Did we live as spirits before the earth was created?

[mamre]

I have read in Job that the morning stars and the sons of God shouted for joy when the earth was to be created. And yet Protestantism, or Christianity in general don't accept it as true. Why is that? See below:
Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Since we know that stars don't sing, then stands to reason that the scriptures is referring about people.

 

[Ahuli]

I have read in Job that the morning stars and the sons of God shouted for joy when the earth was to be created. And yet Protestantism, or Christianity in general don't accept it as true. Why is that? See below:
Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Since we know that stars don't sing, then stands to reason that the scriptures is referring about people.

Then you need to read the creation story again and also accept that God was around long before anything or anyone. He created the angels ... morning stars ... sons of God. Are you a son of God?

 

[mamre]

Then you need to read the creation story again and also accept that God was around long before anything or anyone. He created the angels ... morning stars ... sons of God. Are you a son of God?

I don't understand at all what your are saying here. Care to explain?

Thank you
mamre

 

[Free]

No, we did not pre-exist as spirit beings. "Morning stars" and "sons of God" refers to angels, not people.

 

[Mike]

From Isaiah 14:
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

And this about Satan, right? And Satan was an angel.

 

[faithtransforms]

morning stars are the angels. angels are often referred to as sons of God. we existed in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, but our souls did not come into existence until we were conceived.

 

[watchman F]

I have read in Job that the morning stars and the sons of God shouted for joy when the earth was to be created. And yet Protestantism, or Christianity in general don't accept it as true. Why is that? See below:
Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Since we know that stars don't sing, then stands to reason that the scriptures is referring about people.

Then you need to read the creation story again and also accept that God was around long before anything or anyone. He created the angels ... morning stars ... sons of God. Are you a son of God?

Well Ahuli, I do no think people were living as spirits before creation, but I am a son of God.

 

[Mike]

I realized I referenced the Isaiah 14, but I didn't answer the question in the post. No, I don't believe our spirits existed before we were created. Nowhere in the Bible is this stated.

God breathed life (spirit) into Adam. Gen 2:7 “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.â€

Mormon doctrine mistakenly teaches this based on Jeremiah. Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

But is this pre-existence or foreknowledge?

Romans 4 speaks to His foreknowledge. Rom 4:16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

 

[mamre]

From Isaiah 14:
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

And this about Satan, right? And Satan was an angel.

mjccb,

That seemingly matches "morning star" to "angel." But, it talks also of the Sons of God. Sons of God means individuals that have been begotten by the Father.

However, throughout the scriptures the term angel is used basically as a "messenger", and it is mostly used as a general term or a designation.

For example, "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night?
" Gen 19:1-5 (Emphasis added). In this case, these were physical persons who ate, washed and behave just like any human being, and yet they are called angels.

Jacob refers to the Lord as "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil..." Gen 48:16, clearly indicating this is a designation as in the most perfect way, He is the Messenger from the Most High God.

As you can see by the scriptures, angels are spirits, but they can be also resurrected beings, translated beings, or simply righteous men in the Lords errands, that minister for God. ("And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits... Are they not all ministering spirits... Heb 1:7,14). In some cases they even represent God and speak as if they were the Lord.

Satan, is an individual whose name indicates when he came into being, Lucifer, which means "Son of the Dawn." By the name we know he was one of the first spirits to be created, and apparently was in extremely high regard among the other spirits and by the Most High God. For that reason we can easily see he would be called an angel too. But he decided to rebel, and became a fallen angel along with the spirits that followed him. The term Satan means "Rebellious," or "one that rebels." Dawn and morning stars clearly indicate that these were individual spirits created at the beginning of some period before the earth was created.

So, since angel is not specifically a specially created creature apart from humans but a title or designation, it stand to reason that those "angels" (spirits) that fought in heaven, (that is, Michael and his angels fought and the dragon (Lucifer) and his angels fought but did not prevail) are all spirits created by the Most High God. So as we read that "...his (the dragon's) tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven..." Rev.12:4, then the other two thirds must be us the other spirits children of God lead by Michael. See this reference about us being spirit children of God: "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Heb 12:9 This shows clearly we were created before as spirits by God. Otherwise, the scriptures would not call Him Father of our spirits.

mamre

 

[mamre]

I realized I referenced the Isaiah 14, but I didn't answer the question in the post. No, I don't believe our spirits existed before we were created. Nowhere in the Bible is this stated.

God breathed life (spirit) into Adam. Gen 2:7 “The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.â€

Mormon doctrine mistakenly teaches this based on Jeremiah. Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

But is this pre-existence or foreknowledge?

Romans 4 speaks to His foreknowledge. Rom 4:16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations."[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

mjjcb,

Breathing life doesn't necessarily means that the spirit is created at that very moment. It can very well be a figurative way, or a real form of allowing, or ordering, or facilitating an already existing spirit to enter the body that was created. Furthermore, Adam was not born of woman in the same way the rest of us were. Therefore, breathing the life into Adam may be also a way specific for the case of Adam because it is certainly not practical for God to keep breathing life literally into every newborn baby.

Furthermore, the scriptures say that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is His First begotten.
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world..." Heb 1:6
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" Col. 1: 15

Since Jesus was the first begotten before the earth was and the scriptures say He is the first born, then it is clear that there was a second born, a third born and billions of other born before the earth ever was. Otherwise, there would not be any reason to call Him the first born, or first begotten.

As for Jeremiah, notice that God doesn't only say that He knew him. He says also that He set him apart to be a prophet. You can only set apart someone that already exists. Jeremiah's spirit already existed, so God set him apart to be a prophet, in the same fashion that He set apart His Son to be our Savior. In other words, He foreordained him to be a prophet. It seems that because God knew Jeremiah (as a father knows his children) and how obedient he was that He trusted him to be a prophet.

The Jews in the times of Jesus had a concept of pre-mortality, otherwise the disciples would not have asked: " Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:2,3 How could someone have sinned if that person didn't exist before?

mamre

 

[mamre]

morning stars are the angels. angels are often referred to as sons of God. we existed in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, but our souls did not come into existence until we were conceived.

Hi faithtransforms,

That we all existed as ideas is Plato's philosophy. When you say we were only ideas you are just stating Plato's philosophy of knowledge. We need to be careful with what we believe because Plato was not a prophet of God and was not even a Christian. However, Christian thinkers have introduced his philosophy into Christian doctrine. So, the question to ask is: Who do you follow, Plato, or the true word of God? When you say that we were all ideas in the mind of God your are clearly following Plato's philosophy of knowledge.

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[Ahuli]

morning stars are the angels. angels are often referred to as sons of God. we existed in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, but our souls did not come into existence until we were conceived.

Hi faithtransforms,

That we all existed as ideas is Plato's philosophy. When you say we were only ideas you are just stating Plato's philosophy of knowledge. We need to be careful with what we believe because Plato was not a prophet of God and was not even a Christian. However, Christian thinkers have introduced his philosophy into Christian doctrine. So, the question to ask is: Who do you follow, Plato, or the true word of God? When you say that we were all ideas in the mind of God your are clearly following Plato's philosophy of knowledge.

Have a great day,
mamre

I'm so glad you know that. We are warned about adding and taking away from scripture. Too many merrily proceed with doing it anyways. Plato, or any pagan, was/is not our source, and it then behooves us to diligently search the scriptures and become solid and grounded in the Word.

 

[Free]

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Heb 12:9 This shows clearly we were created before as spirits by God. Otherwise, the scriptures would not call Him Father of our spirits.

No, that verse does not at all show that we pre-existed as spirits. You're reading that meaning into the text. There is no biblical support for such a notion.

 

[mamre]

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Heb 12:9 This shows clearly we were created before as spirits by God. Otherwise, the scriptures would not call Him Father of our spirits.

No, that verse does not at all show that we pre-existed as spirits. You're reading that meaning into the text. There is no biblical support for such a notion.

Free,
Please, notice that you have taken only that verse to comment on. That scripture is part of a context that shows that we all existed before. Please see the other reasoning and the other scriptures I have cited. This is part of an explanation, but you chose to pick one part of it.

As I have mentioned before, Jesus Christ is the "first born" of all creatures. If Jesus is the first born of all creatures, or the first begotten of the Father, and He was created before the earth was created, then there must be a second born, a third born, and even billions born after Him before the earth. As you may know, Jesus was a spirit before the earth existed. If, as the scriptures indicate, a second born, and billions of other born, were created the same way, then there is no reason to believe we all were not created after the earth was.

So, as you can see the above scriptures (about Father of our spirits) is cited just to indicate that we have a Father of our spirits, who have begotten all spirits before the earth was created, and Jesus was the first of all of those.

mamre

 

[Free]

Free,
Please, notice that you have taken only that verse to comment on. That scripture is part of a context that shows that we all existed before. Please see the other reasoning and the other scriptures I have cited. This is part of an explanation, but you chose to pick one part of it.

Okay, I'll deal with the rest directly but I said what I did because the whole idea that we existed prior to birth is not biblical.

As I have mentioned before, Jesus Christ is the "first born" of all creatures. If Jesus is the first born of all creatures, or the first begotten of the Father, and He was created before the earth was created, then there must be a second born, a third born, and even billions born after Him before the earth. As you may know, Jesus was a spirit before the earth existed. If, as the scriptures indicate, a second born, and billions of other born, were created the same way, then there is no reason to believe we all were not created after the earth was.

Jesus, or rather, the Christ, was not created. Just because Jesus is referred to as the "first born" neither means he was created nor does it necessarily mean that there is even a second born, never mind a billionth born. I suggest you do a word study on the meanings of "first born" and how they apply to Jesus.

So, as you can see the above scriptures (about Father of our spirits) is cited just to indicate that we have a Father of our spirits, who have begotten all spirits before the earth was created, and Jesus was the first of all of those.

That God is referred to as the "Father of our spirits" in no way means that we were created prior to our being born.

 

[mamre]

Okay, I'll deal with the rest directly but I said what I did because the whole idea that we existed prior to birth is not biblical.

Jesus, or rather, the Christ, was not created. Just because Jesus is referred to as the "first born" neither means he was created nor does it necessarily mean that there is even a second born, never mind a billionth born. I suggest you do a word study on the meanings of "first born" and how they apply to Jesus.


Free,

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
Col. 1: 15, 23

Again, it seems you are choosing what to believe to fit the doctrine you grew up with. As you can see above, it is BIBLICAL (it is in the Bible) that Jesus Christ, the Creator of this earth, was the "firstborn of every creature." No matter how you spin this, the scripture says He is the fist born. (Born means He was created or somehow generated, or formed - a baby is formed in the womb and then is given birth.)

And not only that: Of every creature that exists, He is the first of all. See what Isaiah says about Jesus Christ, the Lord: "...I am he: before me there was no God formed..." Isa. 43: 10 By this scripture we see that He was the very first to be formed. And like Him there is no other and never will be. Who created Him? The Father, the Most High God, who is the Father of us all. Jesus is the first begotten of the Father.

"And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Heb. 1: 6 (And, if first born is not enough, the scriptures says He is the first begotten also.) (all emphasis added).

However notice that first, you say the principle is not biblical, then you say that first born is not really first born. I see a pattern here. And that pattern is that you believe in a certain doctrine and seem to need to adjust the scriptures to that doctrine. So it seems that when you find a term that contradicts that doctrine, you need another explanation for the term. Notice that, in contrast, I am merely citing scriptures.

We need to study the scriptures by the spirit, and understand it by the spirit with which it was written. I really don't care what any scholars say. But I care about what God tells me through the Holy Ghost and testify to my spirit about the truth. That way I don't need to rely on human intellect.

mamre

 

[Sinthesis]

Hmm...something smells mormon.

In this context 'firstborn' refers to status and not 'time rank among others'. This is how Jesus is both the only begotten as well as first begotten. As the first and only begotten of God the Father, Jesus receives the entire inheritance.

• Jhn 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Mike]

Jesus as the first born and the denial of hell in another thread seems to add up to Jehovah's Witnesses. Mamre, would you care to set the record straight. It might help. just sayin'

 

[Free]

Okay, I'll deal with the rest directly but I said what I did because the whole idea that we existed prior to birth is not biblical.

Jesus, or rather, the Christ, was not created. Just because Jesus is referred to as the "first born" neither means he was created nor does it necessarily mean that there is even a second born, never mind a billionth born. I suggest you do a word study on the meanings of "first born" and how they apply to Jesus.

Free,

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
Col. 1: 15, 23

Again, it seems you are choosing what to believe to fit the doctrine you grew up with. As you can see above, it is BIBLICAL (it is in the Bible) that Jesus Christ, the Creator of this earth, was the "firstborn of every creature." No matter how you spin this, the scripture says He is the fist born. (Born means He was created or somehow generated, or formed - a baby is formed in the womb and then is given birth.)

And not only that: Of every creature that exists, He is the first of all. See what Isaiah says about Jesus Christ, the Lord: "...I am he: before me there was no God formed..." Isa. 43: 10 By this scripture we see that He was the very first to be formed. And like Him there is no other and never will be. Who created Him? The Father, the Most High God, who is the Father of us all. Jesus is the first begotten of the Father.

"And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Heb. 1: 6 (And, if first born is not enough, the scriptures says He is the first begotten also.) (all emphasis added).

However notice that first, you say the principle is not biblical, then you say that first born is not really first born. I see a pattern here. And that pattern is that you believe in a certain doctrine and seem to need to adjust the scriptures to that doctrine. So it seems that when you find a term that contradicts that doctrine, you need another explanation for the term. Notice that, in contrast, I am merely citing scriptures.

We need to study the scriptures by the spirit, and understand it by the spirit with which it was written. I really don't care what any scholars say. But I care about what God tells me through the Holy Ghost and testify to my spirit about the truth. That way I don't need to rely on human intellect.

Of course you don't care what scholars say because most of them disagree with you. This seems to be such a common argument when people want to think they're right--they've learned it from the Holy Spirit while everyone else is wrong because they merely used human intellect. :gah

Before you go off thinking you're right and wrongly accuse me of adjusting the Scriptures to fit my doctrine, do a serious study on the meanings of "first born." Anyone can cite Scripture, that doesn't mean that they understand what is being said or that it even coheres with the rest of what Scripture says.

I'm not going to get into a debate on the deity of Christ, that's for a different thread. The concept of the spiritual pre-existence of mankind is not taught anywhere in Scripture. That is one of the errors of Mormonism.

 

[Mike]

Free, to add just one point to your post, I would say some people seem to do a backward search for the truth. They have their belief set and will turn over every rock on the internet until they find something that agrees with their premise. Then they can say they researched it, and have no choice but to conclude that the evidence points to their conclusion. Well, of course it would if you ignore everything until you find someone's opinion that agrees with yours. That's not an honest study of anything, most of all His Word.