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Differences in the giving of the Holy Spirit between the OT/NT?

I am a Computer Science major, and an IT guy by profession, and I find an analogy akin to my thoughts on this matter which may help you understand what I'm trying to say. I learned when I started studying algorithms (predefined patterns of code to calculate or accomplish some result - such as say a sorting algorithm) that you can write (as per my example) a "sorting" algorithm to take 1,000 numbers in random order and step through each one and compare the two and swap each number in the right direction until the 1,000 numbers are organized in ascending or descending order. A neat trick I learned is that for those algorithms that are notoriously hard to write you can write a partly working algortihm that can more simply sort (but not completely sort - it fails at some point to complete it correctly), say, 90% of the numbers in correct order - but there will be a remaining 10% of the numbers roughly dispersed through the (now mostly sorted) list of 1,000 numbers that are then still out of order. Sometimes we learned that in the real world (depending on the application) this may be "good enough", if you only needed to see the main trend (and not the outliers) of the number values, but still you leave 10% unaccounted for/unsorted/unfinished. Similarly, I have found that by practical experience that even a basic yet naive/not-fully-matured understanding of the Bible's truths can indeed overlap and agree with the convictions of someone who has chewed on the meat of the Word and has a developed understanding of God's Word for a while (maybe they have even up to "90%" [as per my anaology] the same understanding on certain issues - often less though), but only up to a point, and then at some point they start to diverge in their understanding. I would say that between any two Christian denominations this overlap of belief exists up to a point and then they begin to diverge in their understanding. Sometimes we think that the other group would not even have such misunderstandings if they had the right foundation in doctrine in the first place (of course, though, they all say that ). Anyway...
:D LOL.

As I was reading this, I was thinking....huh??. lol. No offense. But think about it. I understand, to an extent lol, what you are saying. But we complicate things sometimes in our efforts to make them simple. While an algorithm might take those numbers and arrange them for you; you still have to spend time and thought in making the code. Now, take those with the simplistic approach. They take the number 1 and put it first or last, then they take the number 2 and do the same, so on and so on. Does it take time? Lets see.

1000 numbers. Lets take the numbers 1-10 in random order and see how long it takes. But, of course, it would indeed take longer than what you would think, because you are looking through 1000 numbers instead of just 10. But now, think about it, if you scan the number list, to see the highest number, put it first or last, then fill in the rest...or are there 'missing' numbers? Ahh...now thats a different ball game, but still, the man or woman who does not understand or comprehend algorithms would simply sit down and put it in order one by one. Taking what? An hour? lol. How long did it take you to develop the code? You know I am just 'joshing' :D you right? lol
 
Nothing personal, just replying to the [2 posts].

So forums get side/tracked, huh? Even to the point of a Highly Spiritual Truth. Eccl. 3:15
(who cares if pie/r/square is 22/7?)

And the Lord's TIME, was it wasted or not?

--Elijah
 
:D LOL.

As I was reading this, I was thinking....huh??. lol. No offense. But think about it. I understand, to an extent lol, what you are saying. But we complicate things sometimes in our efforts to make them simple. While an algorithm might take those numbers and arrange them for you; you still have to spend time and thought in making the code. Now, take those with the simplistic approach. They take the number 1 and put it first or last, then they take the number 2 and do the same, so on and so on. Does it take time? Lets see.

1000 numbers. Lets take the numbers 1-10 in random order and see how long it takes. But, of course, it would indeed take longer than what you would think, because you are looking through 1000 numbers instead of just 10. But now, think about it, if you scan the number list, to see the highest number, put it first or last, then fill in the rest...or are there 'missing' numbers? Ahh...now thats a different ball game, but still, the man or woman who does not understand or comprehend algorithms would simply sit down and put it in order one by one. Taking what? An hour? lol. How long did it take you to develop the code? You know I am just 'joshing' :D you right? lol

Haha. Figures you would go right for my computer science analogy. :D I was relating it because of the slightly more abstract/general idea of how things can overlap (think: Ven Diagram), but not be completely equivalent in all areas (like for example I've found myself agreeing with certain persons on this thread over and over on certain doctrines, as if they were on a roll, and I begin to think we believe the exact same things but then I eventually discover that they diverge on some certain, although sometimes small, scriptural understanding such as whether the eucharist "transsubstantiates", whether water baptism saves, whether you sprinkle or immerse in water, or whether Jesus is God or not etc. - which all come from different understandings of Scripture). I really think my "building" analogy about how pieces seem to fit together for a while until the very end was more clear, because I've done that when building a bookshelf before! :) I put the book shelf together and even got almost to the last step only to discover that I had attached the bottom piece up side down even though it fit perfectly like it was! lol. Odd how things seem to fit, but aren't necessarily right some times.

As another example, I used to think for a while based on Scriptures that since "God is Spirit" and due to Jesus being refered to (in the Trinity) as being the "Spirit of Christ" that it meant that Jesus in his glorified state is now completely Spirit (which as God, this made perfect sense as a default assumption). I couldn't comprehend Jesus still being in flesh (although glorified) and still having the nail holes in his body [he was too "holy" for that - being God and all, who is spirit - ...I thought] and it even seemed to fit lots of scriptures (and I thought this way for a long time, and not like its a huge doctrine but it can lead you down slightly miscalculated ways of thought) until one day my Dad forced the point upon me that Jesus is still revealed as the 'Son of Man' in Daniel when he comes back again. Bang! I realized I had flipped the bottom piece in the wrong direction! I needed to reconstruct/realign my former ideas to fit the new revelation/realization. It didn't seriously affect my other theological ideas (that is, until I got into a discussion of Jesus' nature, which led to the discussion between my dad and I) and it even seemed to fit some aspects (thus I could agree with others on certain points) of Christ's glorified state (but not all aspects - and that's the point), but I had missed a small but important detail. Essentially the prior view I held, I realized, was "semi-docetic" (full doceticism being a Gnostic heresy - and yet it seemed such an innocent and small detail for the longest time!). And afterward it made even more sense and I had a yet clearer understanding of the idea. You unfortunately do not learn most of these deeper theological things in more traditional Baptist Churches.

I could relate to you story after story like that of every idea that I have "matured", tested, or changed to conform with Scriptural proof before. Some theological ideas just "work" and get you by (we certainly didn't understand everything correctly when we had just been saved, did we? we had to learn the meat over time) for a while until, or "unless" (assuming you seek better answers about the truth at all), you really examine it.

P.S. My computer sorting algorithm idea was meant to convey that, but alas.... it is flawed. :D For the record, I was refering to a cool trick I would never have thought of (in the "purist" coding techniques you are normally bred with in a CIS curiculum) which one of my professors taught our class of how to write intentionally broken code algorithms which miraculously happen to work well for sorting between 60%-90% of a number array correctly before finishing. Then sorting the remaining percentage of those still distributed randomly through the now mostly sorted array becomes a trivial exercise of writing a simpler algorithm. I liked this approach because often on homework my plea would be, "well, it mostly works...". :D

God Bless,

~Josh
 
So how do my points above relate to this topic? My point about being able to "agree with others on certain points" (but only up to a point) because of a misunderstading happened to me in my original thread which I built this OP off of. Joe (francis) and I agreed on a lot of things until we got real deep into "How does the Spirit indwell?", "Can he leave?", "What really is the new man?" and I realized that I had some conceptions of a "totally completed" new man, as if Christ were the new man itself (which made sense for a positional justification and imputation standpoint), but I had misunderstood 2 Cor. 5:17 and it ultimately led to to (what TanNinety revealed) was an almost dualistic/gnostic conception of two natures the old man (the flesh) and the new man (a "perfect" untainted entity) in us that we choose between. This accounted for aspects of Romans 7 (which even TanNinety agreed that Paul could be mistaken for gnostic claims there - if not evaluated in context - see these posts here*, here**, and here*** where we discussed this) but ultimately confused me on understanding the new nature.

Its things like that. And I argue that it is still difficult to understand the war of the Spirit and the Flesh in us, and the realities of Romans 7 and Romans 8 together. Many a Christian has had a difference in theology over those matters. But when I misunderstand something, I generally am aware of it (even if I don't know the correct alternative answer) and thus I seek to rectify that understanding until it makes sense and fits with the rest of Scripture. I've found the experience consistent over and over, when I learn something new and it corrects an older idea I one had. One of these days I think I'm just going to write a systematic theology book. :D It's in my nature to study things like this.

Anyway, I am still plugging away at studying this topic. I'll let you know when I have any new significant "thought developments", and in the mean time I will pray for undrestanding and read the Scriptures for what they say and hope God will grant me the blessing of more clearly understanding his Word of Truth.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
You know I was just playing with you. I am still working through the thoughts you have. I have not had much time to contemplate them today, but I will. I just thought I would :poke you a little.
 
Nothing personal, just replying to the [2 posts].

So forums get side/tracked, huh? Even to the point of a Highly Spiritual Truth. Eccl. 3:15
(who cares if pie/r/square is 22/7?)

And the Lord's TIME, was it wasted or not?

--Elijah

Yea...things do get side tracked sometimes. I dunno if it is complete side track though. It is a good thing to sit back and laugh sometimes. I am taken back to the point in which we see the Lord first work a miracle. He was sitting at a wedding feast, and we have no idea of who's it was. But when He saw a need to be fulfilled, He 'worked', other than that He said Himself that His time had not yet come.

Sometimes in the middle of discussions it can be nice to sit back and 'break up the 'monotony'. I think that if Josh was offended, or thought it unnecessary, then seeing how it is his thread, he would delete my comments. It is his conversation, and I am doing the same thing that I would if I were at his house with him sitting down and talking about these kinds of things. Then after a little 'play', we would get back on track and discus the 'deep' things some more.

Thats my take on it. A waste of time? Nah. Anytime spent in fellowship with other brothers in Christ is never a waste of time. After all;

Ecc 3:12-13 "I perceived that there is nothing better for them than to be joyful and to do good as long as they live; also that everyone should eat and drink and take pleasure in all his toil--this is God's gift to man."
 
I could relate to you story after story like that of every idea that I have "matured", tested, or changed to conform with Scriptural proof before. Some theological ideas just "work" and get you by (we certainly didn't understand everything correctly when we had just been saved, did we? we had to learn the meat over time) for a while until, or "unless" (assuming you seek better answers about the truth at all), you really examine it.

Yes. It is the times when I think I have "matured" the most, that I find myself the furthest from maturity. It is the times when I find myself trusting God the most, that I find myself as content as an old man in a rocking chair on the front porch of his house looks. After all, faith is what we are all "maturing" up into. And faith indeed comes via the Holy Spirit into our lives.
 
But when I misunderstand something, I generally am aware of it (even if I don't know the correct alternative answer) and thus I seek to rectify that understanding until it makes sense and fits with the rest of Scripture.

This is purity in its truest form!!! This is 'one' of the roles of the Spirit. It is when we try and "force" faith upon ourselves that we get into trouble. We do not like the idea of 'not knowing' something, so we get hard headed, and can even get hard hearted. While it is not a good feeling to have, that of being unsure of what you originally thought something to be, it is a good feeling to know that God is in control and usually it means He is wanting to show you something different.
 
Hi Nathaniel,

Take all the time you need. I'm going to take a break for a while. Believe it or not I'm normally the "quiet mod", meaning I normally go weeks at a time without posting here and just pop my head in every once in a while. Starting about two weeks ago when you started your Hebrews thread I kinda got back into it a for a while. But now I will retract into my crab shell for a while and take a breather, read my Bible, and maybe even go outside and get some sun (enjoy something practical and not always sit in my chair "theologizing"). I do think you have interjected some necessary wisdom by saying that we sometimes just need to rely on the Spirit that is in us.

Yeah, I do think this is an important topic and a big one at that, but I don't want to "overwork" myself because (oddly) I find myself stressed out sometimes when I try to do big theological studies, because I know they are going to take a lot of time and effort (and especially if I am going to have to make a case to others about it). Maybe I'll take a simpler approach this time and let God lead me as He may. I'll stay in touch though.

P.S. Hmmm... maybe I should hang out more in the humor & jokes section to lighten up a bit. ;)

God Bless,

~Josh
 
We do not like the idea of 'not knowing' something, so we get hard headed, and can even get hard hearted. While it is not a good feeling to have, that of being unsure of what you originally thought something to be, it is a good feeling to know that God is in control and usually it means He is wanting to show you something different.

Indeed. This is true. It is that uncomfortableness of "not knowing" which drives me to study as much as I do, but as I said it can even be stressful when trying to do this under my own efforts, and as you say here we can even get hard-headed and hard-hearted - which is why I also have to keep myself in check to make sure I don't go off into the "theological weeds" with my ideas and think up something entirely unscriptural. I find it is a balance, but I should throw any of my anxieties upon God about this matter and ask him that he would reveal true knowledge to me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
I HIGHLY sugest getting outside. lol. Words of wisdom;

Ecc 12:8-13 "Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity. Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with great care. The Preacher sought to find words of delight, and uprightly he wrote words of truth. The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd. My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."
 
I HIGHLY sugest getting outside. lol. Words of wisdom;

Ecc 12:8-13 "Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity. Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge, weighing and studying and arranging many proverbs with great care. The Preacher sought to find words of delight, and uprightly he wrote words of truth. The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd. My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."

Hi Forum: Surely the rest of the verse is 'RELAXING' also huh?
Let me just add that in years past, I had found non/Christian life a heavy taskmaster.

[12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. (Mark 6:31)

[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

--Elijah

 
Hi Forum: Surely the rest of the verse is 'RELAXING' also huh?
Let me just add that in years past, I had found non/Christian life a heavy taskmaster.

Very much so!!! Very relaxing. The non-'Christ following' life is extremely heavy.

Mat 11:29-30 "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
 
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