Osgiliath said:
Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Have you looked up the other uses of the word "shortly" in the NT? How about "near?" These terms occur numerous times and never do they mean what you are saying they mean in the Book of Revelation! They are used in exactly the same way you and I use those terms in our everyday lives!
Hi Matt,
Come on, enough with that lame argument already. Haggai 2:6 was quoted by Paul in Hebrews 12:26 580 years after Haggai had told the Jews that the ONCE
“shaking of all nations†would occur "
in a little while". Since no such “shaking†occurred within a short span of human years, it is evident that the imminency of the event must be referring to God’s standard of time, and not ours. By your own definition of 2 Peter 3:8 (which I agree with by the way), our human concept of time means nothing to God, and illustrates that God transcends “time†as we understand it. You shot yourself in the foot by highlighting this very fact. If
"one day with God can be as a thousand years with man, and a thousand years as one day", wouldn’t it be wise to
“be not ignorant of this one thing†and realize that statements concerning
“timeâ€Â; such as
“shortly†and
“near†should also be applied to this divine concept of time?
Anyway, there are expressions denoting imminency throughout the Bible, and do not in any case necessitate immediacy of fulfillment. All of these statements and their applied usage from the Old Testament match up with those in the New Testament
(Hebrew-Greek), and must be taken as uniform throughout the Bible:
Haggai 2:6 “For thus saith the Lord of Hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, and the Desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of Hosts.â€Â
Joel 1:15 “Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.â€Â
Joel 2:1 “Blow ye a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand.â€Â
Jeremiah 51:33 “For thus saith the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like threshing-floor, and it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come.â€Â
Isaiah 10:25 “For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and my anger in their destruction.â€Â
Isaiah 13:6 “Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.â€Â
Isaiah 56:1 “Thus saith the Lord, keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.â€Â
Ezekiel 30:3 “For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.â€Â
Ezekiel 36:8 “But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.â€Â
Zephaniah 1:14 “The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty men shall cry there bitterly.â€Â
You are definitely persistent Matt; but you do not persuade.
PS -
If it makes you feel any better, I don't agree with kingdavid either :D
Greetings, Osgiliath: No disrespect, my friend, but did you look up the other uses of "shortly" and "near" in the NT before you went to the standard futurist OT verses which, by the way, do NOT say what you say they are saying? Are you telling me that 2 Peter 3:8 and those OT misapplied verses negate EVERY use of the other numerous uses of those terms in the NT? Shortly never means shortly; near never means near? Or do they not really mean what they clearly depict only in eschatological passages? Your entire system of end things crumbles IF you allow these words to say what they clearly say. Rather than accept what they plainly say, futurists hunt throughout the entire Bible to find anything that will make those bothersome time statements go away!
And, again, since you didn't give the setting of the passages you threw out at me, I now have to go to all of them and study them again in their contexts. It is unfair and wrong to grab verses out of context and present them in your arguments IF you have not bothered to explain what they mean historically and contextually! But let's look at them.
One of the big problems with futurists is their misunderstanding of "the day of the Lord." There is NOT one day of the Lord, Osgiliath. Whenever the Lord came upon a nation, especially Israel, to punish it in a destructive way, it was described as "the day of the Lord." You simply follow the lead of the prominent, but wrong, futurists of our day and latch onto every passage that says "at hand" or "near" not in an attempt to understand but to support your preconceived ideas. That is always a dangerous thing. One must always investigate the context of the passages in which those time statements are found.
What is the historical setting of Haggai? It deals with the time BEFORE the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple! There were NOT five hundred years before Haggai 2:6 was fulfilled! Again, the time frame deals with Cyrus and the command to rebuild and restore the city and the Temple. The enemies of Israel (the nations) had been preventing this rebuilding. This is what Cyrus decreed: "May GOD . . . overthrow any KING or PEOPLE who lift a hand to change this decree or to destroy this temple in Jerusalem" (Ezra 6:11-12--read all of Ezra 6!). In total irony, Cyrus made the very enemies of Israel pay for the entire cost of not only the rebuilding but of the cost of everything the priests needed for the sacrifices! Within four years (520 B. C. - 516 B.C.--a little while) this was accomplished and the Temple was once again filled up with His glory! This is also typological and found its ultimate fulfillment in Christ. It is interesting that within four years after Hebrews 12:26 was written, God again overthrew the nations ("shook the heavens, the earth, the sea and the dry land"--Rome and its armies) in their persecution of the Church. The perfect Tabernacle in heaven was established forever!
The dating of the book of Joel is unclear. It is an assumption, then, that Joel is speaking of some far-distant "day of the Lord." Again, futurists do err when they insist on one day of the Lord--there are many. Whenever God came upon a nation to punish it, the event is described as "the day of the Lord." Joel apparently expected it in his lifetime since he cried out to the Lord concerning His coming destruction (Joel 1:19). In Joel 2:1 and 2, we see the day of the Lord described generically as gloominess and clouds and thick darkness. It was a time when "a people" would come "great and strong." They would be unlike any other people. IF this is THE Day of the Lord at some end of the world scenario, why could there be "successive generations" (vs. 2)? Notice how these people who are great and strong are described. "Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns." Nothing escapes them. They have the appearance of horses that run "with a noise of chariots." They leap over mountaintops! "The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble; the sun and moon grow dark, and the stars diminish their brightness" (2:3ff). These things did not literally occur! God is warning of what would come to His people if they did not repent. "Turn to Me with all your heart!" (verse 12).
Isaiah 51 begins thus: "Behold, I will raise up against BABYLON, against those who dwell in LEB KAMAI, a destroying wind." God was going to utterly destroy that Babylon! It was "the time of the Lord's vengeance" (verse 6). God raised up the Medes to perform this judgment and destruction (verse 11). BABYLON'S end had come (verse 13). God would repay her for "all the evil" she had done "in Zion" (verse 24). That particular Babylon was to remain "desolate forever" (verse 26). Kingdoms would come against her (Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz--verse 27). The nations, together with the MEDES, would cause the land to "tremble" (verses 28 and 29). It was THAT destruction of THAT OT Babylon which was to come in "yet a little while" (verse 33). It was that very Nebuchadnezzar (verse 34) who is pictured as having "devoured" and "crushed" "swallowed up" and "spit out" the inhabitants of Zion (verse 34). The same violence Babylon had brought upon her would come upon Babylon (verse 35). It is interesting that God promised this same things to the Thessalonians--their enemies would endure the same persecutions they had brought against them AT THE LORD'S APPEARING (see 2 Thes.1).
God took vengeance upon that OT Babylon (verse 36) and Babylon was made "desolate among the nations" (verse 41). This was a time of the "fierce anger of the Lord" against THAT OT Babylon (verse 45). The Lord said of that Babylon: "Therefore behold, the days are coming that I will bring judgment on the carved images of BABYLON" (verse 47). Notice the TYPICAL figurative upheavals in the heavens and the earth (verse 48). Notice also that they and all that is within them "SING joyously over Babylon" (verse 68).
How does God exact His judgment? He clearly states that "FROM ME, plunderers would come to her [Babylon--verse 53, the Medes]. In this same way, HE used the Romans to destroy the city and the Temple in A. D. 70!
Isaiah 10 deals with Assyria and the judgment upon HER. "Woe to ASSYRIA, the rod of My anger and the staff in whose hand is My indignation" (10:5). God comforts His people with these words--"O My people, who dwell in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrian." Why were THEY of that day not to be afraid? God was going to in "a very little while" destroy Assyria; He was going to "stir up a scourge for him like the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb; as His rod was on the sea, so will He lift up in the manner of Egypt" (verses 25 and 26).
Isaiah 13--This is the "burden against BABYLON which ISAIAH the son of Amoz SAW! (verse 1). It is their land ("the whole land") that is in view here. The "day of the Lord" that was AT HAND concerned the historical setting of that OT Babylon! Again, there are many days of the Lord! "Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and He will remove its sinners from it" (Babylon). How did God carry out this judgment upon that land of Babylon? "Behold, I will stir up the MEDES against them" (verse 17). The Medes had not pity upon them. "Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans pride" was overthrown as God had overthrown Sodom and Gomorrah (verse 19). That OT Babylon was laid waste and never inhabited again! The following verses and chapters deal with the judgments and proclamations against Assyria, Philistia, Moab, Syria, Israel, Ethiopia, and Egypt (chapters 15-19). The phrase "in that day" if often repeated! That is the context!
Isaiah 56:1--What is the context of the salvation which the Lord declares is near? Clearly, it involves first of all those to whom He exhorted to "Keep justice, and do righteousness." Did not His "salvation" come to those of Isaiah's day in the defeat of the Babylonians and their return to the land? The Lord spoke of Himself this way: "I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob" (49:26). God redeemed Israel from the Babylonians. Isaiah describes the Lord's bringing back of Zion--"Your waste places of Jerusalem! For the Lord HAS comforted His people, He HAS redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord has made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the SALVATION of our God" (Isa. 52:9-10). Those of his day are told to "Depart! Depart! Go away from there" (Isa. 52:11). God's salvation was indeed about to come in that day to those Israelites and His righteousness was revealed in their restoration from Babylon! God has always been and will always be the redeemer of His people.
Ezekiel 30:3f--Again, what is the immediate context? Sadly, difficulties arise when one insists that there is only one day of the Lord! The day of the Lord is anytime God comes in judgment! What is the context here? Is not the time of God's sword coming upon Egypt? Is not the time of "great anguish" coming upon Ethiopia? Who else is involved in this "day of the Lord?" Is it not "Libya, Lydia, all the people, Chub, and the men of the lands who are allied?" (30:5). Are these not those who were to "fall by the sword" in the "day of the Lord" that was THEN near? Notice the participants and players in this event. There is Egypt ("the pride of her power shall come down"). There is the entire area from Migdol to Syene--all those "within her" were to fall by the sword." Egypt and all her helpers were to be destroyed in "the day of the Lord" that was near at that historical time. How is this so easily ignored and made to refer to our day? Such reasoning completely ignores the context! The same historical relevance is seen in Ezekiel 36 when the people of that day (Israel) were about to come!
Zephaniah 1:14--Let's again consider the participants and the players in the context of THIS day of the Lord. In this historical setting God was to "cut off every trace of Baal" (verse 4). There were also those who swore by "Milcom" (verse 5). In THAT day there would be heard wailing from the inhabitants of "Maktesh" (verse 11--thought to be an area near Jerusalem whose merchants were still around in post-exilic Israel). This is a warning to those of Israel of that day. The great day of the Lord was near to them. It would come quickly upon THEM in "trouble and distress" (vs. 14). It would be a time of "devastation and desolation" . . . "darkness and gloominess," . . . "trumpet and alarm against the fortified cities and against the high towers" (words descriptive of that day and not of ours). THEY were to gather themselves together "before the decree" was issued--before the "day of the Lord's anger" came upon THEM! The "meek of the earth" and those who "upheld His justice" and sought "righteousness" and "humility" could be "hidden in that day of the Lord's anger" (2:1-3).
Notice again the players in this "day of the Lord's anger." There is Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, the Cherethites, the Philistines (2:4, 5). There is Moab and Ammon who are compared to Sodom and Gomorrah (2:8, 9). The Lord directly addresses the Ethiopians--"You Ehtiopians also, you shall be slain by My SWORD" (2:12). The Lord in the day of His anger would destroy Assyria and "make Nineveh a desolation" (2:13). These people and places clearly place Zephaniah 1:14-16 in that time frame!
So, you see, these words are uniform and the OT uses do match up with the NT uses. Please explain to me, through your investigation of ALL the uses of "near" and "at hand" in the NT, how they all match up with your understanding of how they are used in the OT verses you cited? Remember, you yourself insist that they must be "uniform!" If "near" or "soon" or "at hand" really mean "far" or "later," in the OT, please explain how that is uniform with ALL of the NT uses!
This has taken me a great deal of time. I will no longer do this in the future. Please present your understanding of the entire context of the verses you post or I will simply respectfully ignore them. It is much too time consuming to deal with posts containing numerous verses taken out of context.
Sincerely, Preterist
You accuse me of that for which you yourself are guilty, Osgiliath. Can't you see that?
