Did we live as spirits before the earth was created?

[n2thelight]

I have read in Job that the morning stars and the sons of God shouted for joy when the earth was to be created. And yet Protestantism, or Christianity in general don't accept it as true. Why is that? See below:
Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Since we know that stars don't sing, then stands to reason that the scriptures is referring about people.

Yes we did....The only reason we are now in flesh is because of satan's rebellion....We were never meant to be in flesh bodies....

Here's a great study on the topic

http://biblestudysite.com/begin.htm

 

[mamre]

Free, to add just one point to your post, I would say some people seem to do a backward search for the truth. They have their belief set and will turn over every rock on the internet until they find something that agrees with their premise. Then they can say they researched it, and have no choice but to conclude that the evidence points to their conclusion. Well, of course it would if you ignore everything until you find someone's opinion that agrees with yours. That's not an honest study of anything, most of all His Word.

Free,

I am not sure exactly what mjjc is implying by what he has written above. But, all I did is to show a comprehensive number of scriptures that refer to the subject. Christ is the first born creature according to Col, and He is the first begotten according to Heb. I am not trying to fit anything to a doctrine. These are in the Bible.

However, if someone says that the word first born doesn't apply to Christ then we need to find out why. And saying that something we read in the Bible is not what we read then, that person needs to have the authority from God to say that. If that person is not authorized by God to interpret that principle, than the reason will reveal his/her intentions. And, ultimately, if the term needs to be read differently, it will reveal that it is because it needs to agree to some doctrine.

As for spirits living before the creation of the earth. Just read the story of the born blind man. The disciples were wondering if the man, who was born blind, had sinned before he came to earth. Hence they asked the Lord about it. That indicates clearly that they believed that humans lived before they come to earth. Otherwise, how the man could have sinned if that was the case?.

Notice that these are scriptures taken for the bible, and I am looking at the scriptures in a comprehensive way. I am not choosing one scripture to fit this or that belief. I have shown several scriptures that demonstrate the principle, not just one. Notice that they agree and complement each other. Have you ever read and pondered about these scriptures against your own beliefs lately? If we are truth seeker we should not be afraid of pondering the scriptures, prayerfully through the Holy Ghost. Now, if one take one scripture that fits his/her belief and ignore the others than he/she doesn't have the truth. What we need to do is to trace our belief and see what they really come from. Does it come from the scriptures ultimately, or from some scholar, or minister? That is you test. I only use scriptures to demonstrate the principle, never I cited any scholar.

If you wanna know the true, you go straight to the Father and if you do with real intention, He will reveal it to you personally. I have done that, and I am confident on the scriptures, I don't need any scholars, or ministers.

mamre

 

[mamre]

Yes we did....The only reason we are now in flesh is because of satan's rebellion....We were never meant to be in flesh bodies....

Here's a great study on the topic

http://biblestudysite.com/begin.htm

Hi onelove,

And, where in the scriptures you read that we were meant to be only spirits? Lets check what the scriptures say though:
1. Genesis says that man was created in the image and likeness of God. Therefore, if men are bone and flesh, God, by necessity has a body of bones and flesh (although glorified).
2. Jesus, said He was the express image of the Father when he was upon the earth. Jesus was bone and flesh, therefore, by necessity the Father has a body of bone and flesh (although glorified).
3. Jesus, was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones and demonstrated that to the disciples by saying that a "spirit doesn't eat or drink."
4. Jesus says that we need to be perfect like the Father which is in Heaven (who, as seeing above, has a glorified body of flesh and bones).
4. Paul says that we need to strive to be perfect like unto the fullness of the stature of Christ, a perfect man. The perfect man, Jesus Christ, is a resurrected being with a body of flesh and bones (glorified).

According to the scriptures , as demonstrated above, we ARE intended to have a body of bone and flesh just like Jesus and the Father.

However, if you read Plato a little bit, you will see that his philosophy is that the perfect world is a non-material world. We need to be careful which doctrine we follow, because saying that we were not intended to have bodies is totally in line with Plato and neo-platonic philosophies. Those philosophers were not Christians and their ideas are not found in the scriptures as you can see above.

mamre

 

[Sinthesis]

Free, to add just one point to your post, I would say some people seem to do a backward search for the truth. They have their belief set and will turn over every rock on the internet until they find something that agrees with their premise. Then they can say they researched it, and have no choice but to conclude that the evidence points to their conclusion. Well, of course it would if you ignore everything until you find someone's opinion that agrees with yours. That's not an honest study of anything, most of all His Word.

Free,

I am not sure exactly what mjjc is implying by what he has written above. But, all I did is to show a comprehensive number of scriptures that refer to the subject. Christ is the first born creature according to Col, and He is the first begotten according to Heb. I am not trying to fit anything to a doctrine. These are in the Bible.

Jesus is the 'only begotten' according to John. Your doctrine contradicts scripture.

However, if someone says that the word first born doesn't apply to Christ then we need to find out why. And saying that something we read in the Bible is not what we read then, that person needs to have the authority from God to say that. If that person is not authorized by God to interpret that principle, than the reason will reveal his/her intentions. And, ultimately, if the term needs to be read differently, it will reveal that it is because it needs to agree to some doctrine.

Straw man. Nobody is saying 'first born' does not apply to Christ. However, your definition of 'first born' is incorrect and leads you to heresy.

As for spirits living before the creation of the earth. Just read the story of the born blind man. The disciples were wondering if the man, who was born blind, had sinned before he came to earth. Hence they asked the Lord about it. That indicates clearly that they believed that humans lived before they come to earth. Otherwise, how the man could have sinned if that was the case?.

Learn from Christ. Jesus was constantly correcting His disciples errant views.

• Jhn 9:2 - And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
  Jhn 9:3 - Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Notice that these are scriptures taken for the bible, and I am looking at the scriptures in a comprehensive way. I am not choosing one scripture to fit this or that belief. I have shown several scriptures that demonstrate the principle, not just one. Notice that they agree and complement each other. Have you ever read and pondered about these scriptures against your own beliefs lately? If we are truth seeker we should not be afraid of pondering the scriptures, prayerfully through the Holy Ghost. Now, if one take one scripture that fits his/her belief and ignore the others than he/she doesn't have the truth. What we need to do is to trace our belief and see what they really come from. Does it come from the scriptures ultimately, or from some scholar, or minister? That is you test. I only use scriptures to demonstrate the principle, never I cited any scholar.

If you wanna know the true, you go straight to the Father and if you do with real intention, He will reveal it to you personally. I have done that, and I am confident on the scriptures, I don't need any scholars, or ministers.

mamre

Clearly :drool

 

[elijah23]

I don’t think we lived as spirits before the earth was created. For one thing, I can’t remember it happening to me.

 

[n2thelight]

Yes we did....The only reason we are now in flesh is because of satan's rebellion....We were never meant to be in flesh bodies....

Here's a great study on the topic

http://biblestudysite.com/begin.htm

Hi onelove,

And, where in the scriptures you read that we were meant to be only spirits? Lets check what the scriptures say though:
1. Genesis says that man was created in the image and likeness of God. Therefore, if men are bone and flesh, God, by necessity has a body of bones and flesh (although glorified).
2. Jesus, said He was the express image of the Father when he was upon the earth. Jesus was bone and flesh, therefore, by necessity the Father has a body of bone and flesh (although glorified).
3. Jesus, was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones and demonstrated that to the disciples by saying that a "spirit doesn't eat or drink."
4. Jesus says that we need to be perfect like the Father which is in Heaven (who, as seeing above, has a glorified body of flesh and bones).
4. Paul says that we need to strive to be perfect like unto the fullness of the stature of Christ, a perfect man. The perfect man, Jesus Christ, is a resurrected being with a body of flesh and bones (glorified).

According to the scriptures , as demonstrated above, we ARE intended to have a body of bone and flesh just like Jesus and the Father.

However, if you read Plato a little bit, you will see that his philosophy is that the perfect world is a non-material world. We need to be careful which doctrine we follow, because saying that we were not intended to have bodies is totally in line with Plato and neo-platonic philosophies. Those philosophers were not Christians and their ideas are not found in the scriptures as you can see above.

mamre

When we die the part of us that is spirit shall return,the flesh shall return to dust as it was,never to be used or needed,ever again...

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

Christ was not flesh,in the beginning...He was made that way just like we were...In other words He did not allow us to go through anything that He wouldn't...

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God."

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven

I Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Now let's take a look at Genesis.....

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin".

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. We will look into these Scripture passages and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.

If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what Esau did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age that so angered God; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau, when his soul entered into this earth age. See also Romans 9:13.

This verse, then, does verify the fact that our earth is older than 6,000 years old. To be more exact, it's probably many millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place we can live on in the flesh and survive. We do not worship God's creation; we are to worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on the earth from the first earth age.

In Isaiah 45:18; "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."

This is God speaking as Isaiah is writing it down, and He is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void". God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. The "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan of verse one, but came after the fall of Satan when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.

We find more documentation concerning the first earth age in II Peter 3. In fact we can read of all three earth ages, as Peter becomes a witness to the fact.

II Peter 3:5; "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

The earth came about by "the word of God", God's speech. Some ministers preach that this was Noah's flood, well let's see.

II Peter 3:6; "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

Perished means total destruction. "The world [age] that then was" ended in total ruin through another flood that was prior to Noah's day. There were no survivors of that flood; no animals, no man, no insects, nor vegetation survived in any form. Everything perished! We know in Noah's flood that two of all life forms were saved.

When you drive out on the highway today, and look at the road cutaways, you can see the layers that the ages and time have formed over the eons of years. You say this earth is 6000 years? Even a child should know better than that.

II Peter 3:7; "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are dept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is the second heaven and earth age which we are living in now. This earth age will not be destroyed until God's time of judgment on the ungodly men of this earth age comes to a close. that time of perdition [destruction] is after the millennium, and after the judgment. Then will come the consuming fire. Hebrews 12:19 tells us that our God is that consuming fire.

II Peter 3:8; "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

One week is 7000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly, which the common name for the next thousand years is "the Millennium age". The Millennium age is the thousand years after Jesus Christ returns to earth at the seventh trumpet to establish his kingdom here on earth. All souls at that time will not be in the flesh bodies, but in another dimension. They will exist in their incorruptible bodies, spoken of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

 

[mamre]

When we die the part of us that is spirit shall return,the flesh shall return to dust as it was,never to be used or needed,ever again...

Flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven

Onelove,

You are ABSOLUTELY right in both accounts.

God Himself said "...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return " Gen 1:19

If God would appear in His glory to any mortal human being, the flesh and blood of that human being would be consumed and perish in the presence of God. Therefore as mortals we can't live in Heaven. But we can't live in Heaven either if we don't repent of our sins.

THAT IS WHY Jesus Christ is the "last Adam" as Paul says "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." 1 Cor. 15: 45

Both Adams gave their lives and give us life. By giving up his immortal life in the garden, the "first" Adam made us all living souls (albeit mortals, as we are his descendants). By giving up His life in the flesh and taking it back, the last Adam gave us the RESURRECTION of the body (because He is a quickening spirit). Adam is the First to go to the grave and Jesus Christ is the First to come up from the grave.

Because of the last Adam everyone is going to come back up physically, with a body, from the grave, good and bad.

Here is how it works, please bear with me as this may be a little longer, read all please:

We were all spirits begotten by our Father in Heaven (I think you agree with this part), the Most High God. We saw our Father, and we desired to be like Him. (Like any earthly child wants to be like his parents.) We wanted to be perfect like He is. As Father in Heaven have a physical BODY that is glorified and perfect (not mortal flesh and blood), we wanted to be like Him, but we were only spirits, how could we become like He is. (Has not Christ commanded that we must be "perfect like our Father which is in heaven").

Our loving Father in Heaven showed us a plan for us to obtain a body and become perfect like He is. That plan required the creation of an earth, a physical universe. That is why "...the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38: 7. They knew that now they would have a chance to become like the Father.

So, all of us would be born upon this earth as mere mortals (but being living souls) and would have the freedom to choose to become like God or reject it on our own volition, without anybody pressing us to be good or bad. We are now in that condition, we have that freedom to choose to be "perfect like the Father" or not. It is up to us.

Among all the spirits begotten by our Father there was one that had being perfectly obedient and had become like the Father (the first born of all creatures), except He didn't have a body yet. He was so good and obedient that the Father said to Him: "...Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." Acts 13: 33. He became, then a God, and under the Father's (the word was God and the word was with God) direction He create the earth and everything there is for us to have that chance. The dialog in Genesis: "...God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..." Gen. 1:26 indicates there were two personages speaking. One was God the Father and the other His Son Jesus Christ.

That is the plan. However, there was another prominent spirit called the Son of Dawn. This spirit presented another plan. He wanted all the other spirits to obey without any choice; and for that he wanted God's Power and throne. Remember, in Isaiah, he says: "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:" Isa. 14: 13 That is Lucifer. He wanted to take away our freedom to choose.

And that is why there was "war in Heaven." On third of the spirits agreed with Lucifer and followed him blindly, they rebelled against God and His plan. Those spirits were cast down to earth, and they are miserable because they see that they will never be able to have a physical body, and for that reason you see that many try to posses people's bodies when they can.

Of course truth prevailed then, and the plan of our Father was put into place. For the plan to work we needed to become mortals to be able to prove ourselves if we really would obey God. As Adam became mortal, we, his descendants are born mortals in a body that is corruptible, and die. Therefore, on our own we would never be able to become physically immortal (be living souls again). And, if we continue to be only spirits we would be subjects to Satan, as he is only a spirit.

Therefore, God said, I will send One (My Son) to atone for your sins and to bring resurrection to you ("One that was prepared before the foundation of this world"). So, Jesus came, and he was born just like any of us, paid the price of justice because He being a God and being in a mortal body could give His life and take it again, which none of us can do. A perfect plan, Jesus fulfill the justice so all those that want to be perfect like the Father, can now repent and apply His atonement being clean of the debt with justice. But, Jesus also gave us the resurrection, which is to make this blood and flesh body into an immortal physical body like His. Christ is the last Adam. The first Adam, introduced us into mortality, the last Adam introduces us into immortality with the POSSIBILITY of eternal life.

All will become immortal, but not all will be in Heaven with God. Those that repent and are obedient will come up in the First resurrection for Glory and to be like God. The others that don't care, will be in the Second resurrection to pay for their debt that justice requires, because the have rejected the Mercy of God, the atonement of Christ.

That is the plan. And it is true, I know it as I have studied, prayed, and asked the Most High for a witness of these truths. I don't just believe in it. They are not my opinion. God have given me a testimony of this. And you can have one two if you ask Him in humility and with real intent, and faith. You don't need to rely on my word, you can ask God about this.

mamre

 

[Sinthesis]

On Mormonism--

1Jo 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Free]

Yes we did....The only reason we are now in flesh is because of satan's rebellion....We were never meant to be in flesh bodies....

Here's a great study on the topic

http://biblestudysite.com/begin.htm

Gap Theory likely only came about because some Bible believers were unable to explain science's dating for the age of the earth. But it is error.

II Peter 3:8; "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

One week is 7000 years, and we are coming to the Sabbath of that week very shortly,

It is error to conclude that Peter was saying that one week is a thousand years.

Yes we did....The only reason we are now in flesh is because of satan's rebellion....We were never meant to be in flesh bodies....

Here's a great study on the topic

http://biblestudysite.com/begin.htm

And, where in the scriptures you read that we were meant to be only spirits? Lets check what the scriptures say though:
1. Genesis says that man was created in the image and likeness of God. Therefore, if men are bone and flesh, God, by necessity has a body of bones and flesh (although glorified).
2. Jesus, said He was the express image of the Father when he was upon the earth. Jesus was bone and flesh, therefore, by necessity the Father has a body of bone and flesh (although glorified).
3. Jesus, was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones and demonstrated that to the disciples by saying that a "spirit doesn't eat or drink."
4. Jesus says that we need to be perfect like the Father which is in Heaven (who, as seeing above, has a glorified body of flesh and bones).
4. Paul says that we need to strive to be perfect like unto the fullness of the stature of Christ, a perfect man. The perfect man, Jesus Christ, is a resurrected being with a body of flesh and bones (glorified).

According to the scriptures , as demonstrated above, we ARE intended to have a body of bone and flesh just like Jesus and the Father.

However, if you read Plato a little bit, you will see that his philosophy is that the perfect world is a non-material world. We need to be careful which doctrine we follow, because saying that we were not intended to have bodies is totally in line with Plato and neo-platonic philosophies. Those philosophers were not Christians and their ideas are not found in the scriptures as you can see above.

mamre

More Mormon error. Not to mention the errors in logic. God the Father is a spirit and does not have a body of flesh and bone:

John 4:24, God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (ESV)

Luke 24:39, See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." (ESV)

 

[jasoncran]

Free, to add just one point to your post, I would say some people seem to do a backward search for the truth. They have their belief set and will turn over every rock on the internet until they find something that agrees with their premise. Then they can say they researched it, and have no choice but to conclude that the evidence points to their conclusion. Well, of course it would if you ignore everything until you find someone's opinion that agrees with yours. That's not an honest study of anything, most of all His Word.

dont talk about modern science, lol wrong section.

 

[Mike]

Free, to add just one point to your post, I would say some people seem to do a backward search for the truth. They have their belief set and will turn over every rock on the internet until they find something that agrees with their premise. Then they can say they researched it, and have no choice but to conclude that the evidence points to their conclusion. Well, of course it would if you ignore everything until you find someone's opinion that agrees with yours. That's not an honest study of anything, most of all His Word.

Free,I am not sure exactly what mjjc is implying by what he has written above.

mamre, I realize how this looks, as I was following up with Free's response to you, however this was not meant to refer to you. It was a general comment for those (yes, including you) who draw out of scripture that Jesus is not eternal. If someone is convicted in their belief, do they really spend as much time reading opposing views to learn from them as they do those that they agree with? I'm talking about internet sights.

Jesus as the first born and the denial of hell in another thread seems to add up to Jehovah's Witnesses. Mamre, would you care to set the record straight. It might help. just sayin'

You must have overlooked this the first time around. If you don't want to confirm this, I understand. The reason I asked is that we first "crossed swords" over the issue of eternal separation from God for unbelievers. I was going on the assumption you were a Christian. I realize you may believe that JW's fall into that umbrella, maybe you don't. Assuming you are a JW, nothing will change, except you will be asked to stay clear of the "Christians Only Advice" forum. It seems that there is a lot of dialog here on the boards with other faiths and people who are open with them. I've shared with Mormons, JW's, atheists, etc. with no hostility.

 

[mamre]

Jesus as the first born and the denial of hell in another thread seems to add up to Jehovah's Witnesses. Mamre, would you care to set the record straight. It might help. just sayin'

mjjc,

I am not offended, nor have any hostility towards anyone. How could I if I am giving you my testimony of the truth. I am not combating or arguing, I am expounding the scriptures in this forum. All that I have written is in the scriptures. They are not opinion or interpretation of any scholar or mine.

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the Eternal I Am. He is my Heavenly Friend that volunteered to suffer to pay for my debts. I love Him deeply in my imperfect way. That assertion alone makes me a Christian. Jesus is our eternal God that Created this earth; there is no denial of that. In the scriptures, He says He had glory with the Father before this earth was created. He is the Father of this entire creation. Those that follow Him are given "power to become the Sons of God" (See John). He has the power to set us free from the corruption of mortality through His own resurrection. He is the "quickening spirit" (See Cor.) that brings us from the grave.

Now, where you seem to be hanging up is what it means to be immortal and what it means to be eternal. Those are NOT synonyms. Immortal is to be resurrected from the grave with a physical body, exactly like Jesus did. Being immortal doesn't mean you automatically is eternal, because, there are two resurrections: the First resurrection of the just, and the second resurrection of the damned (See Cor.). If you keep your covenants with the Lamb, you will be in the morning of the first resurrection. That is, you will be immortal and have the possibility to receive eternal life. However, if you didn't keep your covenants with God, you will raise in the second resurrection (See Rev.) to receive your punishment, which is infinite. Please notice that it would be not a punishment if you cease to exist; it would not be fair at all to just eliminate the wicked; if that would be so then they would not have paid their debt with justice. So they need to be immortal, they need to be alive and conscious to continually burn in the "lake of fire and brimstone." That is the second death, as be away from God is death, as you don't have life (eternal) (See Rev.)

Immortal life is to have a body incorruptible that doesn't die anymore. No matter who you are (bad or good), Christ gave that to you as a gift, because Adam brought that and it is not your or my fault that we die. On the other hand eternal life depends on you "overcoming" the world like Jesus did. If you gave in to the world, you will be punished and not be with God.

Having eternal life is to be with God, in other words, to have the same type of life God and Jesus have. That means we inherit all that the Father has, we become a co-heir with our Lord Jesus Christ. Didn't Jesus said that "Life eternal is this, that we know God the Eternal Father and His Son, whom He has sent?" How can you know the Father if you don't live with Him?

All of the above is in the Bible. Now, as true disciple of Christ, answer honestly to everyone to see:

Is any of the above Unchristian?

I am only expounding you the Bible and you seem to be asking me to deny my testimony of the truth.
The Bible says that Jesus is the first born of all creatures and that He is the first begotten of the Father. (And that happened way before the earth was created.) He was prepared before the foundation of the world, and He is eternal because He is the express image of an eternal being (the Father). What is wrong with that? Isaiah says that Jehovah, the same Jesus that came to earth, was formed first, and there was no God formed before Him and never will be another.

All of the above is not JW doctrine. In fact some of it are expressly rejected by the JW, specifically Jehovah being the same Jesus.

Those principles above are Gospel principles.

Now if you want to ban me from the forum for bearing you my testimony of the truth, which by the way is in the Bible, be it noted.

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[mamre]

Jesus as the first born and the denial of hell in another thread seems to add up to Jehovah's Witnesses. Mamre, would you care to set the record straight. It might help. just sayin'

I guess I didn't address the "hell part" of you comment.

If you go back to the posts about that subject you'll see that, at one point you dismissed the discussion for some reason. But I have showed scriptures and reasoning that doesn't deny the existence of hell. On the contrary, they confirm its existence very clearly. Some gave it the name of Hades. But It exists, the scriptures indicate that Jesus have been there right after His death and before His resurrection when he went to preach to spirits that are there in prison.
So Hell exists, but is a temporary or intermediary place where the wicked go to await for the resurrection of the body.
The same way paradise is not a final place as when Jesus saw Mary He said He had not ascended to the Father. But He had been in Paradise as said to the thief on the cross that he would be with Him im Paradise that very day. That clearly indicates that Paradise is a similar intermediary place, but opposite to hell, where the penitent, repentant and good people rest to wait for the resurrection.

All those are bible doctrine.

So please set the record straight, I NEVER denied the existence of hell. But, according to the scriptures hell (or Hades) as we see in the scriptures is an awful state of expectation for those that didn't live a righteous life (see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man). This is different from the final "lake of fire and brimstone" prepared for after the second resurrection.

Please set the record straight,

Thanks,
mamre

 

[Mike]

mamre, first of all, thank you for your response. I regret that I took us off course. I was just trying to understand if you were a JW, because my (clearly misunderstood) understanding of your beliefs :nod would have made sense. I backed out of our conversation about Hell, because:

First, I thought you were not a biblical Christian, so I wanted to engage.
Then, you presented that you were a Christian, with a stark difference of an issue. I thought, rather than get in an emotional debate with a fellow believer, I would back out. Sometimes, I don't like to put our disputes out there for non-believers to point at and say "Look at them. They can't agree on anything!" Sorta like airing my family's dirty laundry. I had just been engaged in a similar discussion, when an atheist popped in from no where and commented something like, "I love seeing Christians argue about their god."
I thought you denied the existence of hell and were saying we are not eternally separated from God in our punishment. So when you said that Jesus was created, I thought it would help to understand better the perspective that you were coming from.
I believe Jesus has always been. We disagree there, but I'm sorry that misrepresented you.

Either way, far be if from me to ban anyone from anywhere. Who am I? I would never even suggest that you, or anyone who wasn't combative, should be dealt with.

Thank you for taking my post in the spirit that you did. Assuming we continue down the road on these boards, I'm sure we'll get to know each other much better.

Be blessed,
Mike

 

[mamre]

I believe Jesus has always been. We disagree there, but I'm sorry that misrepresented you.

Hi mjjcb,

Thank you for your response.
I don't think we disagree that Jesus has always been. I don't just believe that He is eternal, I know He is the Eternal Creator of this and many other worlds. I know that He had glory with the Father before this earth ever was.
However, we cannot dismiss or misinterpret what the scriptures say about Him:

Col. 1: 15, 18
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Heb. 1: 6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Isa. 43: 10
...that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Heb. 1: 5
5 ...Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

The Father Himself has said He has begotten Him. And, He Himself says He was formed.
Jesus the Son of God has always existed, but if you read the scriptures carefully He has been through stages.
1. The first thing we know from the scriptures is that He was the first begotten (Heb. 1: 6) and first born (Col. 1: 15, 18) of all the spirit children of the Father of Spirits (Heb.12:9).
2. Than, Hebrews mentions God saying "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee..." In other words, He became a Son, which before that He was not, otherwise God wouldn't say "I have begotten thee."
3. Becoming a Son made Him the heir of all the Father has, eternities before this earth ever existed. Which means He became just like the Father, God, with the power to create worlds and command the elements just like His Father.
4.Then He came to earth, became flesh, to take a physical body, to atone for our sins, and to show us how we can too become like the Father.
5.Then He resurrected and became a physical, resurrected God, and fulfilled all that the Father had commanded Him.
6.He then, ascended as a physically resurrected being to sit at the right hand of the Father. Thus, He fully inherited all that the Father has. In other words, to assume the "fullness of His stature" as mentioned by Paul as an example for us.

But, before all that took place He already existed forever, there is no beginning for His being. He exited in another form, which the Bible doesn't seem to mention.

I don't disagree at all that He has always existed.

Just as a side note:
We should not mix "only begotten" with "first begotten."
"Only begotten" refers to Him been begotten by the Father through Mary. He is the Only begotten because there is not other that was begotten like Him, by the Most High God, upon this earth.
"First begotten" refers to the scripture I cited above, of all the spirits begotten by the Most High before this world ever existed, He is the very first.

But, it stands to reason that if the scriptures say that God told Him that "This days I have begotten Thee," it means He existed before being begotten, as The Father was addressing Him. So, He always existed.

mamre

 

[Mike]

I believe Jesus has always been. We disagree there, but I'm sorry that misrepresented you.

Hi mjjcb,

Thank you for your response.
I don't think we disagree that Jesus has always been. I don't just believe that He is eternal, I know He is the Eternal Creator of this and many other worlds. I know that He had glory with the Father before this earth ever was.
However, we cannot dismiss or misinterpret what the scriptures say about Him:

Col. 1: 15, 18
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

This is a "God-thing". I was just studying Colossians! Mamre, why did you stop this verse here? To continue...

"16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Not "this and many other worlds". ALL things were created. He was before ALL things. Things on earth and in heaven. Why did you stop the scripture before it finished?

While I'm in the Word, I like to stay on something for a while; not rush through many verses. I hope you don't mind if I stop here. I think it's worth the time. Besides, I believe we've sufficiently derailed the topic of this thread. Maybe you could put it out there on it's own.

Thanks for sharing,
Mike

 

[mamre]

Col. 1: 15, 18
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Mike,

You are absolutely right, I mentioned only worlds (just in passing), but He is the Creator of all we know and don't know. There is however a couple of things to understand in the combined scriptures you mention.

Here is why this is not derailing from the topic of living as spirits before this earth was created:

Verse 15 ends with a ":" (colon), which means Paul first define Who He is, The first born of every creature. If He is the first born of all creatures, and the following verses say He created everything, then apparently these verses contradict themselves.

However, since those scriptures are not contradicting themselves, then these verses are telling us that there are two aspects of creation: A spirit creation and a physical creation.

1. The "invisible God" of whom Jesus is the image, created all things in spirit. Paul, in Hebrews, mentions He (the Most High) is the Father of spirits, of which spirit creation, Jesus is the first born.

2. Because Jesus Christ was the first born and was perfectly obedient, the "invisible God," the Most High God, in verse 19 says "was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him." Part of the fullness of the invisible God is all that He created in spirit before this earth was, which He put in Jesus hands.

3. In verse 16 "all things [that] were created by him and for him," are the physical creation and the organization done by Jesus Christ that are to help mankind to come to the Father.

This is important to understand because then people don't need to try to find different meanings for the term "first born" outside the scriptures. He is the first born of all spirit creation of the "invisible God," of whom He is the image. And having received all the power from the Father, He created all that helps us with our salvation.

Therefore, if as established above, Christ is the first born of all spiritually created creatures, then it indicates we lived as spirits before the earth was created. As you can see this is not off the topic at all.

Summarizing:
God the Father created all things in spirit. Jesus is His First born of that spirit creation.
God the Son created all physical things and organized all things that pertain to our salvation.
He is the beginning of all those things that pertain to our salvation, and He is also the last. As the scriptures say, The Alpha and the Omega.

Have a great day,
Charles

 

[Mike]

Summarizing:
God the Father created all things in spirit. Jesus is His First born of that spirit creation.
God the Son created all physical things and organized all things that pertain to our salvation.
He is the beginning of all those things that pertain to our salvation, and He is also the last. As the scriptures say, The Alpha and the Omega.

You're still stumbling over the term, "firstborn". I believe this is referring to His preeminence. Here's why...

Though Jesus was not born until thousands of years after the world was created, he is called God's firstborn. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence" (Colossians 1:15-18). The phrase "firstborn" is just one of several emphasizing Jesus' position. He is above everything and in all things he has preeminence. The emphasis is on his position and not the order of his birth.

In regards to his existence, Jesus is stated to be God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made" (John 1:1-3). As in the verse quoted from Colossians, this passage also states that everything made was made through Jesus.

The implication is that Jesus could not have been created or made, else that statement would be false. Jesus himself stated that he was eternal (no beginning and no end) when he stated, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). In Revelation Jesus states, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). It is the same phrase attributed to God, the Father, in Revelation 4:8 and 21:6.

If you are to point out that He said "before Abraham", Abraham represents the origin of the nation of Israel. It was to speak to people who held that they were the true chosen people, and it was put in context. For Jesus to put himself before Abraham, would be to put Himself at the beginning from the perspective of His audience.

 

[mamre]

I believe this is referring to His preeminence. Here's why...

The phrase "firstborn" is just one of several emphasizing Jesus' position. He is above everything and in all things he has preeminence. The emphasis is on his position and not the order of his birth.

As in the verse quoted from Colossians, this passage also states that everything made was made through Jesus.

The implication is that Jesus could not have been created or made, else that statement would be false. Jesus himself stated that he was eternal (no beginning and no end) when he stated, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). In Revelation Jesus states, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8). It is the same phrase attributed to God, the Father, in Revelation 4:8 and 21:6.

If you are to point out that He said "before Abraham", Abraham represents the origin of the nation of Israel. It was to speak to people who held that they were the true chosen people, and it was put in context. For Jesus to put himself before Abraham, would be to put Himself at the beginning from the perspective of His audience.

Mike,
Your belief is absolutely right, He is preeminent but, according to the scriptures, that is not all, and doesn't change what the scriptures are saying. You are also correct that He create everything and was before Abraham and before this earth. But He was Himself created by the "invisible God" before all those creations He did Himself.


If you replace the term "first born" with "preeminent" in Col 1:15, it renders: "the preeminent of every creature," it still makes Him a created being, which, in my opinion, diminishes Him because it doesn't give Him the true status of been the first to be born (the first born right you see throughout the scriptures refers to that). It doesn't resolve the contradiction with the verses that follow where He is also a creator. In other words: a creator of all things that is a preeminent of every creature, this is utterly confusing, Mike.

His preeminence is due to His obedience. He became preeminent because after being the first born He always did the will of the Father. There is a process of growth way before the earth was, while He was still a spirit that culminated with God giving Him preeminence. That is why at one point the Father says "thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee." That was the culmination of Jesus perfect obedience eons before this earth was ever created. He became the prime example of what God wanted for all the other spirit children that God created to be. That is why the Father loved Him so much and made him an eternal God.

As you can see I am not stumbling Mike. I am just sticking with the scriptures. Using the term preeminent doesn't change anything. Because He is the first born and because of His obedience He became preeminent.

In Isaiah, God says He was formed, and no other God was formed before or after Him. That means the Most High never made anyone else like Him.

Also, with all due respect, you don't seem to see any difference between what is a "physical" thing and what is a "spirit" thing. Either that, or you are just ignoring those concepts. Because of His preeminence, Jesus was given the privilege of preparing everything for our salvation, including organizing everything in heaven and creating this universe, and making the sacrifice. That would also explain why Lucifer was jealous and rebelled, he wanted to be that one.

What is Father of Spirits? It is a father that has begotten spirits. Jesus was the first of those spirits.

With all due respect, here are the terms you may confuse.

According to the scriptures:
First born of every creature: (before the earth existed)
Refers to the very fist spirit the "invisible God" ever created.

First begotten:
Refers to the first son God, the Most High, has ever begotten in spirit.

Only begotten in the flesh:
Refers to the only son that God, the Most High, has ever begotten in this physical world (flesh).

First born of the dead:
Refers to the first of all the children of God that have ever been resurrected with a physical body from the grave.

As you can see we cannot just gloss over and ignore the true meaning of these terms and resolve on our own that it "just" refers to preeminence.


That is that simple,
Charleds

 

[Mike]

mamre, I shouldn't have used the word "stumble". It sounds like I'm implying that you are inept. We have different meanings of the word "firstborn" as it applies to Jesus. I'll get back to you when I have more time, but I wanted to respond to this. No offense was intended.