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Did the biblical God create evil?

God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?
God created angels to run the heavens and Lucifer to govern the angels, they were created exactly as God intended with free will. You think he's disobeying God and using that to discredit God, but the truth is, God is using Lucifer/Satan to test our resolve and character. Please read this encounter between God and Satan below. Contrary to your belief, God GAVE Satan permission to harm Job, and Satan went in for the slaughter.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and [e]Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you [g]considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. (Job 1:6-12)
 
What flaw? The angels, all of them were created with freewill. The ability to choose to obey or disobey God.
Lucifer freely chose to disobey God.
You are blaming God for something another being's actions.
Were they? Even before God created the angels, he knew that the one you call Lucifer, would disobey him. It therefore stands to reason, that God created him for that purpose.
 
Were they? Even before God created the angels, he knew that the one you call Lucifer, would disobey him. It therefore stands to reason, that God created him for that purpose.
Actually, Lucifer/Satan obeyed God by harming Job, God gave him permission. God lifted that "hedge" of His divine protection from Job, otherwise Satan wouldn't be able to touch Job. After this, in the rest of this chapter, Satan's affliction escalated, but every step of the way he requires God's permission.
 
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Were they? Even before God created the angels, he knew that the one you call Lucifer, would disobey him. It therefore stands to reason, that God created him for that purpose.
Or it stands to reason that they have the ability to choose to obey or not.
 
Were they? Even before God created the angels, he knew that the one you call Lucifer, would disobey him. It therefore stands to reason, that God created him for that purpose.

No, it doesn't stand to reason. Your thinking here confuses certainty with necessity. It extends the fact that God in His omniscience is certain about what Satan will do into the realm of necessity: If God foreknows what will happen, if He is certain in this knowledge, then it must necessarily happen. Folks take this to mean that God's certainty about future events establishes the necessity of those events; His certainty makes it so that the event He foreknows must happen.

But though God is certain in His knowledge of future events, His certainty is not the cause of those events. The "certainty" of God only describes His condition; it doesn't describe the nature of the event He foreknows. His certainty is a "property" of persons, of conscious, self-aware beings. No stone, or broom handle, or rubber ball can be certain; they don't possess the properties of personhood that are required in order to have certainty. An event, too, cannot be certain, lacking as it does the required aspects of consciousness, self-awareness, etc. in order to be certain. It's not correct, then, to say "Because God foreknew what Satan would do it was certain that Satan would do it." This is ascribing to an event (what Satan would do) a property only possessed by persons.

Why is this a problem? Well, imagine an expectant mother who says, "My unborn baby will soil its diaper." Knowing as she does the nature of all healthy, newborn babies, that they have no control over their bowel movements, she knows her own baby (if it is healthy and normal), will inevitably, necessarily do the same. Does the mother's certainty about this diaper-filling event make the event necessary? Does the strength of her conviction that her baby will foul it's diaper make it so that the event must happen ? No, of course not. Her certainty doesn't make the event certain.

In the same way, God's certainty about future events, even though it is far greater than the expectant mother's certainty about her baby's diapers, does not make the events happen. God is certain in His knowledge of all that Satan will do but it is what Satan will do, what Satan's choices will be, about which God is certain. It isn't that God has determined what Satan will do, thus making his deeds necessary, but only that whatever Satan will, would, or could freely choose to do God knows (and has always known). So, the devil sets his own course and God just knows what it is. If there were some other course that Satan had followed to this present moment, God would have known that course. In either case, though, God's omniscience isn't a constantly, meticulously-determining, causal factor in Satan's choices; it is only knowledge - absolutely certain though it is - of what the devil will, would and could do.

In His omniscience, then, God has always known all that Satan will, would, or could freely do and He uses this knowledge to achieve His will in the midst of Satan's free choices (and the free choices of us all). God is not so small and weak that He must meticulously order everything so that He can "win" in the end. We wouldn't think much of a chess player who could only win under such a circumstance, right? No, God is so amazing, so incredible, so beyond us, that even when we are all of us freely making our own choices about a myriad of things all the time, God, in His omniscience, and omnipotence, and wisdom still achieves His will just as He wishes. Whatever "moves" we make on the "chess board" of our lives, God still "wins" - and handily.
 
No, it doesn't stand to reason. Your thinking here confuses certainty with necessity. It extends the fact that God in His omniscience is certain about what Satan will do into the realm of necessity: If God foreknows what will happen, if He is certain in this knowledge, then it must necessarily happen. Folks take this to mean that God's certainty about future events establishes the necessity of those events; His certainty makes it so that the event He foreknows must happen.
Correct. It must happen because no one, not even any angel, can perform an action that contradicts God's perfect knowledge. Do you disagree?

Why is this a problem? Well, imagine an expectant mother who says, "My unborn baby will soil its diaper." Knowing as she does the nature of all healthy, newborn babies, that they have no control over their bowel movements, she knows her own baby (if it is healthy and normal), will inevitably, necessarily do the same. Does the mother's certainty about this diaper-filling event make the event necessary? Does the strength of her conviction that her baby will foul it's diaper make it so that the event must happen ? No, of course not. Her certainty doesn't make the event certain.
That's not the same thing as being certain about something that has never happened before. If it were, then all of us would be omniscient.
 
Correct. It must happen because no one, not even any angel, can perform an action that contradicts God's perfect knowledge. Do you disagree?

I think that what God knows will come to pass is not, therefore, what He causes to come to pass. Knowledge and causation are not, in this instance, the same thing.

That's not the same thing as being certain about something that has never happened before. If it were, then all of us would be omniscient.

You're talking past my point, here. Do you understand what it was? If you do, you'll understand also that, as far as the point I was making is concerned, the uniqueness of God's foreknowledge is irrelevant. However unique it might be, God's foreknowledge doesn't equate to causation.
 
My thinking at the moment on your question is that, yes, we may lose our capacity to choose to do evil once we move on from here to be with God. But we are choosing this end by choosing submission to God now.

The longer I walk with God, the more my relationship with Him resolves down to whose will it is that will be done in my life. I am more and more in the habit of submitting to His will and way, and the more I am, the less the idea of being unable to choose evil causes me any consternation. In fact, I welcome such a circumstance; for under it, God's will may be done in my life without struggle, or half-measures.
I disagree. After a life time on this sinful earth seeing what sin causes, a new body without sinful lusts, and no one to tempt us into sinning who would want to choose to sin? Who would want to go back to evil?
 
I disagree. After a life time on this sinful earth seeing what sin causes, a new body without sinful lusts, and no one to tempt us into sinning who would want to choose to sin? Who would want to go back to evil?
Plenty, if not the vast majority, "this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (Jn. 3:19)
 
Plenty, if not the vast majority, "this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (Jn. 3:19)
That's here on earth. Why would anyone want to sin after seeing the horrific results of sin when the devil is no more and they no longer have a sinful flesh urging them into it?

That makes no sense to me. Sin is self destructiveness so what is there in the new earth compelling them to be self destructive?
 
I disagree. After a life time on this sinful earth seeing what sin causes, a new body without sinful lusts, and no one to tempt us into sinning who would want to choose to sin? Who would want to go back to evil?

I have no dogmatic view of the state-of-affairs regarding our capacity to sin in heaven. I don't think anyone knows for certain in what way we will exist in this regard in eternity.
 
I have no dogmatic view of the state-of-affairs regarding our capacity to sin in heaven. I don't think anyone knows for certain in what way we will exist in this regard in eternity.
Revelation 21: 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So if all the results of sin are gone so is sin itself.
 
Revelation 21: 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So if all the results of sin are gone so is sin itself.

None of the results of sin were present in Christ when he walked the earth, but he endured temptation to sin to the fullest extent humanly possible, nonetheless.

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


None of the results of sin were present in heaven when Satan rebelled against his Maker.
 
None of the results of sin were present in Christ when he walked the earth, but he endured temptation to sin to the fullest extent humanly possible, nonetheless.

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


None of the results of sin were present in heaven when Satan rebelled against his Maker.
Once again that was here on earth. Not in heaven.

But Lucifer was the author of all sin. His removal of sin and our knowledge of what he has done to us should be enough to cure all of us.
 
God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?

If I were designing/creating something, I wouldn't want to design it with a flaw so fatal that it can't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things, as that would be setting it up for doom. When god was designing Lucifer, he was designing him with a flaw so fatal that he couldn't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things. That was setting lucifer up for doom. Thats the tactics of a psychopathic designer.

The bible says that setting something up for doom is sin & evil. God must be evil by the Bibles logic.
Just me thinking, Know that the Father known as God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus the son was before the cosmos was ever created. One out of that realm decided to create on her own she had the power but not the consent of the Father. Because of that a strange thing happen, a dragon figure appeared instead of one liken to her. She hide him and gave him a throne below in the darkness. With much power and glory the dragon set himself up as God, The Father knowing all that will happen and the promise of everlasting life for man over rides the mistake she had done. This is the one called Satan, Lucifer, the Devil. This is why it is written he walked on the stones of fire and the morning star because he was their during creation of the cosmos. Pride set in believing he is the highest started this sin followed by the flesh being created so that he could rule. It is impossible for God to sin. He sends goodness to all realms and supports them.
 
That's here on earth. Why would anyone want to sin after seeing the horrific results of sin when the devil is no more and they no longer have a sinful flesh urging them into it?

That makes no sense to me. Sin is self destructiveness so what is there in the new earth compelling them to be self destructive?
Because they're gonna remain dead for a thousand years in the grave? "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
 
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against God so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty. Deuteronomy 27:11-26.
 
God created lucifer. For as long as Lucifer existed, he was disobeying god. That means when god was creating Lucifer, he was creating someone who couldn't figure out how to stop disobeying god. God knew he was doing that. How is that fair to Lucifer?

If I were designing/creating something, I wouldn't want to design it with a flaw so fatal that it can't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things, as that would be setting it up for doom. When god was designing Lucifer, he was designing him with a flaw so fatal that he couldn't ever be compatible to work well with other people & things. That was setting lucifer up for doom. Thats the tactics of a psychopathic designer.

The bible says that setting something up for doom is sin & evil. God must be evil by the Bibles logic.
I like and support what member TENCHI posted.

The name Lucifer occurs once in the Scriptures and only in some versions of the Bible. For example, the King James Version renders Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”

Lucifer is derived from the Latin word meaning to “shine.” The Hebrew word translates to mean “shining one.” There are other variations of rendering in other Bible translation/versions.

The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind--not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.-Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16.

The question that one may ask is why such an eminent description given to the Babylonian dynasty? We must realize that the king of Babylon was to be called the shining one only after his fall and in a taunting way. (Isaiah 14:3) Selfish pride prompted Babylon’s kings to elevate themselves above those around them. So great was the arrogance of the dynasty that it is portrayed as bragging.-Isaiah 14:13, 14.
 
Ezekiel chapter 28 . Pride was downfall for Lucifer. He went bad on his own. Lucifer was appointed to protect Mercy seat. Lucifer wanted the Mercy seat and to be messiah.

God didn't create Lucifer bad. Satan became evil on his own. Pride deteriorating his heart and mind. Instead of loving God, it became self worship.

Jeremiah chapter 4 tells us the first earth age became Void.
TOHU in Hebrew means = void.

Lucifer caused a rebellion in first earth age, one third of God's children followed satan in rebellion against God. Lucifer started war, to try to get Mercy seat.
Jeremiah chapter 4 to document.
Revelation chapter 12 to document.
Read it with understanding.

John chapter 3 . Each individual must decide in the flesh, to follow satan or Jesus. God wants to know who your going to choose. We're in second earth age.

Someone as evil as Charles Manson. You can't place God there. Manson had free will, and chose life of evil. He will never get out of prison.
He made his own decision. And it has nothing to do with God.

let's stop blaming God for decisions people make.

Lucifer made fatal decision in first earth age to try to get Mercy seat. And he's going into lake of fire on judgement day. Lucifer turned on God. Pride rotted away his heart, and he's too far gone to repent and change.

Love has to generate from within.

Jesus taught in Matthew chapter 18 . About humility. Jesus says you must become as children to enter kingdom of God.

Lucifer pride completely rotted away his mind and heart. He became evil from his own deteriorating heart.

God at one time loved Lucifer. But Lucifer turned on Jesus and wanted the Mercy seat. He caused a rebellion in first earth age. He can't be controlled.

Do you understand???

We know the truth. We know the answer.
 
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