different bibles

[waitinontheLamb]

Dear Blazin,

You are entitled to have your view. What i can say is that i havent looked at the Quran in Arabic for this verse. This is a translation. There are many translations of the Quran made by different people into different languages but the Quran in Arabic is the best for reference. The reason why i am mentioning this is because the Quran is a feature of literary style. A lot of people refer to the Quran in English and think there is a mistake, but only when we can get familiar with the Quran in Arabic it becomes clear. Ill give you one example below.

http://www.missionislam.com/islamicart/ ... pg_jpg.jpg
The link above is in Arabic. Now for just this. There has been so many translations for example:

In the Name of Allah, the Benificent, the Merciful
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
This is just 2 there are many more just for this.

You also talk about it not being visible to the Human eye, well then this is a Miracle then. Remember this has only been discovered 1999/2000. We only have the technology now to see what a miracle this is. Imagine how it was 1400 years ago.

Ok lets move on becuase i have got another i would like to share. Blazin you mentioned that the red rose nebula was not convincing enough well i would like you and everyone else to look at the following link.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_02.html
http://www.backtoislam.com/images/ramse ... h_body.jpg

allah the merciful?

Why does he call for the death of all Jews and Christians?

Do you have a guarantee of salvation from allah or are you only hoping?

No, Jesus is the One who is merciful and in being so guarantees the eternal life of all those who believe on His Name for salvation and to prove it, He came and died for us.

Now that is love and mercy.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Before I respond to this latest issue, allow me to address two things you have previously said.

Miracle: an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

However, you say here...

You also talk about it not being visible to the Human eye, well then this is a Miracle then. Remember this has only been discovered 1999/2000. We only have the technology now to see what a miracle this is. Imagine how it was 1400 years ago.

By the definition of miracle you provided earlier, this event is certainly not miraculus at all.

Discovered in 1999/2000: This is not miraculus because no use of supernatural means was emplyed to find this nebula.

New Technology: You yourself give credit to the use of man made machines to see this nebula, therefore this event has not occured without the use of things in the natural world

Now, not only do the details appear general, but by the very terms you granted earlier, this event is not miraculous at all.

Deep_thinking, this latest claimed miracle is not based on fact, and the pharohs statement shows clear contradiction within the Qur'an itself. Pharoh claimed to believe in the God of the Israelites, which would be Jehovah. However then he claims to be a Muslim, a faith that did not have definitive roots until 1400 years ago. There is no records of Muslim history prior to Muhammad. This miracle appears to be nothing more than a myth not based on much fact.

 

[Guest]

Blazin you just simply cant say it was a myth. This is all factual evidence. With the help of God Almighty i will try and explain to you.

Miracle: an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

First of all if i was to tell you this a century ago you would probably laugh at me.

Secondly tell me are you able to create a nebula of this kind? This is what it means when it talks about 'surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause'


Ok about the phoroa now. First lets look at what fact means.

Fact is something that can be proven true, as opposed to opinion, which is something that can't be proven.

Was it stated in th Quran more than 1400 years ago that Pharaoh's body will be preserved.

"What, now! When previously you rebelled and were one of the corrupters? Today we will preserve your body so you can be a Sign for people who come after you. Surely many people are heedless of Our Signs." (Qur'an, 10:91-92)

Now we have to see wether his the Pharaoh's body was preserved.

http://www.islamisgrowing.com/index_files/qu_11.jpg
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/predictions_02.html

Yes we see his body was preserved. This is a fact.

Ok theres one more thing to clear up with Blazin. The Pharaoh's statement does not contradict the Quran. The verse is again for reference:

We brought the tribe of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his troops pursued them out of tyranny and enmity. Then, when he was on the point of drowning, he [Pharaoh] said: "I believe that there is no god but Him in Whom the tribe of Israel believes. I am one of the Muslims." (Qur'an, 10:90)

Theres a couple of things i need to make clear.

A muslim literally means 'one who submits to God.'

Islam does not have anything against the Jews Christians etc. We beleive in the same God as the God of Noah, the God of Moses, the God of Abraham and the God of Jesus (peace be upon them all). We accept them all as prophets. Islam also beleives that there were many more prophets all sent around the world to designated places. All it is talkng about in this verse is that pharoa beleived in God, but probably not with sincerity. Yes at the time of Musa (peace be upon him) and in the designated land the true religion was Judaism. When it says Muslims in this verse it is reffering to beleiving in God. The Quran talks about all these prophets being Muslim and the purist of Humankind becuase they submitted to God, they preached his message and upheld his values. Now Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the final messenger and the messenger to all mankind. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the seal of the prophets. Has there been a prophet after Muhammad (peace be upon him)?Key to the Islamic concept of God is that Muhammad's (peace be upon him) prophesy cleaned away all false associations people had made with God and established finally the pure religion of monotheism. The first thing Islam asserts and the last is that there is no god except Allah. Allah being the primary name of God in Arabic and meaning 'the god'.

Also this is refering to waitinontheLamb. It doesnt say anywhere that we should call for death to Jews and christians!

 

[Rick W]

Why is there so many different bibles. Why isnt there just one. Can The Bible really be trusted to be the word of God Almighty.

deep_thinking,

Some here have made some replies to which I understand you may have been compelled to rebuke or disprove. Given similar circumstances I too would defend my faith, my chosen scripture.

Allow me to make a request of all here.
Please try to keep on topic. Getting side-tracked concerning Islam will only serve to continue the discussion in the direction it has gone.

deep_thinking,
You've asked a valid question and I see no reason discussion can't continue in line with the topic. Promotion of Islam wasn't the intent as I see it. So far. Anyway, could we please remain on track with the topic.


To assure the topic is followed and not stray off into a defense/promotion for Islam I'll delete any and all future posts concerning Islam.... from anyone.

Peace

 

[Guest]

I understand you concern moderator. i will then start a new topic in Christianity & Other Religions section about Islam.

 

[Guest]

I was reading on a website that the number of Books in the Bible depends upon the Church one is following. And then it shows how many books there are. i have listed it below.

Protestant Church (66 books)

Roman Catholic Church (73 books)

Who is the real author of the Bible?

 

[EesaAbdullah]

I totally respect the forum, so I will not delv into the above matters in great detail but I will stick up against lies, am sure most people will understand since the Christian faith tends to be attacked alot now days by different people and there is always a feeling of wanting to clarify matters.

Why does he call for the death of all Jews and Christians?

Please point me, via pm if you wish to such quotes.

Do you have a guarantee of salvation from allah or are you only hoping?

Whether somenoe has a garantee does it mean that the garantee is true? If someone gives you a bus route map and tells you its true does it mean it's true? It might be or might not, establishing the truth of the garantee is more important than having one or not.

No, Jesus is the One who is merciful and in being so guarantees the eternal life of all those who believe on His Name for salvation and to prove it, He came and died for us.

Now that is love and mercy.

The God that you claim ask for the utter demolition of certain towns in the old testament? 'Show them no Mercy' thats the Merciful God?

Anyhow, if you want to carry on then create a thread if you wish, since this is off topic.

I will ask though, from the Christians here, who do you, i.e. each person lol, hold a reliable authority on the Bible and why do you hold such a person as an authority?

Thank you all for your patience

Eesa.

 

[Guest]

The list below is from the Bible Gateway website. From looking at this it seems that the Bible is updated regularly. Does this show that the Bible cannot be trusted as the word of God? Also why are there changes being made to the Bible, because if the Bible as we have it today with all these versions was really the word of God there wouldn’t need to be any update in Versions and so many.

If i am wrong then please tell me, also when anyone refers to other religions i suggest they speak the truth, because if you dont then your only lieing to yourself and this wont get you anywhere. This is not the way of our early predecessors in all religions.

21st Century King James Version
American Standard Version
Amplified Bible
Contemporary English Version
Darby Translation
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.
English Standard Version
Holman Christian Standard Bible
King James Version
New American Standard Bible
New International Reader's Version
New International Version
New International Version - UK
New King James Version
New Life Version
New Living Translation
The Message
Today's New International Version
Worldwide English (New Testament)
Wycliffe New Testament
Young's Literal Translation

 

[jgredline]

The list below is from the Bible Gateway website. From looking at this it seems that the Bible is updated regularly. Does this show that the Bible cannot be trusted as the word of God?

Everyone of those bibles listed is a traslation of the original manuscripts that have not changed....So while the translations might have a few differant variants, the originals don't.....

 

[EesaAbdullah]

Everyone of those bibles listed is a traslation of the original manuscripts that have not changed....So while the translations might have a few differant variants, the originals don't.....

Sorry to interupt but what you have said makes no sense, the translations differ with a 'few variants' but the originals don't?? Why would there be variants in verse numbers and passages if they were from the same Original Manuscripts??

Eesa.

 

[jgredline]

Sorry to interupt but what you have said makes no sense, the translations differ with a 'few variants' but the originals don't?? Why would there be variants in verse numbers and passages if they were from the same Original Manuscripts??

Eesa.

Are you saying that the original Greek manuscripts don't match?

 

[EesaAbdullah]

Are you saying that the original Greek manuscripts don't match?

I am talking about the Greek Manuscripts which we have now, they do not match, if they did, then there would not be variants, would there?

 

[jgredline]

I am talking about the Greek Manuscripts which we have now, they do not match, if they did, then there would not be variants, would there?

Which manuscripts are you speaking about? Can you show me what set you are refering to? Can you point out the mistakes in Gods word for me?

 

[EesaAbdullah]

Which manuscripts are you speaking about? Can you show me what set you are refering to? Can you point out the mistakes in Gods word for me?

I have not myself seen the manuscripts, but it is from the fact that if there are variants in the Bible then those variants came from somewhere, and the New Testament is based on Greek Manuscripts, thus if the Manuscripts do not differ there would be no variants, right?

Are we agreed on this point?

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry to interupt but what you have said makes no sense, the translations differ with a 'few variants' but the originals don't?? Why would there be variants in verse numbers and passages if they were from the same Original Manuscripts??

Eesa.

Sorry, but JG never mentioned there were differences in verse numbers or passages.

The main differances are; some translators take a word for word approach to translating; while others take a more thought for thought method of translating. In other words, some translate the original languages to English and try to preserve it word for word. Some read the original languages and try to determine wht the original writer was attempting to convey to their readers. I prefer the first approach.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

It might also be helpful to remember that the English language keeps changing. (Sadly) Words that were defined with a particular meaning fifty years ago might mean something totally different today.

 

[EesaAbdullah]

Sorry, but JG never mentioned there were differences in verse numbers or passages.

The main differances are; some translators take a word for word approach to translating; while others take a more thought for thought method of translating. In other words, some translate the original languages to English and try to preserve it word for word. Some read the original languages and try to determine wht the original writer was attempting to convey to their readers. I prefer the first approach.

Hi Vic C.

That's the translation, but what about differences in verses and so forth, when I read the word variant this is what I understood, maybe wrongly. But there are variants in the verses, I do not mean in translation where one person might say 'he got on a car' and another says 'he rode a vehicle' I mean verses missing from some manuscripts and passages changed. Thats the differences I speak of, this is what I understood by variants.

 

[jgredline]

I have not myself seen the manuscripts, but it is from the fact that if there are variants in the Bible then those variants came from somewhere, and the New Testament is based on Greek Manuscripts, thus if the Manuscripts do not differ there would be no variants, right?

Are we agreed on this point?

Thank You Vic.
I appreciate the responce

Now EesaAbdullah
Tell me something and correct me if I am wrong. The reason you are trying to find fault with the Holy Scriptures is because you are a Muslim correct?

Secondly you say that ''I have not myself seen the manuscripts, but it is from the fact that if there are variants in the Bible then those variants came from somewhere.''

Now if you have not seen the manuscripts but then you say ''you know for a fact'' How is it that you know this?

Where is your evidence?


How do you explain this?

Contradictions in the Qur'an
The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22). If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn't be any contradictions in it. Of course, the Muslims will deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do. Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.
A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another. The first one here is a good example. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since "nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay." Both cannot be true.
All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

http://www.carm.org/islam/Koran_contradictions.htm

 

[EesaAbdullah]

Thank You Vic.
I appreciate the responce

Now EesaAbdullah
Tell me something and correct me if I am wrong. The reason you are trying to find fault with the Holy Scriptures is because you are a Muslim correct?

Nope, not really, a common misconception among some is that as a Muslim a person needs/wants to find fault in other scriptures.

Whether the Bible has textual variations or not would not impact my faith, well it would not make it stronger, disproving one religion does not make another one right.

Secondly you say that ''I have not myself seen the manuscripts, but it is from the fact that if there are variants in the Bible then those variants came from somewhere.''

Now if you have not seen the manuscripts but then you say ''you know for a fact'' How is it that you know this?

Where is your evidence?

What I am saying is, and I hope you read carefully, as you have quoted me, it is simple logic that if there are variations in the Bible in English, variations which state that one passage says this, yet in another Bible the same passage says something different, and both the Bibles are taken from Greek Manuscripts then surely there is difference in Manuscripts. Don't you agree?

Am trying to see if you agree with this before I move on to asking about the variants I have seen.

How do you explain this?

Contradictions in the Qur'an
The Qur'an states that it is a perfect book preserved on tablets in heaven (Surah 85:21-22). If the Qur'an is a perfect book from Allah, then there shouldn't be any contradictions in it. Of course, the Muslims will deny any contradictions exist in the Qur'an, but they do. Some of the contradictions below could be debated, but some of them are clearly contradictions.
A contradiction occurs when one statement on a subject excludes the possibility of another. The first one here is a good example. In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since "nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay." Both cannot be true.
All quotes from the Qur'an, unless otherwise specified, are from Yusuf Ali and can be found at the Qur'an online.

http://www.carm.org/islam/Koran_contradictions.htm

I can refer you to forums if you wish where you can ask questions, since you have asked, I will just say that there are many ways that this can be looked at, I do wonder why the Yusuf Ali translation was chosen, since this passage translated is wrong, it is not 'created out of nothing' but 'created when he was nothing'

I would also like to add that many have the misunderstanding that a non-Christian is out to prove the Bible wrong, that somehow such a person is very eager to disprove the Bible as if they will receieve a medal, which is not always the case. Also that some people will never accept truth when it might be presented to them and such people will only bring upon themselves destruction, I chose to keep optomistic that mankind in general is bound together by a want to follow truth, some sincerly feel it is Judaism some Christianity and some Islam whilst others feels truth lies in other things, the best of people is he who when truth is presented gives up all and follows it, I hope everyone here would agree.

Eesa

 

[Vic C.]

You are welcome J.

Hi Vic C.

That's the translation, but what about differences in verses and so forth, when I read the word variant this is what I understood, maybe wrongly. But there are variants in the verses, I do not mean in translation where one person might say 'he got on a car' and another says 'he rode a vehicle' I mean verses missing from some manuscripts and passages changed. Thats the differences I speak of, this is what I understood by variants.

This is what I believe:

There were two sets of mms in the early years of Christianity. There were mms from Alexandria and mms from Byzantine, It seems that the early church, including the Eastern and Greek Orthodox churches prefered these Byzantine mms.

What I believe happened is while the Byzantine text was perserved, the Alexandia mms were not. Whether by accident or on purpose, when copies were made, mistakes like missing whole verses were introduced and was never caught.

I also believe that while the Textus Receptus (Byzantine) seems to be "newer" in origin, it is highly possible that they were copied from older mms, then these older mms were either destroyed or were lost. It would be a real blessing and eye-opener if these mms were somehow rediscovered.

I will also note that some of the newer Bible tranlsation relied on mms that were found in the trash behind the monastery of St. Catherine at Mt. Sinai. :o