not some higher power. They don't even believe in the Satan of the Bible, because the Satan of the Bible depends on the God of the Bible, and since you can't have one without the other, they believe in neither. This doesn't mean there aren't people who *do* worship the devil and make sacrifices and whatnot, but they are wrongly associated with the word "Satanism" or "Satanists".

However, this doesn't make Satanism right or better or superior than Christianity--but all this person is doing is clearing up a few misconceptions. What you can say now is, "Oh, I see, but I still believe it is faulty because..." so on and so forth. Satanism doesn't *have* to be about worshipping evil and human sacrifice for it to be wrong, you know.

That's all I'm doing concerning Islam. I'm just telling you it is misunderstood. Not better. You can still believe it is wrong...but not for the reasons you make it out to be.

Do you understand what I mean now?

It just seems that people here are very adamant about making Islam out to be something very evil, when it isn't...which is why I was asking why you seem so ready to jump down people's throats when they defend it.

Besides, whenever you want information about something, isn't the best thing to do is to go to an expert? Like, when you want information about rhinoplasty, you go to a plastic surgeon--not a pediatrician--although they are both certified medical doctors. Same thing with religion, usually. If you want to know more about Islam, you go to Muslims who know their religion best. If I want to know more about Judaism, I'll go ask a Jew. If I want to know more about Christianity, I'd go ask a Christian or come to websites like this. Doesn't this sound logical?

The thing is, unlike something like rhinoplasty, religion isn't very black-and-white and scientific. People interpret it in different ways, there is no denying that. (Looking at all the different denominations in Christianity alone is proof of this.) So you have to be careful choosing those whom you look to for information. Some are too extreme, some are too liberal, some are out to sully names of religions, while others are out to shove them down people's throats. The key is to keep an open and intelligent mind when it comes to sources. Like, if I want to know more about Christianity, I can't go to a website entilted "jesusliedtoyou" (I have no idea if that is a real website or not, I just made it up for the sake of the post) or something like that because that just screams "anti-Christian" and biasness. Wouldn't you agree?

Then why go to sites so aptly named "prophetofdoom" and/or "answering-islam" which are sites that are from the start against what they are talking about? I told another member this: I'd admire your argument much more if you went to a pro-Islam site and were able to still show me that its beliefs are wrong. I gave this example before: I can go to an anti-KKK site to prove the KKK is wrong. But what's so hard about that? I'm just parroting what the site is saying because they were against them from the start. I can easily go to a pro-KKK site and prove that it is racist and wrong, even when the people are trying to make it out to be something positive.

See?

If you have anything you'd like me to re-clarify just ask. Or comment. I look forward to your replies.

You make a great analogy and sincere plea for understanding of Islam, however, your great analogy is faulty if what Jesus teaches is true. If what Jesus teaches is true, Mohammad is a liar, and his way leads to destruction for the whole of Muslims, not only in this world, but in the world to come.

You place Islam and Satanic beliefs on an equal plane with the truth of Jesus Christ. I must believe that Mohammad and Satan are on the same playing field as Jesus when coming to an understanding of which belief system tells the truth. Satanists may say that they do not worship satan by participating in bloody sacrifices of animals and children, and they may not or they lie about the practice. Either way they still worship satan who has followers that kill animals and children, and no satanist speaks out against the terrible religious beliefs of satanists. Likewise, those Muslims who follow Mohammad and his teachings may not perform suicide bombings, or killing of innocent men, women, and children, but Mohammad has killed those who disagreed with him and teaches that death to the infidels is the practice for Islam to become worldwide worship of Allah; and like the non-sacraficing satanists, they are either lying or they are not speaking out against the terrible religious beliefs of Mohammad.

I haven't read about any Christian suicide bombings lately, nor have I heard about any Christians flying jets into skyscrapers killing thousands of people. I haven't heard of any Christians bombing other Christians because of their stand against Christians that bomb innocents, nor have I heard of any Christians bombing anyone for furthering their religious beliefs over others. I don't hear about Christians mutilating the genitalia of their women, nor do I hear of any Christians beheading non-Christians because they wanted to make a point to the news media. I don't know of any Christians who have hijacked commercial jetliners in the past 30 years, nor do I know any Christians who have schools that teach hatred towards non-Christians. I haven't seen any Christians rioting and jumping up and down screaming for the death of non-Christians as they burn an effigy of some non-Christian. All of this I have witnessed the Muslims doing, and I do not see Muslims stand up to cease this type of action from occuring within this religion. All I see is puppets following their puppet masters stir up anger and hatred against non-Muslims and down the road we go. I might believe you if I saw any Muslim nations stand up and fight against this type of garbage, but I don't. Why? Because they are Muslims!

 

[Joudie]

Solo...

I'm going to scream. But don't worry, it's not what you said. I just had a nice long reply written out...and then it got deleted before I could save it. I am REALLY...just...ARGH!

I'll get back to you. I had a pretty good answer though. SHEESH!

 

[Solo]

Author is Rick Matthews a member of Prison Ministry.

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say.

The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith for Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the "Diversification" training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.

 

[Joudie]

That's been posted in another thread before. Big load of horse manure, as far as I'm concerned. If it did, indeed, happen, then that cleric should trade his turban for a pointed white hat with the word "DUNCE" written on it in big black lettering. Anyone who really knows their religion would know how to answer those questions with complete ease. Nothing special.

 

[Solo]

That's been posted in another thread before. Big load of horse manure, as far as I'm concerned. If it did, indeed, happen, then that cleric should trade his turban for a pointed white hat with the word "DUNCE" written on it in big black lettering. Anyone who really knows their religion would know how to answer those questions with complete ease. Nothing special.

Well they could have lied when answering the questions. Islam is not a belief system given to man for salvation. It is a religious system born of man by his satanic influences. Mohammad was not a prophet of God. He was a selfish moron led away by satan by his own lusts.

 

[Joudie]

Anyone, and I mean anyone, can lie, Solo. It isn't restricted to non-Christians. I'm sure you know that.

All anyone has to do is read the Qur'an, with an open mind, and understand it. Understand the hadiths. Understand the context. And you'll see that it is a perfectly good and Godly religion that people seem to be so easily able to twist it up. Anyone can twist a Holy Book (that includes the Bible) up...that's not difficult. What's difficult is ascertaining the true messages behind it. You and Gary and many others on this board seem content to read the Qur'an superficially and ridicule Muslims who defend it to their faces as if they know nothing. This is highly disrespectful, if you ask me.

As long as you are adamant in believing that Muhammad was a "moron" then there is no discussing this issue with you. The problem is you don't debate. See, debating is when you are open to other people's thoughts and ideas, you take them into consideration. You don't do this in the least. You just "refute" everything one says, according to your own warped opinions and "knowledge". Like I said, I'd have a more enlightening experience talking to a brick wall. I do not say this lightly, believe you me.

If you don't reply to anything specific in this post, at least reply to this:

Why are you so adamant in believing that Islam is evil? What if you found out it wasn't? Would it leave you devastated? Disappointed? It seems you cannot even fathom the thought of Islam being a religion rooted in goodwill and tolerance and a beautiful relationship with God. You have not, in any post, said anything to the credit of Islam. (If you have, I haven't seen it and would appreciate links).

I mean, if I thought a religion or ideology was bad, and someone was showing me, through good resources and valid knowledge, that it was in fact, not what I thought...then I'd be very happy that there is one thing less in this world that is not so evil. Why do you want Islam to be evil so badly? Why?

Please answer this, I've asked it several times and have yet to recieve a well-thought out response. In fact, I find that it is usually ignored. I'd appreciate an answer, at least for the part above.

 

[AHIMSA]

Why are you so adamant in believing that Islam is evil?

Joudie,

The fundmentalist psyche literally requires an enemy, a state of heated tension that it can constantly refer back to. The more it clashes, the more it is re-inforced...the more enemies the better. Look at the fundamentalist world....it will condemn someone to hell for the smallest infringment of doctrine. They spit fire at one another for the smallest of differences. The more they are told to be wrong....the more they are assured to be right. Its the "rejoice when persecuted" complex. Since the fundamentalist pysche has been split (Good v. evil, sinner v. saved, us v. them) It must project the idea of evil onto the world around it. Islam is an easy scapegoat at the moment.

The entire identity is derived only in opposition to something (thus the need for an enemy)...read fundamentalist literature, it spends far more time trying to negate someone else's view then reaping any productive spiritual fruit. Being beyond the rational faculty....I suspect you will get no answer.