Differences in the giving of the Holy Spirit between the OT/NT?

[cyberjosh]

Hello everyone, [pardon the length]

I am going to undertake (again) an attempt to revisit a series of questions I had on these forums here several years ago when I was seeking earnestly to understand better the matter of salvation, the security of our salvation in the Spirit, and the possibility of apostasy during which I visited a very important topic on the operations of the Holy Spirit in the OT and NT and how the operations changed, or at least appeared to change, from the old to the new covenant. That discussion was in one of my threads titled "Clear examples of false belief in John & Epistles" where at one point I posted the following points for explanation (from this post):

Let me However point out a few things which I would greatly appreciate you explaining if possible about the difference in what you would call a "new creation" in the OT and how it is presented in the NT. I suppose you could say that God started making a "new creation" in the people of the OT if you can compare it to God's OT promises of giving a "new heart". Let me though try to work out some differences & similarities I see in parallel and see what you think about it.

OT || NT
1. Spirit affects the creation of a new heart || Spirit affects [a totally] new creation

2. If the Spirit left, the state of the new heart degenerated || No known explicit parallel in NT

3. 'New heart' was dependant on the HS it yet had no promise for long-term effects (permanance) or definate standing before God || Our new creation has a long-standing positional sanctification before God

4. OT saw no promise of a "seal" || NT has promise of the Spirit as a seal (thus we get to remain in our "new creation" since the HS does not depart - unlike OT examples)

Note also that Jesus is called the "firstborn among many" and the following "firstfruits" did not happen until Jesus' sacrifice, resurrection, and ascension. You cannot be "firstfruits" if those before in the OT experienced the same "new creation". Also at Hebrews 9:15 we read: "So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance." There was no such promise under the old covenant given immediately to individuals (even though OT prophecies predicted its future dispensation).

Here is the only problem I have in my "sanctified imagination" though (something I have a hard time visualizing): a "heart" is something we've always had, whether good or bad. However the NT is explicit that we have a "new creation" (not out of our old nature - for the remnanats of the old nature still exist) but it seems to have been created ex nihilo. So I don't see the "new creation" as a "state" of our spirit that can change from good to bad and back again like our "heart" can. What am I missing here, if anything?

Some of my views have since changed (particularly on point #4), also thanks in part to Joe's able and detailed response to that post, and I now have a better understanding and foundation for understanding the issue of our salvation's security and the possibility of turning away (as we are warned about many times in scripture). However, still, ever since the issue of the Holy Spirit's operation in the Old Testament had been brought up it has weighed on me as of utmost importance to understand if the New Testament's revelation of salvation through Christ is to be fully understood.

Joe's response challenged me to evaluate if salvation and the presence of the Spirit in the NT was really all that different from that in the OT, however I still have had a very difficult time trying to tell myself that there is no difference other than in the manner of the dispensation of that salvation and the Spirit's indwelling.

As in my quote I tried to demonstrate many "firsts" under the new covenant (which I think distinguish it from the Holy Spirit's operation in the OT), such as the "firstfruits" of salvation after Christ's resurrection and the issue of being "a new creation", which seem to be historical firsts in the NT. Also the gifts of the Spirit manifested after Pentecost seemed to be a new operation of the Spirit, although prophecy and miracles had long been demonstrated before in the OT and the Gospels.

So the real question is: how was the Spirit's operation in the NT different from the OT? My point #1 in the quote betrayed my understanding, which still is unresolved in my mind, that in the OT only the heart was changed for the individual when the Spirit rested on them (but there was no Baptism in the Spirit, saving regeneration, and rather was distinguished by coming-and-going as the Holy Spirit came upon and left people as he pleased [as with Samson and Saul]). Thus no real permanence of presence or internal change (at least not that could be called an entire "new creation"!), even for those like David, seems to have been made in the saints of the OT. This is similar to my view in the quoted point #3, for which my question of comparison had not changed much over the years. But if rather the OT did in fact have all those things (but imputed in advance due to Christ's eternal sacrifice) then what in fact was different under the new covenant? And how was regeneration, a new creation, and crucifixion of the flesh then accomplished in the OT if that is the case?

When I was a new Christian, and I genuinely suspect that this view holds for the majority of new Christians, I had a sense that something new and complete had been at work. When we first learn that we can leave our old sin life and finally be changed from the inside out, killing our "old man" and putting on our "new man", we walk into a whole new life and see that instant of our salvation through faith as a major moment that we internally change. We then see our lives through the fact of our being a "new creation". The OT saints also had such experiences of faith, but never with all the promises and immediacy of the Spirit that the new covenant brings. But then we run into the tougher scriptural issues that inform us that only if we endure to the end shall we be saved. So which is it? Did I become a new creation and become saved at the moment I believed, and (as a package deal) will I consequently also be saved in the end, or can I fall away? What then becomes of that moment we believed? Was it no different than the OT dispensation? Why then does it seem such a formative and rebirthing experience? When did an OT saint ever have such a similar experience? What if any of those at Pentecost had later apostatized? Those at Pentecost experienced, IMO something never done in the OT, and if they then fell away how can that unique experience (however) have accounted for anything different than the OT experience when the Spirit can depart from you? It seems paradoxical, although paradoxes by definition are assumed to be true.

I personally have an understanding that one can indeed fall away (sorry to bring that much debated conclusion to the table in this larger discussion) if they repeatedly reject both God's mercy and judgment. I also believe that the salvation under the new covenant and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something entirely unique (though always promised, prophesied about, and foreshadowed) and that we cannot pawn it off as just being, "the same as how the Spirit operated in the OT". But then my dilemma is, in light of apostasy, how can we really distinguish the unique operations of the Holy Spirit under the new covenant from His operations in the Old Covenant? I suspect that it actually has something to do with, under this new dispensation, the fact of the Spirit's indwelling (not to visit - or occasionally rest upon) in us along with the Father and Son (as promised), which provides us with unparalleled access to the Father since the veil has been torn and the entrance to the holy of hollies has been opened, and now secured us under a new covenant. And now with a new covenant we thus experience the new promises under it, but also with greater responsibility, which if abused can end us up in the same situation as anyone who apostatized in the OT. That is an inkling I have of the true answer that I feel explains this. But I'm open to other thoughts, and I encourage and invite them.

[continued briefly below]

 

[cyberjosh]

So, really, in order to deal with that larger question, I wanted to discuss and explore how the Holy Spirit affected salvation in the Old Testament, and then compare it to how the Holy Spirit affected salvation in the New Testament to gain some insights into this. Even for those who believe in OSAS, or at least do not believe apostasy is possible for a believer (to whom I do apologize to if my starting position disturbs them), the issue of the Holy Spirit's operation in the Old Testament compared to the New Testament is just as important to know whether you believe in eternal security or not.

I may also ask Joe to comment again on this issue after so many years. I do not mean to single him out, but I always enjoyed his thoughts. I do beckon to everyone though, please, to weigh in on this to maybe shed some light on this issue.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Sissy]

Hi CyberJosh,

Excellent topic.

My personal view is that the Holy Spirit did not operate differently (per se).

Your example of Pentecost, and how that was a unique experience, does not mean the Holy Spirit operated differently.
Unique experiences were also prevalent in the OT.
For example, not everyone got to call down fire from heaven as Elijah did.

In other words, unique experiences were not a different mode of operation for the Holy Spirit to use.



As per "new creation", the Greek has two different words it uses for "new" (kainos and neos).
Neos refers to age and is what would be used for a new born child.
Kainos refers to freshness and is what would be used for things like a new (fresh) ripe tomato.
This new tomato would be complete and unblemished.

This is the meaning of us (believers) being a new creature.
Because we are in Christ, His nature (complete and unblemished) is our inheritance. We become sons of God, just as Christ is son of God.

God bless our studies.

 

[francisdesales]

So, really, in order to deal with that larger question, I wanted to discuss and explore how the Holy Spirit affected salvation in the Old Testament, and then compare it to how the Holy Spirit affected salvation in the New Testament to gain some insights into this.

First, thanks for your kind comments. I hope I can live up to the standards of 2007! Who'd have thought that something I posted could have been of some use to someone else!

I agree with the gist of Sissy's post. We are dealing with the work of God in the OT, as well as the NT, just in different modes or manners. I would like to make some initial observations...

Clearly, faith is and always was a gift from God, agree?
The NT itself (Hebrews 11, especially) discusses our forefathers in faith. Now, how did they get this faith? From God's Spirit. In addition, we see righteous people, such as Joseph (Jesus' foster father), which predates the "giving of the Spirit".

Faith, as Paul notes, is something found in the OT, as well.

It does seem that the Spirit was given to priests, prophets and kings, more so than individuals. Perhaps salvation was more dependent at the corporate level in the early OT period. The people suffered or were blessed depending upon the actions at the corporate level, kings and so forth. Also, there are some passages that imply that God's Spirit would be given on a larger scale in the future. That "common people" would prophesize and perform wonderous acts.

I think part of the solution is the Jewish approach to Torah that was incorrect. Jesus and Paul especially attack this notion of legalism. By "doing the works", one could be considered righteous, in the eyes of the community and oneself. But very clearly, throughout Scriptures, God is looking for a pure heart, one that calls upon God's loving mercy and not obligating God because of what they had done. "Works of the Law" (legalism) is not the approach the faithful take towards God, whether in the OT or the NT. And thus, the Spirit is sent "anew" to correct this approach. The Old Covenant sets forth the Torah in written form. The New Covenant clarifies the proper approach to following the Torah.

Love of God and neighbor sums up the Law. The Law is not abrogated - it is always there. But now, rather than focusing on "doing things" like washing plates and cups, the focus is directed towards a pure heart moved by the Spirit to love and forgive, even our enemies. Thus, "Christ fulfills (shows what it means to perfect, not completes so we don't have to do it) the Law".

I believe this "new" movement of the Spirit is to serve this purpose - to enable ALL men (since salvation is now available to all, not just Jews) to obey the Law, the proper response of Love to God and Neighbor. It is not "new" as far as "the Spirit was not present prior" but "new" in mode and presentation to a larger base.

Just some thoughts before we delve more deeply...

Regards

 

[Nathan]

So the real question is: how was the Spirit's operation in the NT different from the OT?

This should be a LONG thread before its over...lol. Where as I would LOVE to go into explicit detail about what I know. I will answer the question on hand. My heart goes out to you, sounds like you might be somewhat still struggling with the issue??? Some say that struggle is bad. I do not think so. Some say it is doubt. I do not think its a bad doubt. In fact, what it is, is a search for the truth.

And that is precisely what we are all called to do. Seek the truth. His truth. I think, I believe, that God will give us an 'unrest' to motivate us to seek for wisdom that comes from above. A fire that burns within our inmost parts. So, lol, with all of that said Josh, I hope that you can get the information your searching for about this. But let it suffice to say that true "faith" in how Salvation works and what it is, will only come from reading the Bible. Us mere men will only serve to confuse things most of the time. But praise God, He uses even us to work all things out according to His will.

To the Question;

Salvation does not come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Salvation comes from faith. Faith leads us to grace. Grace leads us to Salvation.

Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God..."

Tts 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people..."

Ok, so picture that in your mind. Right? God calls out to man...man responds to God...God gives man faith...man believes God...God gives man grace...man follows God in grace...God leads man to Salvation...man inherits Salvation...

Although, we can be assured of our inheritance, we have not as of yet received it. We have received it by faith, but actual "possession" of it has not yet been attained. Ok, at least what WE think of Salvation as. But, the real question is, what is Salvation?

We must understand that we do not have eternal life as of yet. It is coming. What we do have now, is indeed Salvation. So, to understand the differences, if any between the work of the Spirit in the OT/NT, we have to understand what Salvation is.

But a quick look, based upon what we know of Salvation in the NT, faith -> grace -> salvation. We then look at what the writer of Hebrews says;

Hbr 11:39-40 "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

So I think a quick answer to your question, without going into extreme detail, is there is no difference in the work of the Spirit between the two. The Spirit is the one that leads us. Now the difference does reside in the fact that God choose people in the OT to put His Spirit into, who would then speak the "word" of God to people, so that they could receive Faith. Then through that faith they would eventually inherit the promises of God.

Now, in the day of "grace", God has chosen to 'pour' out His Spirit on ALL flesh. Therefore, ALL mankind has been given opportunity to receive faith. This 'outpouring' is through grace. So the only difference between the two is the simple fact that back then the Spirit was only poured out into certain individuals, who would proclaim the word to others...thereby ensuring the specific lineage of faith that would lead up to the coming Messiah. And when the Messiah was made known, when He came, the Spirit was poured out on all, so that no man would be without excuse of knowing the truth.

There in lies the difference. The role in the OT vs. NT is the same. The Spirit brings the truth of God to provide Faith to those who will believe. OT people had a specific line of saints that were indwelt who lead those who would believe. NT people have "no need of anyone to teach them" because they have the teacher residing in them.

Now here might be the difference that you have in the back of your head. If a man does not have the Spirit of God, that man cannot be a child of God. Right? So we assume that the Spirit of God is Salvation. And in a sense He is, but specifically what we understand of Salvation is not what Salvation is. Confused yet? I am. lol.

People could be "children of God" in the OT through faith. And it is the same now days also. But, God has declared that in this "day" of grace, the Spirit of God residing in man is where the faith comes from. Why? There is the difference. It is a HUGE subject, but maybe I can boil it down.

All of the rules, laws, statutes, commands of God in the OT 'kept' the person with faith in line and focused on the Messiah who would come to bring Salvation. Those rules, laws, statutes, commands were given to the people through only those who were indwelt by the Spirit. The Spirit of God now does that in the life of a believer. He is available to ALL who would believe, but He 'keeps' the one who does have faith 'secure' by leading them and training them in righteousness. But in both cases it is all on the premise of faith.

This is why James says that faith without works is dead.

 

[mondar]

Josh, I think you are asking excellent questions. I have asked myself some similar questions. I must also admit, that there are aspects of those questions I have not fully resolved, but on the other hand, it is probably obvious that I am not landing in the same place that you are (and francis).

While the questions are good questions, very good questions, I want to make some observations.
1--- I think your questions come from observations that if certain ministries of the HS are prophecies in the OT there must be a difference somewhere with regard to the functions of the HS in the NT. Otherwise there would be no "fulfillment." As for me, I am not totally certain where I stand on this assumption. I also consider the possibility that it is not the function of the HS, but rather the scope of his ministries. To explain would take a lot of exegetical work and be beyond the scope of this forum. I could sum up that the difference is that individual Israelites experienced the ministries of the HS, but the OT promises suggest that the HS will be poured out upon "all flesh." Some might be uncomfortable with this since it implies that the NT is not the OT fulfillment, but that there shall be another event that shall be the fulfillment.
2--- I observe is that you seem to equate OT and New Testament terms. The OT uses terms for the ministries of the HS as "filled" or "came upon." You seem to assume that these things somehow equal regeneration, of Baptism, or some NT term. I do not know what exegetical basis you would use for such assumptions. Possibly you could search the NT for OT quotes that contain such terminology. Of course Peters quote of Joel 2 would be important. The Hebrews application of Jeremiah 31 would also be important, and I am sure a few other quotes. I would suggest being open minded here. It is possible that the term "came upon" in the OT could related to different NT ministries in different NT contexts, and not just relate to one NT term.
3--- You also seem to be considering that OT saints had some sort of regenerate heart that the HS would leave, and then the regenerate nature would go through a process of degradation. I think of the OT quote, "can a leopard change its spots?" Possibly this would be the point to begin some exegetical work. It would be an interesting discussion to see where OT saints can change their nature.

 

[smaller]

So, really, in order to deal with that larger question, I wanted to discuss and explore how the Holy Spirit affected salvation in the Old Testament, and then compare it to how the Holy Spirit affected salvation in the New Testament to gain some insights into this. Even for those who believe in OSAS, or at least do not believe apostasy is possible for a believer (to whom I do apologize to if my starting position disturbs them), the issue of the Holy Spirit's operation in the Old Testament compared to the New Testament is just as important to know whether you believe in eternal security or not.

There are a lot of possible faulty assumptions in your views in the initial 2 posts Josh.

While it is TRUE that any believer can fall away in this present life, that does NOT equate to salvation 'eternally lost.' No scripture in the N.T. shows any believer ETERNALLY LOST. That entire presentation simply does NOT EXIST. It is a 'fabrication' based on the assumption that falling in this present life means ETERNALLY LOST salvation. That assumption does not equate. IF Christ is IN a person, He never leaves them or forsakes them. You can insert the balance of all the OSAS scriptures at this point.

The only basis for the eternal salvation lost camp is AN ASSUMPTION of present life falling extending past the grave. But the reality is that there is NO SUCH PRESENTATION in the text applied to any specified believer as AN EXAMPLE. So that entire premise remains an ASSUMPTION only and one without direct scriptural proof. In other words it is only A GUESS.

As to Gods Workings of salvation in the O.T?

We know that GRACE and TRUTH came ONLY by and through Jesus Christ. We also know that ALL who came before Jesus were as follows:

John 10:8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

The 'natural' inclination of the believer in their heart is to say "I am a sheep, therefore I do not hear the thieves and robbers." But the reality of this matter is that ALL who came before Him are (note the word ARE not WERE) THIEVES AND ROBBERS. The sheep of the O.T. did NOT HEAR THE VOICE of the THIEVES AND ROBBERS, but if ALL who came before JESUS are such, then the THIEVES AND ROBBERS were inclusive IN and AMONGST the SHEEP because the SHEEP are inclusive in the ALL that came before Him.

Interesting dilema isn't it? Jesus 'could have' clarified this matter by simply stating that the SHEEP were not inclusive in the ALL that ever came before Him, but He didn't and He didn't on PURPOSE.

The 'blinding' of the O.T. was no different for them than it is for ALL of us. It is the 'god of this world' that has ALWAYS blinded the minds of ALL people.

SOME in this present life are CALLED OUT to hear, and are then TURNED from the power of SATAN unto GOD.

Look at that simple equation and you may SEE who the THIEVES and ROBBERS really are. They 'ARE,' not WERE devils who BLINDED unbelieving Israel, the SPIRIT OF SLUMBER that came to those who were UNDER their influences and BLINDING their minds and hearts so they COULD NOT SEE OR HEAR either GODS WORDS or the workings of those thieves and robbers upon themselves.

Jesus OPENED this COVER.

For an even more engaging picture, you may see that the LAW aroused LAWLESSNESS in Israel. I would contend that GRACE AND TRUTH aroused that same working, even MORESO and brought the WORKINGS OF DARKNESS that were previously HIDDEN out into VIEW.

Jesus, Gods Living Word was SOWN into Israel, and WHO showed up at the party by a MYRIAD OF DEVILS in Israel?

Food for thought. Anyone who does NOT have an account of SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS that is in operation and IS of the DEVIL can not possibly have a logical and reasoned views of these matters.

Jesus brought A NEW DOCTRINE into ISRAEL and OPENLY DEMONstrated in AMONGST and IN THE MIDST of them:

Mark 1:27
And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Unclean SPIRITS obeyed JESUS.

Does this mean they were LAWFULLY and LEGALLY obedient? No. They OBEYED by SHOWING themselves and THEIR LOCATION in THE PEOPLE of ISRAEL.

There ARE the thieves and robbers whom THE SHEEP did not prior HEAR or SEE.

Those SAME thiever and robbers ARE STILL HERE, awaiting their FINAL JUDGMENTS.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[cyberjosh]

Thank you all for your thoughtful posts! Thanks first of all for reading my posts, and secondly for responding to them.

You each bring up very good points, and I will try to address them with what time I have left of my lunch break.

My personal view is that the Holy Spirit did not operate differently (per se).

Your example of Pentecost, and how that was a unique experience, does not mean the Holy Spirit operated differently.
Unique experiences were also prevalent in the OT.
For example, not everyone got to call down fire from heaven as Elijah did.

In other words, unique experiences were not a different mode of operation for the Holy Spirit to use.

I agree with the gist of Sissy's post. We are dealing with the work of God in the OT, as well as the NT, just in different modes or manners. I would like to make some initial observations...

I think as well that I agree with the idea that the Spirit does operate in different modes an manners, and I do not mean to imply in anyway that the unchangable, eternal God has changed his mind about how to ultimately do things. Let me try to clarify my point of inquiry by responding to something nathanielhooper said:

Hbr 11:39-40 "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

So I think a quick answer to your question, without going into extreme detail, is there is no difference in the work of the Spirit between the two. The Spirit is the one that leads us. Now the difference does reside in the fact that God choose people in the OT to put His Spirit into, who would then speak the "word" of God to people, so that they could receive Faith. Then through that faith they would eventually inherit the promises of God.

I agree, nothing has changed in regard to the requirements of faith in God for salvation, and the OT saints faith was made valid since Christ's sacrifice was considered made from before the foundation of the world. I do think however perhaps, or it seems so, that something was "added", perhaps only the fullness of the promises, which seems to make the quality of a Christian's walk by faith in Christ different than the exact experience that the OT saint would have had. Part of it has to do with the idea similar to what you quoted in Hebrews 11:39-40 were it said they "did not receive what was promised", that is yet. I agree that this does not mean they would never inherit it, for certainly their end will the exact end of the saints of God in the Church today.

So let me take this idea of a delay of a/the promise, particularly to a promise of the Spirit, to detail my line of thought a little more. This study will focus in on the promises Jesus made during his ministry in the Gospels looking forward to his death, ressurection, and ascention (and occasionally eschatalogically to his second coming). First let us begin with John the Baptist who came, in the line and manner of OT prophets in proclaiming the Lord's coming, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near!" and he proclaimed something new for the people to prepare themselves for: "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11). Here is something yet future as of the time it was spoken and Jesus was to bring this baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is something new. So how then do we compare it with the OT's operations of the Holy Spirit? Let me go on.

Jesus many, many times in John spoke of the coming of the Spirit. He said in John 7:
"38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

Here Jesus spoke of a special "giving" of the Spirit not yet accomplished. Had the Spirit ever before been "given" before (or was is something different, such as "resting upon") in history? This was something special waiting until Christ had been glorified. See that? It looks forward to something "not yet given" (vs. 38). What was it?

Again, Jesus reaffirmed a promise to his disciples of receiving the Spirit for sticking with him through his trials, thus if they had apostatized from him during his ministry they would not have received it (as did Judas). Jesus said to them, "You are those who have stood by Me in My trials" (Luke 22:28). Jesus then encouraged them in light of the fact that he was going to ascend to Heaven ("be glorified") and depart from them for the time being in John 16 by promising them the helper: "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you" (John 16:7). Something must happen before the helper comes. Also He said, "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth" (vs. 13). This is still predicating on the "not yet" status of the Spirit being "given". Again we also see a distinct experience (Sissy mentioned unique experienced in the OT, but can any match this?) of Jesus breathing on the disciples to give them the Spirit, and 50 days later Pentecost happening to "endue them with power from on high".

Something unique happened! Now I put it to you, how then can anyone say this had happened before in the OT, and what was this new thing that had been promised to them concerning the Spirit?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

There are a lot of possible faulty assumptions in your views in the initial 2 posts Josh

Thank you for your thoughts smaller. I will sincerely address this when I have more time, my lunch break is over now.

However, if you would be so kind, I do not want to side track this thread into a debate on the idea of eternal security. There are many such existing threads, and this was meant to focus in more explicitly on the operation of the Spirit in regards to salvation. I know I mentioned my views on eternal security, but only in so much as I wanted to make my greater point about the Holy Spirit in the OT and NT. Perhaps I could address some of your points about salvation in a new thread? Would that be satisfactory so that we do not go off on a tangent?

P.S. I find your concerns very valid, so this is not a dismissal, just a plead to stay on topic.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[smaller]

Thank you for your thoughts smaller. I will sincerely address this when I have more time, my lunch break is over now.

However, if you would be so kind, I do not want to side track this thread into a debate on the idea of eternal security. There are many such existing threads, and this was meant to focus in more explicitly on the operation of the Spirit in regards to salvation. I know I mentioned my views on eternal security, but only in so much as I wanted to make my greater point about the Holy Spirit in the OT and NT. Perhaps I could address some of your points about salvation in a new thread? Would that be satisfactory so that we do not go off on a tangent?

P.S. I find your concerns very valid, so this is not a dismissal, just a plead to stay on topic.

God Bless,

~Josh

The bulk of my comments were on subject and not related to OSAS. The OSAS comments were a gift note to your own comments on same.

 

[Nathan]

Something unique happened! Now I put it to you, how then can anyone say this had happened before in the OT, and what was this new thing that had been promised to them concerning the Spirit?

Indeed Josh, indeed! This had never happened before on a WIDE spread basis. The new thing is that no more would a man have to say "know ye the Lord".

Hbr 8:11 "And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest."

It is the idea that in OT times the person(singular) would have the Spirit of God come upon them. They would in turn prophesy to the people(plural) about the things of God. Those "things" were the words of God. Which we know that Faith cannot come except from hearing. Not necessarily 'literal' hearing, but Spiritual hearing.

Because it is Spiritual hearing, it is by faith. Back then, the Spirit caused physical and spiritual hearing of God's words to be known that brought faith to the hearer. In the NT times God's Spirit comes upon ALL man bringing Spiritual hearing to the listener. Both types/times 'induce', give birth, to faith.

The only difference is that aspect. Other than that there is no relation between the Spirit and Salvation. But we know and understand now, that without the Spirit of God in the life of an individual now, that person cannot have true faith. The only faith they might have is self induced.

Back then people could indeed have the exact same kind of faith. How without the Holy Spirit? Because, it still came through hearing. Inward hearing. While they might not have the Spirit 'dwell' in them, they were still able to receive the Faith God would give. They 'portrayed' that faith by the offering of sacrifices and 'works' done under the law. They were following the faith they had been given.

Us today, understand that the faith we have been given is a faith that says Christ has broken the curse of sin. We are no longer in bondage. Before, they were in bondage, now we are not. Before they had to continually offer sacrifices, today we do not. Before they atoned for their sin by their 'works', today we show forth God's atonement for our sins by our 'works'.

But the only way to do that is through the indwelling of the Spirit.

So why the difference? Good Question, I am glad you asked! But in reality it is a different topic. The topic at hand is "differences in Salvation by the Holy Spirit". And quite frankly there is no difference. The purpose, and work of the Holy Spirit is to work in the life of an 'group of people back then' and the 'individual now', to produce fruits of Righteousness. Why did God choose to only give specific individuals the Spirit back then, and chooses to 'pour' Him out on us today, is not found in the Bible.

There is nowhere you are going to see a specific explanation or even come to a conclusive determination I do not think. But I would love it if someone has and would explain that. But again, that is a different topic.

What we do know for a fact is that The Spirit of God did not dwell in ALL people with Faith in the OT. BUT we do know that ALL people with Faith today MUST have the Spirit of God in them for it to be real. In the grand scheme of things, because we are mere mortals and only see so far into the past and future, we do not really see the big picture even though we think we do sometimes.

What we do see, from our limited view, is a God that made a promise to the very first people on this earth that He would redeem them from the curse of sin they brought upon THEMSELVES. We see that in the OT God was 'confining' all under sin, and He was 'showing forth' the way He intended to redeem all mankind from sin. We see the NT open up with the fulfillment of that promise, the Messiah, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the World....Praise God!

We see now that the work He did on the Cross, and raising from the grave, was to ensure that the power of death and sin had been BROKEN FOREVER. Now, we no longer live in the fear of death, but in the freedom of the broken curse. It is not that we should live in the placid state of self indulgence, but we can not FULLY serve God, alone, because the curse has not been broken for ALL of creation. We can now fulfill His purpose for us, by the Power of The Spirit, because of the work He did, but here is the clincher; Because the entire world has not yet been redeemed, the creation itself has not been redeemed, and our 'bodies' have not yet been redeemed; we must have the Spirit of God NOW living in us to fulfill the role we have been enabled to do.

Love God with all of our hearts, souls, mind, and strength. And loving our neighbor as ourself.

Back then, they were still confined under the curse. The Spirit was only needed to bring faith. Once faith took root in the life of an individual, the Spirit's work was done. Because we are free from the curse now, the Spirit first role is to plant faith in our life, and when that faith grows, the Spirit 'abides' with us to empower us to live the life we were called to live.

That is why it is so CRUCIAL for the believer to understand that while the Spirit's role is not to contain Salvation in Himself, in the life of a believer; It is the Spirits role to help us in our time of testing and proving of our Faith under the new covenant. The covenant that says no longer look to the Law for Salvation, but look to the fulfillment of the Law, The Christ, The Son of God, the God Man, The Messiah, The God who became Man.

That, my dear friend, is the only difference in the two sides. And it is crucial to understand that while Faith comes from God, the Spirit is needed ALSO because He is who teaches us, and guides us, and keeps us from turning back to a life of disbelief. He is our Helper.

 

[francisdesales]

Something unique happened! Now I put it to you, how then can anyone say this had happened before in the OT, and what was this new thing that had been promised to them concerning the Spirit?

God Bless,

~Josh

How about "eternal life"???

The OT righteous people were in a "holding pattern" until the "winnowing of hell". This is part of the Nicene Creed- "He (Jesus) descended into hell". The purpose was to free the righteous awaiting the Messiah and the fulfillment of the Promise that went beyond man's wildest imagination. The Jews thought the promise was something temporal, Land.

No one had entered into eternal life yet. The OT Covenant was merely a shadow of the Promise to come. And interestingly, Jesus says that the least of the Kingdom is greater than the greatest of OT prophets, John the Baptist... Thus, for those whom the promise is given (those sealed by the Spirit) indeed have been given something "new" and "greater". As to John, the difference is certainly not the "indwelling" or lack thereof in this life, I would venture to say that the Spirit of God had come to rest upon John, the New Elijah, during John's ministry. HOW ELSE would we claim John's behavior, without God's Spirit resting upon him? As a result of the New Covenant, we are being sealed, and the first fruits (Jesus) has gone before us. Gone where? Jesus ascended to heaven, and we have also been promised this.

The something "new" is the offer of eternal life and union with God in heaven. We don't find this promise "much" in the OT... You only see it through the Promise Christ made clear, since the OT is only fully understood through Christ.

Regards

 

[Nathan]

How about "eternal life"???

The OT righteous people were in a "holding pattern" until the "winnowing of hell". This is part of the Nicene Creed- "He (Jesus) descended into hell". The purpose was to free the righteous awaiting the Messiah and the fulfillment of the Promise that went beyond man's wildest imagination. The Jews thought the promise was something temporal, Land.

No one had entered into eternal life yet. The OT Covenant was merely a shadow of the Promise to come. And interestingly, Jesus says that the least of the Kingdom is greater than the greatest of OT prophets, John the Baptist... Thus, for those whom the promise is given (those sealed by the Spirit) indeed have been given something "new" and "greater". As to John, the difference is certainly not the "indwelling" or lack thereof in this life, I would venture to say that the Spirit of God had come to rest upon John, the New Elijah, during John's ministry. HOW ELSE would we claim John's behavior, without God's Spirit resting upon him? As a result of the New Covenant, we are being sealed, and the first fruits (Jesus) has gone before us. Gone where? Jesus ascended to heaven, and we have also been promised this.

The something "new" is the offer of eternal life and union with God in heaven. We don't find this promise "much" in the OT... You only see it through the Promise Christ made clear, since the OT is only fully understood through Christ.

Regards

I am not trying to discount your theology, but the promise of eternal life was promised in the OT also. And no, we do not have it as of yet. But the grace of God, manifested through the Spirit of God, is what leads us to that eternal life.

Tit 1:1-3 "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began 3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;"

See here. Paul has "hope" of eternal life. He defines hope elsewhere as that which is not yet seen. And he also declares that God promised it before the ages ever began.

Heb 11:13 "These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth."

The people of old never saw this place(earth) as 'it'. They knew what the promises of God were, eternal life, and realized that this place and time we are in now was just a temporary place.

Now I am not saying that it was a blatant, out and out description of what eternal life was. It was a 'mystery' of sorts.

Romans 16:25-26 "Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith..."

I think the best example we can know is that there is recorded in history that some believed in eternal life, and some, like the Sadducee's, did not believe in eternal life. It was a great mystery to them. But not all Jews believed it was Land, or at least land here on this earth. They made witness with their lives that they were seeking a new heavens and new earth.

I will have to agree, if it is this that you are saying, that the work of the Spirit in the NT believers is to keep that promise of eternal life constantly before our eyes. That was definitely something that they did not have in the OT.

1 Jn 2:24-27 "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you(the word of faith brought to us by the Spirit). If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing(Spirit) that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything(John 14:26)—and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you—abide in him."

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello again Nathaniel and Joe. Joe, very thought provoking post! I want to consider it in more detail before I respond, and I want to consult some of my commentary resources too that this brings to mind.

Now, Nathaniel. I thank you for your consideration on the aspect of the Spirit and faith, and certainly that is a big contribution of the Spirit to our lives. Faith is even a gift of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians. However there is one thing (with respect) that I differ with in your understanding of the Spirit's operation. You said:

Because it is Spiritual hearing, it is by faith. Back then, the Spirit caused physical and spiritual hearing of God's words to be known that brought faith to the hearer. In the NT times God's Spirit comes upon ALL man bringing Spiritual hearing to the listener. Both types/times 'induce', give birth, to faith.

The only difference is that aspect. Other than that there is no relation between the Spirit and Salvation. But we know and understand now, that without the Spirit of God in the life of an individual now, that person cannot have true faith. The only faith they might have is self induced.

I disagree that the Spirit has no further operation in our life or relation to Salvation. In fact spiritual regeneration is accomplished by the imputing of Christ's sacrifice upon us through the power, presence, and mediation of the Holy Spirit. Christ's very sacrifice by which we are cleansed and made new by salvation was made through the Spirit, "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" (Hebrews 9:14). I also believe that the Baptism of the Spirit is equivalent to regeneration, but I can go over that in another thread (and I think I have covered that in a past thread one time). But the thing is, even Jesus in one of the most famous chapters in the Bible, John chapter 3 (which is in the context of salvation and the new birth), explicitly says that one must be born of the Spirit to enter God's Kingdom. Being born again (through the Spirit) = salvation. And what Jesus revealed to Nicodemus was something new, never accomplished before, no one was born again until Christ's sacrifice was accomplished. Although, all the principles of Jesus' John 3 teaching were in the OT, as we see in Jesus' expection for Nicodemus to understand as a teacher of the Mosaic law.

Joe may be on to something with his relation of eternal life with the Holy Spirit, because it wasn't until Jesus' ministry (especially the bread of life sermon in John 6) that Jesus openly proclaimed the availability of eternal life to those that would come to him. I will have to explore that thought more to take into account OT foreshadowing and promises of eternal life. The main difference is that Christians get to experience a present foretaste of eternal life now (which though will ultimately will be given to us by God at the end).

You (and others) have made valid points several times about the OT just having fewer people whom the Spirit rested and operated upon (kings, priests, prophets), and I believe this is related to the future promise of the Spirit one day being poued out on all flesh (which we see the beginning of at Pentecost), but in the NT the Holy Spirit also serves a very specific function which could not be done before Christ came, and that is quite simply that the Holy Spirit was to act as the companion and Helper of all believers in absence of Jesus' physical presence since Jesus had to ascend to His Father to prepare a place for us. Thus the Spirit acts to us as the very presence of Jesus himself (in the mystery of the Trinity; even called "the Spirit of Jesus" [Acts 16:7]), along with the Father and Son also making their abode in us (John 14:23). But I see consistently that the Spirit is not only an agent of our salvation, to be born by the Spirit, and not only a Helper, but also is a guarantor of our salvation as a "downpayment" of eternal life (2 Corinthians 1:22) and a seal authenticating our salvation in Christ.

There does seem to be a new promise of the Holy Spirit abiding to stay (only foreshadows and prophecies of this in the OT) and with it an immediate foretaste of eternal life. I do think the Scripture gives ample proof that we do experience and partake in some of God's eternal life now, even though its full manifestation and fulfillment is to ultimately be given to us when God ushers us into eternity in His Kingdom. This is part of Pauls "now, but not yet" theology in which he tell us that some of our "hope" is (to use a theological phrase) infact "eschatalogically realized" in the present, as a sort of immediate foretaste, and it is by this foretaste that we experience the gifts of the Spirit and (as stated in Hebrews 6:4-5) the "power of the age to come".

So in summary I see the Spirit as being very active in the matter of our salvation and regeneration and in His continued work as a downpayment and gurantee in our life of ultimate eternal life with God. I hope that you also can see this Scriptural theme.

In Christ,

~Josh

 

[Nathan]

I disagree that the Spirit has no further operation in our life or relation to Salvation. In fact spiritual regeneration is accomplished by the imputing of Christ's sacrifice upon us through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Joe may be on to something with his relation of eternal life with the Holy Spirit, because it wasn't until Jesus' ministry (especially the bread of life sermon in John 6) that Jesus openly proclaimed the availability of eternal life to those that would come to him.

Thus the Spirit acts to us as the very presence of Jesus himself (the mystery of the Trinity), with the Father and Son also making their abode in us (John 14:23). But I see consistently that the Spirit is not only an agent of our salvation, to be born by the Spirit, and not only a Helper, but also is a guarantor of our salvation as a "downpayment" of eternal life (2 Corinthians 1:22) and a seal authenticating our salvation in Christ.

So in summary I see the Spirit very active in the matter of our salvation and regeneration and in his continued work as a downpayment and gurantee in our life of eternal life with God. I hope you also can see this Scriptural theme.]

I think you might have misunderstood me. I made the statement that the Spirit of God does not have any other relation to Salvation than providing us with Faith. If He played anymore of a part in it, then it would not be by faith. Then those in the OT, who did not have the Spirit abiding with them their whole lives through, would have had a different manner of inheriting Salvation. Paul makes this abundantly clear that they were "saved" the same way we are. By faith alone.

But that does not mean that is the only role of the Spirit. He does indeed help us continue in the faith in all aspects of our lives. But thats just it, He helps us, not makes us. To say that He has more part in Salvation than helping us cannot be Biblically supported. I am sorry. The promises must rest on faith alone.

The teaching that the Spirit somehow 'miraculously' keeps us safe once we believe is not only false, but is very misleading in the work that the Spirit does indeed do. Yes, He does enable us to live righteously and soberly lives in this present time. But that comes through faith, which He constantly imparts to us through His teaching. It is always up to us to obey. And by making the work of the Spirit anything more than a simple leader and teacher negates our responsibility to follow. If He 'miraculously' imparts Salvation apart from obedience, then it really would not matter, literally, what we do after receiving faith.

Maybe the confusion is the 'new birth'? We are indeed born again by the Spirit of God. How? Can a man enter into his mothers womb and be born again that way? Not a chance. This is a inward birth. The birth where God removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Then we are transformed day by day by the renewing of our minds/spirit. This is where the Spirits work takes place. He enables us to conform to the desires that were birthed in our inner man, living them out in the flesh through the control of our renewed minds.

It is not the idea that our soul/heart, is somehow taken 'hostage' by the Spirit of God. The seal is His abiding presence in our lives. It is a seal of ability and ownership. To say that the seal is some 'unbreakable' lock and chain is just not Biblically correct. The seal is a sign of authority. It has always been a sign of authority. When a man was to give absolute authority to another, he would do so with a seal. It was up to the person who the authority was given to, to use it. They were not forced to use it, in fact, if they wanted to, they could discard it.

But that is why it seems ridiculous to us. You and I, and others, cannot fathom the idea of discarding the seal of God. It is unthinkable to disregard the promises that are given to us. But we are given a dire warning that it indeed is possible, and it has happened before. This is not to scare us, perfect love casts out all fear, but this is to enable us to understand that the seal is not just to be admired....it is to be used.

The seal is useless if someone stores it away, sells it to another, or even throws it away as trash. The seal has no power in and of itself. It only backs the power that is behind the seal.

"Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears."

Jn 16:13-15 "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you[not make you go] into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it[not force] to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

The Spirit has a magnificent role in the life of a believer. But the role is very single purposed in nature. He declares to us the things of God. The Word of God. Then, that Word is what grows faith in us. We live by faith, the faith that is constantly being given to us by the Spirit.

Many believe that the Spirit does something more...so they wait...and they wait...and then wait some more....

After all, didn't the disciples have to wait for the Spirit to come before they were to go out? Right! And when Jesus had gone and sat down at the Right Hand of the Blessed God Almighty, the Spirit came...and then they went forth. They did not have to then wait again later on. He had come. It was done. The promise that God made about pouring out His Spirit came. It was finished.

Ac 2:14-17 "But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘ And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;"


Now...We have the Spirit of God here in full measure. There is no more 'secrete' outpourings. There is no 'renewal' that must take place like there was in the OT. We have the Spirit in full measure.

2 Pe 1:3-4 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."

1 Pe 1:3-5 "According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Pe 1:22-23 "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God[which comes by the Spirit abiding in us]..."

Hey...it is ALL through faith...why?

Ro 4:16 "That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,"

See, if we make it depend on the Spirit of God and not solely on faith, then there would be different 'ways' and 'types' of Salvation. But because Salvation is a Person, namely Jesus the Christ, and not a 'thing' to be grasped, it all must reside on Faith and Faith alone. The Spirit of God has ALWAYS been involved in the process of Faith. But that is the extent of His work in us. And is precisely why there is no difference in OT/NT Salvation by the Holy Spirit. The difference is the "role" of the Spirit imparting faith in the lives of the OT vs. NT heirs of Faith.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello Nathaniel,

Sorry for the brevity of this response, I will try to respond in more detail later because I'm about to take a 6 hour road trip. It's not so much the process by which we enter into salvation as our positional standing in which we receive and experience God's salvation. I see the Spirit in a sense as the conduit by which we receive all of God's life (especially eternal life), blessings, wisdom, and power without which the Christian life would be immesurably cheapened. And if you read again my post about this "new thing" that Jesus promised explicitly regarding the Spirit I believe that it is the manner in which the Spirit become the very empowering will of God in our lives. Without the Spirit we do not receive grace. I have done another post somewhere where I showed that the power of the Spirit = grace. Grace is power, or the means by which we are granted power. As God said to Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakeness". Perhaps ponder on that, and I will return once I'm done with my trip. Personally my identity in Christ is defined by the moment I realized the power of the Spirit in my life.

Gdo Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

I am not trying to discount your theology, but the promise of eternal life was promised in the OT also. And no, we do not have it as of yet. But the grace of God, manifested through the Spirit of God, is what leads us to that eternal life.

The promise of eternal life was never interpreted as such by the Jews of the OT. Promises were seen as temporal in nature. Land, defeat of enemies, peace and tranquility in THIS world. It is only Christian appropriation and re-interpretation of the OT in line with Jesus and the Apostles' teachings where we see that the Promise is spiritual and is eternal life. For the righteous of the OT, there was no "eternal life" promised until AFTER the New Covenant was formulated. It's terms were retroactive - and thus, the winnowing of hell. While there are several verses in the entire "Protestant compilation" of the OT that might insinuate a resurrection after death, it is difficult to tell whether this is just a re-animation to life here on earth again or a shadow of heaven (how we would interpret such verses as from Ezekiel 37)

Tit 1:1-3 "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began 3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;"

Agree. As explained above. The Apostles were Jews. They did not understand "eternal life" as WE do until AFTER the resurrection!!! It is only that cognitive dissonance forced upon the Apostles did they begin to understand that what they HAD been taught had fallen SHORT of the Promise and its meaning. Who the Messiah was and what He promised. The promise was given before the ages - that was the intent of allowing Adam to falter. However, no one reads the mind of God and what He had planned for us until the WORD HIMSELF told us these things...

I think the best example we can know is that there is recorded in history that some believed in eternal life, and some, like the Sadducee's, did not believe in eternal life.

The Pharisees' belief in life after death was NOT the same as OUR life after death. The Pharisees saw life after death as a continuation of this life, not an intimate UNION WITH GOD HIMSELF! Not a complete change of our nature to one that shared in the divine nature. Not that God Himself would abide in us. And of course, Pharisaical belief was based upon Rabbinical interpretations of Scriptures that were not in agreement with other elements of Judaism at the time. In other words, life after death was a theological question of uncertainty, not part and parcel of the Jewish faith (as it is for us)

I will have to agree, if it is this that you are saying, that the work of the Spirit in the NT believers is to keep that promise of eternal life constantly before our eyes. That was definitely something that they did not have in the OT.

Yes, but again, I would have to say even the notion was different. Martha expresses her belief of a resurrection at the end of days. Is she typical? We don't really know. It's unlikely. And life in heaven? It would be presumed that life in heaven (in their minds) would just be a continuation of life as here. Even the notion of being married to the same woman (as the Saduccees note with Jesus while ridiculing the idea that the Pharisees no doubt taught)

Regards

 

[Nathan]

The Pharisees' belief in life after death was NOT the same as OUR life after death. The Pharisees saw life after death as a continuation of this life, not an intimate UNION WITH GOD HIMSELF! Not a complete change of our nature to one that shared in the divine nature. Not that God Himself would abide in us. And of course, Pharisaical belief was based upon Rabbinical interpretations of Scriptures that were not in agreement with other elements of Judaism at the time. In other words, life after death was a theological question of uncertainty, not part and parcel of the Jewish faith (as it is for us)

Yes. I whole heartedly agree with this. I think its just a matter of what side of the tree each of us are standing on in regards to how we are describing it.

But even though our belief in eternal life is present and real in a believers life, it is not what is the focus of salvation. The focus of salvation is an ability to live righteously before God, to have the relationship that Adam had in the beginning. And to that end, this is precisely what faith rested on. It is shown forth by the sheer explanation of when Andrew ran and told his brother Simon(Peter), that they had found the Messiah.

In their minds the Messiah was the one who would set up rule and reign over the "promised" land, who would dispel all evil from it, and He would be their God, and they would be His people. A Leader, a King, A God that dwelt with man. That was the true promise that they had always looked for. It was "watered" down throughout the ages leading up to Christ coming. It had gotten to the point where they looked for the Messiah to come and set up the kingdom on this earth. As know by the disciples constant question of when He was going to do it.

But we know from OT history that the "fathers" of faith sought the "eternal" home. Where God would be in the midst of them. Where God would be the King. Where God would build the City. That is what they sought. It was misinterpreted and taught through the ages that the promises were "land" and "kingship" of a physical and "here and now" sense.

In other words, just as we have done with the Gospel promises made by Christ Himself through the ages since He was here on earth. We, like them, have taken them to mean something completely different. To the point of which we are not even looking for a Leader or King to rule over us. It is blatantly shown forth in the sickening rebuke that Christ gave to the church at Laodicea. He "counsels" with them to get gold, white clothes, and salve. But in their disbelief of their 'supposed' leader and king counseling them, they think they have it all figured out. They do not need anyone to give them anything. They think they have it all already.

And so it was with the people of old. They came to the point where they thought they "had it all", they were "children of Abraham". They just were waiting till some guy was going to come and give them back everything that they thought was promised to them. So in that regards, yes, they had lost the "faith" of their fathers. They had "forsaken" the promises of God. They had "abandoned" the promises of eternal life with God.

And so it goes today. And so the promise that God made in giving the new covenant, when He said that He would no longer rely on individuals teaching others the promises of God, but He would be their personal teacher. So yes, that is the difference of the OT and NT.

 

[Nathan]

Hello Nathaniel,

Sorry for the brevity of this response, I will try to respond in more detail later because I'm about to take a 6 hour road trip. It's not so much the process by which we enter into salvation as our positional standing in which we receive and experience God's salvation. I see the Spirit in a sense as the conduit by which we receive all of God's life (especially eternal life), blessings, wisdom, and power without which the Christian life would be immesurably cheapened. And if you read again my post about this "new thing" that Jesus promised explicitly regarding the Spirit I believe that it is the manner in which the Spirit become the very empowering will of God in our lives. Without the Spirit we do not receive grace. I have done another post somewhere where I showed that the power of the Spirit = grace. Grace is power, or the means by which we are granted power. As God said to Paul "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakeness". Perhaps ponder on that, and I will return once I'm done with my trip. Personally my identity in Christ is defined by the moment I realized the power of the Spirit in my life.

Gdo Bless,

~Josh

Hey Josh, you can call me nathan if you like.

I really do understand what you are saying. But we only "experience" Salvation by faith. There is nothing more right now that we have. We are saved through faith, guarded through faith, grow through faith, and live by faith. We do experience "Salvation"(Jesus) by faith, through the renewing of our minds; and the fact that God has taken the old heart of sin and destitute wickedness, and placed in the heart that longs for the things of God. Just like Christ longed for the things of God the Father.

Think about it this way. Did Christ have to receive the Spirit?

Ac 10:34-38 "So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

Ok, so do not think that I am about to go into a discourse of false teaching that Jesus was not fully God as He was fully man. But this was done so that we would understand what His work in us is like. Jesus put forth the example of what we were to follow in. So did He have to have the Spirit come upon Him? Yes. He had to. And it is precisely why He said it was a must that He returns to the Throne of God so that the Spirit can come back to us believers.

The Spirit does not become the "empowering" will in our lives, but He does empower us to do God's will. Is that double talk? No. Let me explain.

Jesus had a pure heart. He had no sin, He was eternal; He did not receive a sinless state after having the Spirit upon Him, and He did not receive eternal life after the Spirit came upon Him. But, just like us, He had to have the Spirit of God to receive His power. Not to receive anything else, just the power and ability to do that which was already in His heart.

Catching this? People think that they will somehow miraculously quit sinning and start doing God's will when they "believe". While the miraculous thing is that God does spiritual surgery on us in an instant, He does not then make us into a robot. What happens at the new birth is we are given a new nature. A new creation. The old sick and wicked heart passed away. We were given a new heart with God's law written on it to walk in His way. This is now our desire, if indeed we are Christs...

But, the ability to do those things in our hearts we do not have in and of ourselves. We must have the Spirit of God empowering us to do them. God does not just 'dump' everything into us at one time. It is a walk of faith. It has always been a walk of faith. The Spirits role is to give us faith period. When we act in this faith, we allow God to work through us. If we say that we are the ones doing the work, because we have been given the power to do so, we deceive ourselves. We put ourselves in the place of God. The Spirit empowers us to OBEY. That is it. When we obey, walk by faith, the power of God is manifested by the Spirit in our lives.

Here is the crux of the issue. We 'think' that God gives us 'eternal life' here and now. We 'think' that the Spirit's job is to give us power to do things. We 'think' that because we believed, then that 'sealed the deal' and there is nothing more after that.

Now do not think that I am saying we do anything to earn, payback, or inherit eternal life. We do not. But our faith is what we will one day trade in for eternal life. We do not have it as of yet. We can be sure of it because of the working power of God in our lives through the Spirit. But the problem we see is that there is a great many that have falsely believed that the Spirit "seals" them, locks them in, and then God throws away the key and He cannot/will-not go back on His 'promise'.

They are believing in a false promise. The promise God made was;

1) Give us a new heart. One that desires the things of God, just like it was in the beginning. Just like before the fall. The new heart comes from the shedding of Christs eternal blood, and therefore removes all sin from us.

2) He gives us the Holy Spirit. The Spirit's work in our lives is to bring the knowledge and wisdom of God to us so that we might walk in faith.

3) He promises us that one day He will redeem the whole earth, all creation, and do away with all traces of sin and wickedness in the world. What that will do will enable us to walk before Him without temptation and therefore without sin. Because we have been given a new heart we will not desire sin anymore.

What it sounds like, Josh, is that you are trying to put too much emphasis on the Spirits role in your life, and not enough emphasis on your own role. What happens is that we do not grow when we do that. We think, "God will grow me and make me a grown up one day when He is ready too". We sit around and become chubby little infants that are not able to digest real food.

Ok, so whats wrong with that? I mean...were saved right? Wooohooo...who cares about eating real food, let me sit around all day, I'll take the milk...

Well, the sad part is that that is not the true heart of a believer who has been born again. How do I know this? God says so. Just like Jesus desired to do God's will, so to the new heart of a born again believer desires to do God's will. And not only does it desire it, it knows what it is. So we are without excuse. That is the role of the Spirit. If any man does not have the Spirit, he is not God's. Because the Spirit brings to us the wisdom and will of God and works through those who are obedient. Its not a 'maybe' thing. Its a fact.

 

[Elijah674]

Just one more thought on these below ones, while only looking at the positives of these Truths in Heb. 6:1-5. When one has been documented as being made a partaker of the Holy Ghost as these ones have, the danger of verse 6 comes into question. God is telling us that these ones can become apostates & be lost, or is He just using rubber bullets so to speak?

The bottom/line as I view my 'long' ( ;) ) past history is that this false OSAS teaching has been repeated over & over again with even these real Born Again ones. And the problem is, is that they say to theirselves.. what more do I need? I am Born Again, I have the Spirit + all the rest of God's Requirements as in the OT Sanctuary, they offer the sacrifice only & instead of intering into Christ, they go on back home in ignorance.

--Elijah

Heb.6

[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[3] And this will we do, if God permit.
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,