Differences in the giving of the Holy Spirit between the OT/NT?

[francisdesales]

But even though our belief in eternal life is present and real in a believers life, it is not what is the focus of salvation. The focus of salvation is an ability to live righteously before God, to have the relationship that Adam had in the beginning. And to that end, this is precisely what faith rested on. It is shown forth by the sheer explanation of when Andrew ran and told his brother Simon(Peter), that they had found the Messiah.

In their minds the Messiah was the one who would set up rule and reign over the "promised" land, who would dispel all evil from it, and He would be their God, and they would be His people. A Leader, a King, A God that dwelt with man. That was the true promise that they had always looked for. It was "watered" down throughout the ages leading up to Christ coming. It had gotten to the point where they looked for the Messiah to come and set up the kingdom on this earth. As know by the disciples constant question of when He was going to do it.

I will have to respectfully disagree if you are saying that the Messiah, in the eyes of Andrew and Peter, was an expectation of Judaism that GOD IN THE FLESH had arrived!!! This is just beyond any Jewish expectation before the Resurrection... And I would say that "watered down" is an interesting point of view, since the OT seems to do just the opposite!!! The promise was initially interpreted as temporal and only LATER Judaism sees a more spiritual component of the Promise (esp. after the destruction of Israel and Judea...). With time, Judaism began to gradually recognize the TRUTH, not water it down...

But we know from OT history that the "fathers" of faith sought the "eternal" home.

That is PAUL saying that, not the fathers... You are reading Paul putting his Christian interpretations into the minds of Abraham and Isaac. These Patriarchs knew the promise was to their children to receive temporal peace and land and freedom from fear on this earth.

Where God would be in the midst of them. Where God would be the King. Where God would build the City. That is what they sought. It was misinterpreted and taught through the ages that the promises were "land" and "kingship" of a physical and "here and now" sense.

This is Christian interpretation. I am not disagreeing with it, I am Christian. However, a Jew reading the Bible in 1000 BC - 5 BC would not take from the Scriptures such a promise. It is only with CHRIST do we receive the FULL meaning of the shadows of what came before. Sacrifices pointing to the one Perfect Sacrifice, for example.

In other words, just as we have done with the Gospel promises made by Christ Himself through the ages since He was here on earth. We, like them, have taken them to mean something completely different. To the point of which we are not even looking for a Leader or King to rule over us. It is blatantly shown forth in the sickening rebuke that Christ gave to the church at Laodicea. He "counsels" with them to get gold, white clothes, and salve. But in their disbelief of their 'supposed' leader and king counseling them, they think they have it all figured out. They do not need anyone to give them anything. They think they have it all already.

Men are still wounded creatures... They think they have things "figured out", even Christians...

And so it was with the people of old. They came to the point where they thought they "had it all", they were "children of Abraham". They just were waiting till some guy was going to come and give them back everything that they thought was promised to them. So in that regards, yes, they had lost the "faith" of their fathers. They had "forsaken" the promises of God. They had "abandoned" the promises of eternal life with God.

Please point to me these Promises of eternal life read from the Jewish point of view, without considering the Christian point of view, in other words without using the words of the Apostes or Jesus to bolster your interpretations.

And so it goes today. And so the promise that God made in giving the new covenant, when He said that He would no longer rely on individuals teaching others the promises of God, but He would be their personal teacher. So yes, that is the difference of the OT and NT.

That is a misinterpretation of Scriptures. If this were true (we don't need teachers), then the Apostles' teachings and the Bible is a big waste of time - we should just rely on "the Spirit" to teach us... The citation from 1 John that so many use to bolster that false idea is clearly refering to false prophets in the midst of John's communities. The Church doesn't need to hear these false prophets - they have ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT BY JOHN, IN PERSON!!! And the letter itself tells us that John doesn't believe your point of view by the very letter ITSELF!!! WHY IS JOHN WRITING TO THEM, THEN???

Regards

 

[Nathan]

The bottom/line as I view my 'long' ( ;) ) past history is that this false OSAS teaching has been repeated over & over again with even these real Born Again ones. And the problem is, is that they say to theirselves.. what more do I need? I am Born Again, I have the Spirit + all the rest of God's Requirements as in the OT Sanctuary, they offer the sacrifice only & instead of intering into Christ, they go on back home in ignorance.

This is the whole of the matter! This is why I am passionate about this. It is not just an debate or argument to me. There are those who are going to perish because of willful ignorance about how the Spirit works in the lives of the believer.

God does not force on us Salvation(Jesus the Christ) any more than He did to the OT saints...but this is key right here...He does not require any less either. Obedience is, and always has been, the way to eternal life. The work of the Spirit is, and always has been; to bring faith to the 'group' as in the case of OT saints, and to bring faith to the individual as in our case. We cannot rationalize this away because we have a different working of the Spirit in our lives. It really is this simple. We must not make it complex. God has poured out His Spirit on ALL flesh so that none will have excuse.

 

[Nathan]

I do not normally do this. But for the sake of the truth I have to deal with each of your statements individually instead of as a whole. I find it rather hard to read along when people do this, and I also find that it personalizes the thread into a disagreement between two people and not the ideas behind it.

But in an effort to make things seem clear and concise, I will refer to each of your statements individually.

I will have to respectfully disagree if you are saying that the Messiah, in the eyes of Andrew and Peter, was an expectation of Judaism that GOD IN THE FLESH had arrived!!! This is just beyond any Jewish expectation before the Resurrection... And I would say that "watered down" is an interesting point of view, since the OT seems to do just the opposite!!! The promise was initially interpreted as temporal and only LATER Judaism sees a more spiritual component of the Promise (esp. after the destruction of Israel and Judea...). With time, Judaism began to gradually recognize the TRUTH, not water it down...

Yes. Andrew believed that Jesus, the Messiah as he called Him, was indeed the Son of God. Those who were waiting for Him, those who were looking to see Him, knew exactly who He was. There were very few who believed He was indeed the promised one. And the ones who did not believe were the ones who were the ones who would always scoff when He declared He was God.

No, the promise was considered eternal before it was considered temporal. You can argue that it is a "Christan" point of view by taking the passages out of Hebrews to prove the point, but the fact remains that the passages are indeed in a letter addressed to Hebrews....not Gentiles....

The water down belief has a direct relation because of the faithlessness that Jesus found among His people. Faith had over the years slowly dwindled down to a trickle, then all but dried up when Jesus came. We see it in the very fact that the ones who were looked upon as being the wisest and most notable among the seed of Abraham, the ones who were the priests in the Temple, they are the very ones who had the hardest of hearts and the blindest of eyes to who Jesus was. Yes, the promises were indeed watered down through the generations. Just like it is today.

That is PAUL saying that, not the fathers... You are reading Paul putting his Christian interpretations into the minds of Abraham and Isaac. These Patriarchs knew the promise was to their children to receive temporal peace and land and freedom from fear on this earth.

This is Christian interpretation. I am not disagreeing with it, I am Christian. However, a Jew reading the Bible in 1000 BC - 5 BC would not take from the Scriptures such a promise. It is only with CHRIST do we receive the FULL meaning of the shadows of what came before. Sacrifices pointing to the one Perfect Sacrifice, for example.

Christian interpretation simply means "the interpretation of one who follows Christ". Hey...if thats the case, then yes, I will go with that interpretation over one that comes from one not following Christ. Although the OT saints did not know who the Christ would be, and exactly when He would come. Although they did not understand the full measure of the stature of Him, they did believe that He would come, and they did believe in an eternal home and kingdom with Him. You may choose to believe that they did not believe it. You may choose to call out the motives of some people, and yet rely on the plain words of others. I choose to take the whole counsel of God's Word into consideration. No offense intended.

Yes, we do now see in part, what the fullness of Christ is. But thats just it, we see in part. We cannot even say we know the fullness here and now. That which is perfect has not yet come again. He will, and then we will know. This is why it all depends on faith. Faith is not seen. It is assurance and confidence, but it is not full knowledge.

Men are still wounded creatures... They think they have things "figured out", even Christians...

2 Pe 1:3-4 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

What part of ALL THINGS are we lacking?

2 Co 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

What part of "new" is 'still wounded'? When God created us anew in Christ, did He create us with a wounded heart?

Please point to me these Promises of eternal life read from the Jewish point of view, without considering the Christian point of view, in other words without using the words of the Apostes or Jesus to bolster your interpretations.

So Jesus did not know, or He was 'mistaken' about what the early saints believed? Are we talking about the same Jesus here? Your telling me, that I cannot be sure of what my Lord says, that He was looking at things from a skewed point of view??? Surely not!!!

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad"

That is a misinterpretation of Scriptures. If this were true (we don't need teachers), then the Apostles' teachings and the Bible is a big waste of time - we should just rely on "the Spirit" to teach us... The citation from 1 John that so many use to bolster that false idea is clearly refering to false prophets in the midst of John's communities. The Church doesn't need to hear these false prophets - they have ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT BY JOHN, IN PERSON!!! And the letter itself tells us that John doesn't believe your point of view by the very letter ITSELF!!! WHY IS JOHN WRITING TO THEM, THEN???

We can argue misinterpretation of Scriptures all day long. People have done it for centuries. We do not need man to teach us the things of God. This is true. God can, and will, and has, by His Spirit, taught many people the things of Himself. No, John is not referring to false prophets when he makes the statement. He is simply reiterating what his LORD had told him already.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Did you catch that? The Spirit would teach them all things...AND bring to their remembrance that which they heard personally from the Lord while He was here on earth. Two separate things. Or, are you going to argue again that Christ did not know what He was saying when He said this?




1 John 3:1-10 "See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."

The reason for the Holy Spirit dwelling in the life of a believer is to keep the faith constantly before our eyes. It was not that way in the OT, they had to go to the Temple to really get a grasp of who God was. We now have the teacher inside of us. It does us well to not just look at the teacher and turn around and walk away. We should fixate our eyes on Him and let Him lead us into eternal life.

 

[Nathan]

I think that all this can best be summed up by the 9th chapter of Hebrews. In the OT people would have to go to the temple, continually offering sacrifices. And by having to do that they had a constant reminder of sins before them. They were constantly 'under a burden' of the law, food, drink, washings, regulations of the body... They were constantly having to offer sacrifices for sins that it was all they did. They were 'confined' under sin by the law.

They had prophets who God would put His Spirit into in order to speak to the people. They received words of faith by these prophets, but then would go back to the mundane life of work and sacrifices. Was there a purpose? Yes, it was to show the depravity of mankind. The utter wickedness of man. The very fact that the people would year after year offer sacrifices, blood continually running out of the temple, there was a reminder of the Holiness of God and the wickedness of man.

If the people believed for a minute that they were without sin, then there was no need to offer sacrifices for their sins. But God did not want them to forget who they are and who He is. So the Spirits work in their lives was very limited.

But we have the Spirit upon us. Jesus once and for all offered a perfect sacrifice for sins. What does this mean to us? We now have a clear conscience. A pure hear and mind to serve the living God without fear. The Spirits role in our lives now is to purify our minds, by continually delivering to us the word of faith. Christ in us. We now are the temple. The sacrifice has been made. Do we turn and go out? No. We continue on through the temple. We are continually, not yearly, but continually being transformed.

In the old temple they came and left. Their sins would weigh upon them and it caused strife and grief. Now we have the constant reminder that sin has been taken care of. And is it any different for us than them? No. The same way they had faith that God was going to forgive them of their sins by their offering of sacrifices, we too have faith that God is forgiving us of our sins by the sacrifice of Jesus. Now we have a clear conscience. We can serve God in love, not fear. This is what He has wanted from the beginning, and when He comes again it will be perfected for all time.

This is not complicated. There is no 'magic' involved. There is nothing 'hidden' about what the Spirits role is in our lives today, and it has been made known for all what the Spirits role was for them back then. There is much to say about this but it would be going off on a tangent and not be applicable to the topic at hand. The Spirits role in our lives now, concerning Salvation, is to purify our minds day by day to serve the living God. This is done through faith. And when He comes again, He will reward the faithful from all generations with eternal life and a place in the kingdom of heaven. There, forever more, we will serve the King in complete righteousness. There will be no more sin, no more temptation, no more wickedness, no more of anything bad. It will be a pure place. The Spirits role is to give us a glimpse of this so we can continue on in our faith until then.

Again, Hebrews 9 and 10 describes this beautifully.

 

[cyberjosh]

Alright! To finally get back to this. I am going back to respond to the posts I said I would in more detail.

To the Question;

Salvation does not come from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Salvation comes from faith. Faith leads us to grace. Grace leads us to Salvation.

Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God..."

Tts 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people..."

Yes I do realize the role of faith in this, and I am considering now at what point the Spirit enters into the process. I have gathered several scriptures from the OT & NT which I will present when I am done with a "refactored" understanding of how the HS is involved in this process. One thing to note though also is the reality of the HS's work immediately prior to believing, as well, to convict the sinner of the truth of the Word of God. The Spirit does work on the heart to bring one to salvation, our part is to respond to what is shown us by the Spirit through faith and repentance and not to reject the HS (which is the unforgivable sin).

So I think a quick answer to your question, without going into extreme detail, is there is no difference in the work of the Spirit between the two. The Spirit is the one that leads us. Now the difference does reside in the fact that God choose people in the OT to put His Spirit into, who would then speak the "word" of God to people, so that they could receive Faith. Then through that faith they would eventually inherit the promises of God.

Now, in the day of "grace", God has chosen to 'pour' out His Spirit on ALL flesh. Therefore, ALL mankind has been given opportunity to receive faith. This 'outpouring' is through grace. So the only difference between the two is the simple fact that back then the Spirit was only poured out into certain individuals, who would proclaim the word to others...thereby ensuring the specific lineage of faith that would lead up to the coming Messiah. And when the Messiah was made known, when He came, the Spirit was poured out on all, so that no man would be without excuse of knowing the truth.

There in lies the difference. The role in the OT vs. NT is the same. The Spirit brings the truth of God to provide Faith to those who will believe. OT people had a specific line of saints that were indwelt who lead those who would believe. NT people have "no need of anyone to teach them" because they have the teacher residing in them.

I think that you bring to the foreground here, very clearly, one of the Spirit's major functions in that He is to convict us of sin, righteousness, and judgement and to help us recall the words of Jesus and know/be convicted of their truthfulness. This I think could be summed under the Spirit's teaching work. I however have also been looking at recently the other functions of the Spirit as well, such as being the paraclete, a baptizer, a sanctifier, and an empowerer. These things I will relate in more detail when I present the Scriptures I have been looking at from the OT & NT. The Spirit's work is multifaceted and this is what I am exploring.

People could be "children of God" in the OT through faith. And it is the same now days also. But, God has declared that in this "day" of grace, the Spirit of God residing in man is where the faith comes from. Why? There is the difference. It is a HUGE subject, but maybe I can boil it down.

All of the rules, laws, statutes, commands of God in the OT 'kept' the person with faith in line and focused on the Messiah who would come to bring Salvation. Those rules, laws, statutes, commands were given to the people through only those who were indwelt by the Spirit. The Spirit of God now does that in the life of a believer. He is available to ALL who would believe, but He 'keeps' the one who does have faith 'secure' by leading them and training them in righteousness. But in both cases it is all on the premise of faith.

Although this is not directly what I was trying to focus on, I do find this idea interesting. This is essentially the reality that the Spirit became the believer's internal guide/light by which our minds are illuminated to and directed to follow the law of God which is now placed in our hearts, and thus all believers know what God's will is through his law and the direction of the Spirit.

What we do know for a fact is that The Spirit of God did not dwell in ALL people with Faith in the OT. BUT we do know that ALL people with Faith today MUST have the Spirit of God in them for it to be real. In the grand scheme of things, because we are mere mortals and only see so far into the past and future, we do not really see the big picture even though we think we do sometimes

Ah, this "must" you mention is in fact much of what I am looking at, and which actually I think it is directly tied to the promise Jesus gave of "giving the Spirit" (which was a new thing, to give totally to all believers as a promise - in conjunction with the prophecy/promise in Ezekiel 36). Perhaps it does not directly affect our salvation, but it does become inseparable/coupled with it as a reality for all believers under the New Covenant. It is this fascinating fact that brings the Spirit's work so close to the matter of our salvation in the NT.

The teaching that the Spirit somehow 'miraculously' keeps us safe once we believe is not only false, but is very misleading in the work that the Spirit does indeed do. Yes, He does enable us to live righteously and soberly lives in this present time. But that comes through faith, which He constantly imparts to us through His teaching. It is always up to us to obey.

I totally agree.

And by making the work of the Spirit anything more than a simple leader and teacher negates our responsibility to follow. If He 'miraculously' imparts Salvation apart from obedience, then it really would not matter, literally, what we do after receiving faith.

Ah, but here you misunderstand my point. I am not referring to some 'miraculous' on-going work that the Spirit does for us (because on the contrary sanctification, which is the on-going work of the HS in us [1 Peter 1:2], is done on the basis of us initiating it by faith and taking the grace and power given to us by the HS to cleanse ourselves [2 Cor 7:1], thus our responsibility). Rather I am talking about something that the HS does at the time of our salvation (a one-time thing) on our behalf as part of God’s work to save us and join us to his Body of believers. Among these things that the HS does is baptize us when we first believe into the Body of Believers (1 Cor 12:13), and we are made to “drink” of the Spirit, who gives to us eternal life through Jesus. Also we are told that were were sealed (made God’s property, identified as His) by the HS upon believing, and that we were justified/sanctified by the HS when we believed: “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11); “God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13); and “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood” (1 Peter 1:2). I mention sanctification inasmuch as it relates to the one-time justification we receive through Christ.

I'm not necessarily trying to make any statements about some special new way of salvation in the NT. Rather I'm trying to look objectively at these new things that the Spirit seems to do at the time of (or just after) our salvation (as one-time workings/realities thenceforth). I have listed a few of them above. My questions is "What is this work?", and "Is it in fact new in the NT?" (I say for the majority of them, yes the work is new to the NT (for example the function of paraclete in the physical absence of Jesus), but for explainable reasons in God's dispensation of the New Covenant). I'm not looking for cop-outs on theology, only trying to understand the Scriptures as they stand.


[continued below]

 

[cyberjosh]

I am not trying to discount your theology, but the promise of eternal life was promised in the OT also. And no, we do not have it as of yet. But the grace of God, manifested through the Spirit of God, is what leads us to that eternal life.

Well as I said in a previous post, we do have an eschatalogically realized foretaste of eternal life. I can say more about this later with some scriptures and a quote from a NT theology book I have which discusses this.

Maybe the confusion is the 'new birth'? We are indeed born again by the Spirit of God. How? Can a man enter into his mothers womb and be born again that way? Not a chance. This is a inward birth. The birth where God removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Then we are transformed day by day by the renewing of our minds/spirit. This is where the Spirits work takes place. He enables us to conform to the desires that were birthed in our inner man, living them out in the flesh through the control of our renewed minds.

But wait a second, what you are describing is the process of sanctification that takes place after one has first believed. However Jesus is talking about something that happens immediatly upon/accompanying belief (which I detailed a bit in my last point at the bottom of the previous post). All believers are instantly born of the Spirit into new life when they believe unto salvation. Compare this to the other things that the Spirit also does right after/upon believing, as I mentioned above, about 1 Corinthians 12:13, etc. The new birth really is really the pivot point for what I have been asking about in this thread. I have an idea now about of how to adequately answer this question, and it comes from looking at Ezekiel 36 and the future promises of "giving the Spirit" (not to merely rest upon), but I want too study a little bit more before I present my findings.

It is not the idea that our soul/heart, is somehow taken 'hostage' by the Spirit of God. The seal is His abiding presence in our lives. It is a seal of ability and ownership. To say that the seal is some 'unbreakable' lock and chain is just not Biblically correct. The seal is a sign of authority. It has always been a sign of authority. When a man was to give absolute authority to another, he would do so with a seal. It was up to the person who the authority was given to, to use it. They were not forced to use it, in fact, if they wanted to, they could discard it.

I agree.

The Spirit does not become the "empowering" will in our lives, but He does empower us to do God's will.

That is essentially what I meant, pardon any semantic differences. If you care to look at it I have preached a series on sanctification and holiness before and I covered the operations of the Spirit in sanctifying and empowering us in those sermons (especially the second one). I wrote papers for both of those sermons to hand out to people to take home with them (so they would not have to take notes), and I have uploaded them onto my website. If you would like to look at them go to my website at Scholar of God Online Research and click on the Bible studies section and under “Papers” you should see my two part “Holiness Series”. The first one is “Being a people of One Thing”.

What happens at the new birth is we are given a new nature. A new creation. The old sick and wicked heart passed away. We were given a new heart with God's law written on it to walk in His way. This is now our desire, if indeed we are Christs...

It is this event of being given a new nature that the giving of the Spirit is closely tied to, and which I am studying in more depth right now in Ezekiel. It is particularly interesting that God promised the giving of His Spirit in close conjunction to giving us a new heart:

“26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” (Ezekiel 26:26-27)

What it sounds like, Josh, is that you are trying to put too much emphasis on the Spirits role in your life, and not enough emphasis on your own role.

Not at all! You must have misunderstood where I'm coming from (and it's understandably hard to convey points on forums sometimes). As you can see from my papers that I directed you to on my site, I understand very well the requirements of our sanctification and our role in them. I have no agenda in this study other than to understand the Scripture better when I read it. If I am told when I read NT passages about the Spirit that this is nothing new, and that all this was seen in the OT, then I am at a total loss to explain why Jesus mentioned them in relation to the new birth, eternal life, baptism in the Spirit (to enter the Body - 1 Cor 12:13), etc. and presented them the way he did to prepare us for the new era under the New Covenant. I am only trying to gain a better theological grasp of what the correct way to look at it is so that there is no disconnect between the theology of the OT & NT. I am looking for a coherent theology of the Spirit between the Old and New Testament and His role in the lives of the saints today.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

*NOTE*: I have changed the thread's title to "Differences in the giving of the Holy Spirit between the OT/NT?" to more adequately convey what I am trying to focus on in this thread. I think perhaps I gave some people the wrong idea about what I was saying in relation to salvation with the previous title. I primarily stated though that I was talking about the (various) operations of the Spirit in the NT as compared to the OT though.

 

[Nathan]

*NOTE*: I have changed the thread's title to "Differences in the giving of the Holy Spirit between the OT/NT?" to more adequately convey what I am trying to focus on in this thread. I think perhaps I gave some people the wrong idea about what I was saying in relation to salvation with the previous title. I primarily stated though that I was talking about the (various) operations of the Spirit in the NT as compared to the OT though.

Ahhh...this changes things...lol. I think that we are getting down to what you are trying to focus on. Its all apart of communication. This is such a big topic and all, it should be natural that there are many different paths we could trod down.

 

[Nathan]

It is this event of being given a new nature that the giving of the Spirit is closely tied to, and which I am studying in more depth right now in Ezekiel. It is particularly interesting that God promised the giving of His Spirit in close conjunction to giving us a new heart:

I think that this is where you are going to find your answers. Because the outpouring was described here in Ezekiel, and in Joel, those should be the foremost places to take into context what the 'differences' in 'methods' God was using the Spirit in.

 

[Nathan]

Ah, but here you misunderstand my point. I am not referring to some 'miraculous' on-going work that the Spirit does for us (because on the contrary sanctification, which is the on-going work of the HS in us [1 Peter 1:2], is done on the basis of us initiating it by faith and taking the grace and power given to us by the HS to cleanse ourselves [2 Cor 7:1], thus our responsibility). Rather I am talking about something that the HS does at the time of our salvation (a one-time thing) on our behalf as part of God’s work to save us and join us to his Body of believers. Among these things that the HS does is baptize us when we first believe into the Body of Believers (1 Cor 12:13), and we are made to “drink” of the Spirit, who gives to us eternal life through Jesus. Also we are told that were were sealed (made God’s property, identified as His) by the HS upon believing, and that we were justified/sanctified by the HS when we believed:

I'm not necessarily trying to make any statements about some special new way of salvation in the NT. Rather I'm trying to look objectively at these new things that the Spirit seems to do at the time of (or just after) our salvation (as one-time workings/realities thenceforth). I have listed a few of them above. My questions is "What is this work?", and "Is it in fact new in the NT?" (I say for the majority of them, yes the work is new to the NT (for example the function of paraclete in the physical absence of Jesus), but for explainable reasons in God's dispensation of the New Covenant). I'm not looking for cop-outs on theology, only trying to understand the Scriptures as they stand.

No worries man. I know you are not trying to look for a 'cop-out'. I apologize if I have seemed irrational or anything to that nature. I was on the mindset that you saw a difference in how Salvation is brought about between the OT and NT. But now that we have that misunderstanding on my part out of the way, I think we can move forward.

You speak of the moment of "our salvation". While we do throw around verbiage a lot in the Christian community, we must understand that because words are how we communicate we must use proper words to understand each other. No, I am not saying that you are misusing this word 'salvation', but many do not truly understand what it is, or better yet, who He is.

But I think we have covered that enough in the past. What my concern is, is that you consider this a 'one time thing'. As if 'salvation' is not an end to the on going process of sanctification. But I can see what your study is involving because the work of the Spirit in our lives is directly related to this. But all of those things you mentioned, baptized, drink, and sealed; they are all apart of the 'changed heart'. That is the difference in the giving.

Why do I come to that conclusion? Because of the OT references to the time of which God would do this outpouring into the individual lives of people. Jesus fulfilled this promise when He ascended and sent the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Peter attested to this in his sermon. What had happened that day was THE fulfillment of the promises in the OT. It had not happened before, and it did not happen again. That day was "the day".

So why the differences? Because before the people of God would leave the covenant. It was only when they came to the temple that the covenant was there before their eyes. When they left the temple, they went back to their old self centered ways. God was using this time to show the depravity of man, and the holiness of Himself. He was also using this time to point to the One who would be the fulfillment of all that was in the Temple.

Joel 2:27 "You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions."

Eze 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

Here is the differences of the work done by the Spirit.

1) Unity - Before the people of God were not unified. "Each did what was right in his own eye". They looked at each other and judged each other. But, when they came to the temple...they saw the depravity of themselves, and they would then see that they were no better than anyone else when compared to the righteousness that God demands. Now, with the Spirit inside of us we are constantly understanding our depravity. I used to get down because the closer I walked with God, the more sin I found in my life. It was not till I realized that this is precisely why He dwells in us. We now have no excuse. When we are "in" Christ, we are constantly "in" the Temple. And just as God was in the Temple of old, He is in us through the abiding Holy Spirit.

2) Walk - halak - It is the idea of constant day in, day out, living. Not a 'ritual' or a 'religious experience'. It was the idea that instead of the 'once a year' coming into the temple. Or when they would come to the temple to offer sacrifices for sins that they committed. This 'walk' was a moment by moment taking part in the statues of the Temple, in the heart of the NT believer.

3) Keep - shamar - Where as the 'walk' above spoke of an outward living, this 'keep' speaks of the inward living. As you well know, and as most astute Orthodox Jews do today, the Jews of the OT would 'wear' the law of God on themselves somewhere. They would also nail it to their door post. They always 'kept' it somewhere in their sight, or at least that is what they tried to do. But inevitably, for instance David, when he went up to the roof top, probably did not carry with him the law. What happened? Well we all know. And this is what God is pronouncing with this promise. He is going to 'put' His law into the very inmost part of a person, that way His Word is always with them.

4) Obey - I think this one speaks for itself. Before, when the people had this 'desperately wicked' heart, they had "excuses" for disobedience. I know that it sounds bad, and that can be taken out of context, but I hope you understand what I mean. With the new heart, with the Spirit of God 'abiding' in man, either man does or does not obey and there is direct and immediate consequences for both. The reason for the new heart is so that God could dwell with man. God cannot be coupled with wickedness, so that is the reason for the new heart, the new man. And because there are immediate outcomes of obedience and disobedience, man has a 'tighter' relationship with God. Man now knows "He is God, and there is none other".

What that does in the NT believer is cause the sanctification process to continue. When we are constantly in fellowship with God, when we are constantly 'going to the temple', then we 'grow up' into the people of faith God intended us to be. One day when we receive our new bodies, we will then have no more 'draw' to disobey. Sin will be dealt with, and the tempter will be done away with. So yes, in effect, we have been given a 'taste' of the coming kingdom by the work of the Holy Spirit.

These are the differences. But in reality, the giving of the Spirit, the role of the giving, has not changed at all. In both cases the sole purpose is to bring faith to the person. On a temporary and irregular basis in the OT. And on a permanent and consistent basis in the NT.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes. Andrew believed that Jesus, the Messiah as he called Him, was indeed the Son of God. Those who were waiting for Him, those who were looking to see Him, knew exactly who He was. There were very few who believed He was indeed the promised one. And the ones who did not believe were the ones who were the ones who would always scoff when He declared He was God.

I disagree, Nathan. The term "son of God" does not have to mean "God INCARNATE", and to the Jew prior to the Resurrection, it did not mean this. Andrew had absolutely no concept that Jesus was God HIMSELF come in the flesh until after the Resurrection. I take it you read Mark's Gospel???

Sure, we see there is a fundamental belief that "Jesus is the Messiah", but that does not translate, to the Jews prior to the Resurrection, as "Jesus = God".

No, the promise was considered eternal before it was considered temporal.

Of course it was, but it took the cognitive dissonance of the resurrection that totally turned upside down the Jewish idea of the Messiah and the Promise - and what God had in mind for those who were His disciples. The Jews of the OT mistook the Promise to be temporal. Only later, in some of the Prophets do we begin to see a spiritual recognition of what the Promise was. Some of what you would call the "Apocrypha" points to it. But certainly not the Pentatuech.

You can argue that it is a "Christan" point of view by taking the passages out of Hebrews to prove the point, but the fact remains that the passages are indeed in a letter addressed to Hebrews....not Gentiles....

My point remains that the Jews prior to Jesus did not fully understand the spiritual Promise.

The water down belief has a direct relation because of the faithlessness that Jesus found among His people. Faith had over the years slowly dwindled down to a trickle, then all but dried up when Jesus came. We see it in the very fact that the ones who were looked upon as being the wisest and most notable among the seed of Abraham, the ones who were the priests in the Temple, they are the very ones who had the hardest of hearts and the blindest of eyes to who Jesus was. Yes, the promises were indeed watered down through the generations. Just like it is today.

And where again do we see the complete understanding of the Promise in the Torah where we can say "it got watered down"? Perhaps the people who constructed the Golden Calf??? Please. We don't have to discuss how the People of God have ALWAYS had a problem with faith, it is not something that only 'lately' came upon them... I take it you read the account of the Exodus...

THEY SAW GOD PART THE WATERS! RESCUE THEM FROM THE PHAROAH. And yet, they doubted - and their faith rested upon the promise to get them to the Promised Land, a plot of land...

Christian interpretation simply means "the interpretation of one who follows Christ". Hey...if thats the case, then yes, I will go with that interpretation over one that comes from one not following Christ. Although the OT saints did not know who the Christ would be, and exactly when He would come.

Bravo, you got my point... We can understand the OT fully ONLY through the lense of Apostolic teaching where Christ is the center of all.

Yes, we do now see in part, what the fullness of Christ is. But thats just it, we see in part. We cannot even say we know the fullness here and now. That which is perfect has not yet come again. He will, and then we will know. This is why it all depends on faith. Faith is not seen. It is assurance and confidence, but it is not full knowledge.

We know much more than our Jewish brothers of the Old Testament. It is not because we are any smarter than them. It is because we live in a time where Christ has already revealed to mankind fully what He intends on revealing in this era.

2 Co 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

What part of "new" is 'still wounded'? When God created us anew in Christ, did He create us with a wounded heart?

Paul is speaking the ideal and what will be to those who become fully sanctified. None of us perfectly follow Christ at all times. We have a new force vivifying us, but we still have the power to revert to our old ways, even after once receiving such illumination from above and being freed from sin. 2 Peter 2:20-22

So Jesus did not know, or He was 'mistaken' about what the early saints believed? Are we talking about the same Jesus here? Your telling me, that I cannot be sure of what my Lord says, that He was looking at things from a skewed point of view??? Surely not!!!

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad"

Where do you take the ambiguity of what Jesus says and CHANGE it to mean "Abraham awaited God incarnate to come"???

Jesus can just as easily meant "Abraham saw the day that the Messiah would come to free God's People" "I am Who Abraham awaited" -

We can argue misinterpretation of Scriptures all day long. People have done it for centuries. We do not need man to teach us the things of God. This is true.

You saying it doesn't make it so. The very reason for existence of the Bible denies your interpretation. Paul wrote those many epistles BECAUSE THE PEOPLE DID NEED TO BE TAUGHT!!!!

God can, and will, and has, by His Spirit, taught many people the things of Himself. No, John is not referring to false prophets when he makes the statement. He is simply reiterating what his LORD had told him already.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Oh brother...

John is speaking about what was taught to THEM, (apostles and disciples of 2000 years ago) not you or I. "ALL THAT I TAUGHT YOU". So please do not misinterpret what Jesus taught John as Jesus teaching you personally. We learn through Apostolic witness and the Spirit opening our hearts to that witness. BRING TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE is clearly not "Nathan's" rememberance, but John's remembrance!

Yes, we NEED THEIR teachings!

Did you catch that? The Spirit would teach them all things...

THEM. Not you. Did you catch that? And thus, John writes letters to the people who NEED to be taught, since THEY didn't witness anything UNTIL AFTER being taught.

Or, are you going to argue again that Christ did not know what He was saying when He said this?

Clearly, Jesus didn't say anything to you in context of John's writings. He spoke to the men and women present. Not us. That is quite obvious.

We need to be taught. Otherwise, you will have to explain away a LOT of Scriptures and common sense that says otherwise. Such as Eph 4:11-13.

Regards

 

[Nathan]

Hey, if you want to chop up my reply and make it sound like something different then it is your choice. This is an open forum and I will take no offense to it.

 

[littlelight]

I also believe that the salvation under the new covenant and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something entirely unique (though always promised, prophesied about, and foreshadowed) and that we cannot pawn it off as just being,

I find this post very interesting. I'm making this post to see if I can learn to quote others posts so I will apoligize for the interuption. I'm new on the board and I hope that i did this right.

Luke 1:15-16
He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 1
NKJV

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit (indwelling) and he was the greatest of the O.T. prophets. I just found this interesting and since I was trying to learn how to post.

I'll keep reading and I hope to learn something.

Well I did it wrong. I don't see the cute little window.

 

[Nathan]

Welcome aboard little! I too believe it is a unique difference. Just that the main role has not changed.

To quote you highlight everything you want to quote and then click the little quote icon on the righthand side of the tool bar.

 

[cyberjosh]

NOTE: I deleted the mispost & replies to it above to clean things up a bit.

 

[Nathan]

NOTE: I deleted the mispost & replies to it above to clean things up a bit.

Thanks Josh. Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Josh. Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

Alrighty, Mr. Mod. ;)

Here are some of my interesting findings from some quick, but important looks at Scriptures that relate to this topic.
Please read all of it, it took me forever to type.

So, I was wanting to examine your claim [said here] a little more about how the Spirit had no real direct work in relation to our Salvation, aside from faith, (although no doubt closely associated with it) and wanted to see if I could follow this idea throughout Scriptures and discern something different this time. So with the back-drop of Ezekiel 36 in mind, about God giving a new heart and putting his Spirit in us (so, okay... I thought, maybe two different things) I wanted to see if these were in fact distinguished in the NT, while however being so closely associated. So with my trusty John MacArthur NKJV study Bible I went at some Scriptures and observed his commentary and tried to soak it up. My findings are below.

Starting in John 3:5, which nearly almost equates salvation with the birth of the Spirit, MacArthur wrote:

Jesus referred not to literal water here but to the need for "cleansing" (e.g., Ezek. 36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with "spirit" (Num. 19:17-19; Ps. 51:9, 10; Is. 32:15; 44:3-5; 55:1-3; Jer. 2:13; Joel 2:28, 29). Thus, Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (cf. Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5), required for belonging to His kingdom.

So, I thought: "Okay, the Spirit washes us with the water of the Word and cleanses us, as Scriptures tell us, and it happens when we believe and are saved, but perhaps it is not salvation itself, but merely accompanies it". Then following some cross references I followed the theme of the "giving of the Spirit" a little more, as a special NT promise, and came to Romans 5:5 which says, "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us". The Holy Spirit, whom we received at salvation, now channels the very love of God to us through his indwelling presence, testifying that we are God's children whom he loves (recalling the verse "the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God"). MacArthur briefly comments, with more Scripture references, "A marvelous testimony of God's love for us [to give us the Spirit] (Romans 8:9,14,16,17; John 7:38,39; 1 Corinthians 6:19,20; 12:13; Eph. 1;18)". And I also had quoted John 7:38-39 in a previoous post showing Jesus' equation of the Spirit being given with eternal life welling up in the believer, and of 1 Cor. 12:13 clearly showing the baptizing of every believer upon salvation by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (as the agent by which it is accomplished).

But still at this point I was thinking that mostly, "This can still possibly be seen as just happening upon/accompanying salvation and believing, done by the Spirit" (who is however quite integral in uniting us with the Body, and receiving God's very grace and love - HUGE aspects of the Christian life), but still not the cause of our salvation. And then I read a very important verse which clearly ties believing and receiving the Spirit very close together in Acts 19:2 which reads, in part, "he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?'", and the disciples of John hadn't even heard of the Spirit, much less Jesus. John MacArthur commented on this:

19:2 "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
The question reflects Paul's uncertainty about their Spiritual status. Since all Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation (see notes on Romans 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13), their answer revealed they were not yet fully Christians. They had not yet received Christian baptism (having been baptized only "into John's baptism") which further evidenced that they were not Christians.
19:4 baptism of repentance...believe on...Christ Jesus
These disciples did not realize Jesus of Nazareth was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instruction not on how to receive the Spirit, but about Jesus Christ.

So I thought at this: the Spirit's giving is taken for granted upon salvation, and Paul only needed to preach to them salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (not on how to receive the Spirit) and it was assumed and expected that the Holy Spirit would then consequently make His habitation in them upon that event (and He did, for they prophesied and spoke in tongues). So still I was then thinking, this is incredibly close to the issue of the believer's salvation(!) but still could be seperate from it, as always accompanying the true believer's salvation to usher them into God's people (1 Cor. 12:13), etc.

And then I looked at some (many) more Scriptures along the same lines (and the reading got good too, I'm just giving the cliffs notes version of my study ). And then eventually, with all the riches of cross references, I finally came upon Titus 3:5, and that was the real slammer that stopped me in my tracks of trying to distinguish the two works.

Titus 3:5-7 reads, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". This very clearly states that salvation is through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit!

John MacArthur, who thus far had given no strong or direct efforts to tie the Spirit explicitly to salvation wrote of Titus 3:5:

not by works. Salvation has never been by works (see Eph. 2:8,9; cf. Rom. 3:19-28). according to His mercy. Cf. Eph. 2:4; 1 Tim. 1:13; 1 Pet. 1:3; 2:10. washing of regeneration. see notes on Ezekiel 36:25-31; Eph. 5:26, 27; James 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23. Salvation brings divine cleansing from sin and the gift of a new, Spirit-generated, Spirit-empowered, and Spirit-protected life as God's own children and heirs (v. 7). This is the new birth (cf. John 3:5; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1). renewing of the Holy Spirit. Cf. Romans 8:2. He is the agent of the "working of regeneration."

Here MacArthur (rightfully) recalls the terminology of water and the Spirit to hearken back to Ezekiel 36 (the very same terminology Jesus was using in John 3:5), and shows that it is that which refers to the Spirit's working of regeneration in us to make us a new creature, a "new birth". And MacArthur here is perhaps even a little weaker than the rather direct association of Scripture here of salvation with the Spirit's regeneration. God saved us through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. It is from this verse alone in the NT that we even get the word "regeneration" (in the Greek lit. "again born", born again, a.k.a salvation). This is the conviction I have always held dearly to be the truth! That it is, by the Spirit we are regenerated and made a new creature.

Only if you could make some sort of distinction between regeneration/born again and "salvation" could you say that they are seperate. However though, I think it is outright misleading to say the Spirit is not involved in our salvation in any regard, for here plainly with Titus 3:5, as with Acts 19:2, John 3:5, 1 Cor 12:13, Romans 5:5, and more we see how closely the giving of the Holy Spirit to us joins us to God, His Body, His love, His promises, and even is the very agent of washing and regenerating us with a new heart and spirit as was promised long before in Ezekiel 36. I don't see how we can get around addressing Titus 3:5, and I would love to hear your thoughts about this.

And this isn't just another dry theological discussion for me, this is about as refreshing to me as drinking cool water when I am parched! My heart leaps when I read Titus 3:5! God renewed me, he gave me a new heart, made me a new creation, cleansed me and forgave me, put His Spirit in me, and empowered me (by grace) to live the Christian life! And how else could we ever live up to Jesus' elevated standards of the Sermon on the Mount? The Spirit empowers us by God's grace, not by the law, to do them! Grace is an even higher standard than the law (it's harder to not even think of doing something evil), which is a surprise to some! But we were not told to do something we could not accomplish, thus we were given the Spirit to help us by the power of Christ! Thus, I can do all things through Christ who strenthens me! And the Holy Spirit is integral in that picture. But more than just that, I also see the clear association of the Spirit even with our very salvation quite clearly.

Anyway, please enter into this reverently and joyfully with me in truly trying to understand God's wonderful truths revealed to us in Scripture about the work of the Holy Spirit in us upon believing unto salvation!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[mondar]

Josh, excellent tone and good observations.

The "washing of regeneration" mentioned in Titus 3:5 is the same imagery found in Ezekiel, John 3, and many other passages. Even the woman at the well in John 4 was offered water that would be a "living water." Of course Christ spoke of the living water as a "well of water springing up unto eternal life."

Of course John 3:5 has the water imagery also. That verse mentions a new birth by water, and by the Spirit. There are actually a host of other writers that would equate water and regeneration.

I think there are two questions about the water imagery and regeneration that need to be answered.

First, what is the relationship of regeneration to salvation. Is regeneration merely and only that work of the Holy Spirit which makes sanctification possible? If that is true, why does the scripture connect it to salvation so much ... as you yourself observed. I would agree that regeneration is that work of the HS that makes sanctification possible. That is not the question since the scripture also often connect regeneration to salvation. The question I am raising concerns the relationship of regeneration to salvation. How does that work?

Second, concerns the "order of salvation." In this issue I cannot help but hint at the answer I would give to the previous paragraph. If regeneration is the product of salvation, then what is its real connection to salvation. In John 4:14, regeneration is a well of water springing up into eternal life. In that verse, does salvation cause the water, or does the water cause salvation?

More concerning this issue would be found in 1st John. Let me quote a few verses from 1st John...

2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.
The term "begotten" is also regeneration imagery. Here, the question would be does personal righteousness cause regeneration, or does regeneration cause our walk in personal righteousness? I think we would both agree that the verse cannot be understood that we are regenerated by our own righteousness. This has exegetical support. The term "begotten" is a perfect tense verb. The greek perfect tense speaks of a past action with present results. The past action is regeneration. The past action points to the present results, and the present results are found in a present tense participle right in the verse. It is "everyone who does righteousness." The word "does" is a present tense participle. So then, regeneration causes righteousness (or sanctification).

The terms begotten also occurs twice in 3:9; once in 4:7; once in 4:9 (of Christ); but I am going to skip to 5:1. The reason is this is the text that I think tells us of the relationship between salvation and regeneration.
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Again, we have an identical greek construction as found in 2:29. The word "begotten" is in the perfect tense and is therefore a past action with present results. The past action is regeneration, and the present results is faith. Regeneration is the cause of faith that saves, as well as faith for living. If one wants to change the order in 1st john 5:1 and make it that faith causes regeneration, then you must also reverse the order in 1John 2:29. It is the same identical greek grammer. If you reverse the order in 5:1 and make faith (the requirement for justification) the cause of regeneration, then you must also make righteousness the cause of regeneration. That is a consistency issue.

MY CONCLUSIONS
For this reason when I approach the OT, I do not accept that regeneration was not present in the OT saints. Without regeneration, you do not have faith and salvation. This of course creates some questions on my part. If the OT saints were saved by faith, and faith was caused by the ministry of the HS in regeneration, how do the prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophecy a "new covenant?" That is yet another question.

Hope all this stuff is not bothersome in any way.

 

[Nathan]

For this reason when I approach the OT, I do not accept that regeneration was not present in the OT saints. Without regeneration, you do not have faith and salvation. This of course creates some questions on my part. If the OT saints were saved by faith, and faith was caused by the ministry of the HS in regeneration, how do the prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophecy a "new covenant?" That is yet another question.

This is indeed what it all boils down too. Differences in the 'covenants' are the next step in the equation.

 

[Nathan]

So, I was wanting to examine your claim [said here] a little more about how the Spirit had no real direct work in relation to our Salvation (although no doubt closely associated with it) and wanted to see if I could follow this idea throughout Scriptures and discern something different this time. So with the back-drop of Ezekiel 36 in mind, about God giving a new heart and putting his Spirit in us (so, okay... I thought, maybe two different things) I wanted to see if these were in fact distinguished in the NT, while however being so closely associated. So with my trusty John MacArthur NKJV study Bible I went at some Scriptures and observed his commentary and tried to soak it up. My findings are below.

Ok. I am going to have to stop here for a second, I promise I am going to read the whole thing, but I think you are taking this out of context, and/or I did not word the statement the way I should have.

The only difference is that aspect. Other than that there is no relation between the Spirit and Salvation.

I did not mean to come across as saying, "the Spirit had no real direct work in relation to our Salvation". He does, but it is directed and focused on faith. 'Other than that', there is no direct relation to our Salvation. Make more sense? I sometimes missunderstand what people are saying too, especially when they go on and on and on and on and on....like me :D