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different bibles

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Vic C. said:
What I believe happened is while the Byzantine text was perserved, the Alexandia mms were not. Whether by accident or on purpose, when copies were made, mistakes like missing whole verses were introduced and was never caught.

Sorry to have to zoom in into one part of your post, I hope you don't mind, what caught my eye is "Whether by accident or on purpose" so correct me, you believe that some of the manuscripts of the Alexandria origin could have been change and not preserved or lost or what ever, if you hold such view, do you hold that also for the Byzantine text too?
 
Vic C. said:
You are welcome J.


This is what I believe:

There were two sets of mms in the early years of Christianity. There were mms from Alexandria and mms from Byzantine, It seems that the early church, including the Eastern and Greek Orthodox churches prefered these Byzantine mms.

What I believe happened is while the Byzantine text was perserved, the Alexandia mms were not. Whether by accident or on purpose, when copies were made, mistakes like missing whole verses were introduced and was never caught.

I also believe that while the Textus Receptus (Byzantine) seems to be "newer" in origin, it is highly possible that they were copied from older mms, then these older mms were either destroyed or were lost. It would be a real blessing and eye-opener if these mms were somehow rediscovered.

Vic
Very Good !..May I also add that one of the greatest discoveries that the Lord Jesus Christ blessed us with was by allowing the dead sea scrolls to come into the picture....When compared to the TR manuscripts they are the exactly the same...The Isiah scroll inparticular was Great because it was complete and perfect and a perfect match...Its awsome the way Jesus preserved his word.....

This exhibit is coming to SanDiego Ca. next month and I look forward to going to it.
 
Jesus said that unless one is born again, born from above, born of God, one cannot see the Kingdom of God.

  • John 3:3

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NASB: Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (NASB ©1995)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GWT: Jesus replied to Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above." (GOD'S WORD®)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    KJV: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ASV: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BBE: Jesus said to him, Truly, I say to you, Without a new birth no man is able to see the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DBY: Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WEY: "In most solemn truth I tell you," answered Jesus, "that unless a man is born anew he cannot see the Kingdom of God."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WBS: Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WEB: Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    YLT: Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

Jesus continues that unless one is born of the flesh in a physical birth, and born of the Spirit in a Spiritual birth, one cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

  • John 3:5

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NASB: Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (NASB ©1995)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GWT: Jesus answered Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. (GOD'S WORD®)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    KJV: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ASV: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BBE: Jesus said in answer, Truly, I say to you, If a man's birth is not from water and from the Spirit, it is not possible for him to go into the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DBY: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WEY: "In most solemn truth I tell you," replied Jesus, "that unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WBS: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WEB: Jesus answered, "Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    YLT: Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

Jesus is the only way, the only truth, and the only life through whom anyone can enter the Kingdom of God.
  • John 14:6

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NASB: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (NASB ©1995)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GWT: Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me. (GOD'S WORD®)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    KJV: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ASV: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BBE: Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DBY: Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WEY: "I am the Way," replied Jesus, "and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WBS: Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    WEB: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    YLT: Jesus saith to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;

The English tranlations of the verses of Scripture noted have the same meaning and those translations are NASB: New American Standard, GWT: God's Word Translation, KJV: King James Version, ASV: American Standard Version, BBE: Bible in Basic English, DBY: Darby Bible Translation, WEY: Weymouth New Testament, WBS: Webster's Bible Translation, WEB: World English Bible, and YLT: Young's Literal Translation.
 
EesaAbdullah said:
Sorry to have to zoom in into one part of your post, I hope you don't mind, what caught my eye is "Whether by accident or on purpose" so correct me, you believe that some of the manuscripts of the Alexandria origin could have been change and not preserved or lost or what ever, if you hold such view, do you hold that also for the Byzantine text too?
Yes to the first question; changed, as in verses and words omitted and/or changed. Remember there were no computers, scanners or copier machines back then. ;-)

No to the second question. I happen to esteem the Testus Recptus over the other mms and believe these are the mms God chose to preserve. My opinions of course, based on my studies on Bible history.
 
Vic C. said:
Yes to the first question; changed, as in verses and words omitted and/or changed. Remember there were no computers, scanners or copier machines back then. ;-)

No to the second question. I happen to esteem the Testus Recptus over the other mms and believe these are the mms God chose to preserve. My opinions of course, based on my studies on Bible history.
I hold to the same position, Vic. :wink:
 
Thanks guys. Michael, what you have shown us is that some of the key doctrines have not been altered despite differences in some interpretations. With that said, I still prefer the KJV, YLT and LITV, a;; which are based on the TR.

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (LITV)
 
Yep
I also agree with Solo and Vic...I believe God choose the TR to be his weapon of choice....

John 14:6 TR1550
6 Λεγει αυτω ο Ιησους Εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου

Here is a word for word translation of the above verse.
6 says to him jesus i am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by me


The book of John was one of our excercises when I took Greek...
No verses, no comas, no nothing...
 
Vic C. said:
No to the second question. I happen to esteem the Testus Recptus over the other mms and believe these are the mms God chose to preserve. My opinions of course, based on my studies on Bible history.

So the Testus Recptus mms have no variations and are wholly preserved?

If this is the case then what Bibles out there now are translated from these TR manuscripts, please direct me to some.

Eesa
 
deep_thinking said:
Are there any lost books of the Bible?

Try here

Do the lost books of the Bible prove that the Bible has been altered?

There is much talk these days about lost books of the Bible. Sometimes people claim that the Bible was edited to take out reincarnation, or the teaching of higher planes of existence, or different gods, or ancestor worship, or "at-one-ment" with nature, anything that disagreed with what the people in power didn't like. But, none of this is true. The "lost books" were never lost. These so called lost books were already known by the Jews and the Christians and were not considered inspired. They weren't lost nor were they removed from the Bible because they were never in the Bible to begin with.
These so called lost books were not included in the Bible for several reasons. They lacked apostolic or prophetic authorship; they did not claim to be the Word of God; they contain unbiblical concepts such as prayer for the dead in 2 Macc. 12:45-46; or have some serious historical inaccuracies. These books were never authoritative, inspired, or authentically written by either the Jewish Prophets or the Christian Apostles.
Nevertheless, in spite of these problems the Roman Catholic church has added certain books to the canon of scripture. In 1546, largely due in response to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church authorized several more books as scripture known as the apocrypha. The word apocrypha means hidden. It is used in a general sense to describe a list of books written by Jews between 300 and 100 B.C. More specifically, it is used of the 7 additional books accepted by the Catholic church as being inspired. The entire list of books of the apocrypha are: 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Rest of Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, (also titled Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, The Additions to Daniel, The Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. The books accepted as inspired and included in the Catholic Bible are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees Wisdom of Solomon Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch
The Pseudepigraphal books are "false writings." They are a collection of early Jewish and "Christian" writings composed between 200 BC and AD 200. However, they too were known and were never considered scripture. A list of these would be the Epistle of Barnabas, the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, the The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp, the The Shepherd of Hermas, the The Book of Enoch, the Gospel of Thomas (140-170 AD), the The Psalms of Solomon, the The Odes of Solomon, the The Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs, the Second Baruch, the Third Baruch, the The Books of Adam and Eve.
The Deuterocanonical (apocrypha) books are those books that were included in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) but not included in the Hebrew Bible. The recognized deuterocanonical books are 1 Esdras (150-100 BC), 2 Esdras (100 AD), Tobit (200 BC), Judith (150 BC), the Additions to Esther (140-130 BC), the Wisdom of Solomon (30 BC), Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) (132 BC), Barach (150-50 BC), the Letter of Jeremiah (300-100 BC), the Susanna (200-0 BC), Bel and the Dragon (100 BC), the Additions to Daniel (Prayer of Azariah (200-0 BC), the Prayer of Manassesh (100-0 BC), 1 Maccabees (110 BC), and 2 Maccabees (110-170 BC).1
These pseudepigraphal and deuterocanonical books were never considered scripture by the Christian church because they were not authoritative, inspired, written by either Prophets or Apostles, nor do they have the power of the word of the books of the existing Bible. Therefore, since the books are not lost and were never part of the Bible to begin with, they have no bearing on the validity of the Bible.

Lost Books

Actually, these are not the lost books of the Bible. We have all that God has ordained for us. A lot of people think the Bible isn't trustworthy and that many books were removed from it. That isn't the case. But, there were many ancient books around when the Bible was written. Here are some of them.

Are these books lost books of the Bible?

Pseudepigraphal Books
* Epistle of Barnabas
* First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
* Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
* The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp
* The Shepherd of Hermas
* The Book of Enoch
* Gospel of Judas (130-170 AD)
* Gospel of Thomas (140-170 AD)
* The Psalms of Solomon
* The Odes of Solomon
* The Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs
* Second Baruch
* Third Baruch
* The Books of Adam and Eve

Deuterocanonical (Apocryphal) Books
* 1 Esdras (150-100 BC)
* 2 Esdras (100 AD)
* Tobit (200 BC)
* Judith (150 BC)
* Additions to Esther (140-130 BC)
* Wisdom of Solomon (30 BC)
* Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) (132 BC)
* Barach (150-50 BC)
* Letter of Jeremiah (300-100 BC)
* Susanna (200-0 BC)
* Bel and the Dragon (100 BC)
* Additions to Daniel (Prayer of Azariah (200-0 BC)
* Prayer of Manassesh (100-0 BC)
* 1 Maccabees (110 BC)
* 2 Maccabees (110-170 BC)
 
Is there such a thing as one Bible that contiains all the manuscripts in its original form?
 
These so called lost books were already known by the Jews and the Christians and were not considered inspired. They weren't lost nor were they removed from the Bible because they were never in the Bible to begin with.

There was a discussion here not long ago about the Gnostic book of Judas. This one was refered to in "Da Vinci Code", a popular half truth - half fiction written by Dan Brown. But Gnosticism is not considered christian. Another Gnostic book was the book of Thomas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Gnosticism is a word derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning knowledge. It is a term created by modern scholars to describe a diverse religious movement often associated with Christianity, although textual evidence for the movement contains distinctly non- and anti-Christian elements, as well as anti-Judaic elements. These beliefs had largely syncretistic origins in that they were often based on various influences from such idea-systems.

And of course these books are not included in the bible.

How can there be a bible containing writtings not considered to be inspired of God? You might say that a book containing all spiritual writtings of the time or era would be a collection, but certainly not classified as a bible.


What are you trying to get at?
:smt102
 
Are you able to provide me with a Bible that is in its original form with no missing manuscripts?! I had asked before but i think you might either be working on it or just missed it, or maybe....
 
Do you even know what a bible is? What original bible are you talking about?
 
Ok. I want you to answer the questions below first if you wouldnt mind.

Are there any mistakes in the Bible?

What is the order of the Bibles from earliest to latest. What i mean by this is could you name me from the first Bible that was compiled working your way up to 2006.
 
deep_thinking said:
What is the order of the Bibles from earliest to latest. What i mean by this is could you name me from the first Bible that was compiled working your way up to 2006.

lol
You can do that research as well as I can.
Go for it.
oh, and post your results too ok? I'd like to see what you come up with.

deep_thinking said:
Ok. I want you to answer the questions below first if you wouldnt mind.

Are there any mistakes in the Bible?

There's a current thread on that topic around here somewhere. I'll look for it when i get home from work.
 
PotLuck said:
lol
You can do that research as well as I can.
Go for it.
oh, and post your results too ok? I'd like to see what you come up with.

This was my thinking when I read it also :-D
 
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