dirtfarmer here

[Truthfrees]

Hi Billy,
As your brother in Christ, it saddens me that certain churches of Christ have stolen your joy in so many areas, including the notion that the Holy Spirit has ceased in the manner you describe.

To you and all others, I would say this. Your position is a minority position and arguing it will only prove to divide us even more.

As a result, feel free to send each others PM's if any of you persist in this conversation. As for the board as a whole, I'm just going to say that this discussion will not occur openly and I do thank billybalke for offering to take this to PM.

dirtfarmer
chessman , Jim Parker , Razeontherock , WIP , Truthfrees , JohnDB

i will start a pm - who wants in?

 

[ezra]

i will start a pm - who wants in?

why can it not be discussed openly ?

 

[Truthfrees]

why can it not be discussed openly ?

i think it is because saying the operation of the Holy Spirit has ceased in part or whole is not allowed

StoveBolts can you clarify what can be discussed here and what needs to be moved to pm?

 

[JLB]

i will start a pm - who wants in?

I started one with Billy, I might as well join yours.


JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

I started one with Billy, I might as well join yours.


JLB

if i'm the only one that wants in then maybe i can join yours - i didn't start one yet - waiting to see who was interested

so either way is good for me

 

[Walpole]

I don't know if you are joking or not but here's an example of baptism in the Holy Spirit at Ephesus through Paul that came years after Cornelius:
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

A couple of observations. First, what St. Paul did was something distinct from baptism. Recall St. Paul said God did not call him to baptize. (cf. 1 Cor 1:17) Secondly, it is important to remember there is only one baptism. (cf. Eph 4:5) So what exactly did he do to the disciples at Ephesus who were already baptized into Christ?

The most ancient of Christian traditions answer this question. In baptism, the Holy Spirit is conferred in an invisible way. When an Apostle (and today, their successors) laid hands on someone already baptized, they were calling down the Holy Spirit in a visible and charismatic way. Thus from the beginning of Christianity, a distinction is made between baptism and the imposition of hands on a person and receiving the Holy Spirit in a more profound way. The most ancient of Christian traditions continue this practice to this day; for after a person is baptized, they are confirmed. It is thus demonstrably the regula fide of Christianity that from the beginning, there is a distinct and separate practice of baptism and confirmation.

 

[ezra]

baptism and confirmation.

confirmation i did some research on this and i kind of question it

 

[Walpole]

confirmation i did some research on this and i kind of question it

What exactly did you question about your research?

Call it confirmation, Chrismation or whatever you want, Scripture is clear the laying on of hands is something separate and distinct from baptism. It is done post baptism. In addition to the verse referenced above from Acts, here is another verse describing it as something separate and distinct from baptism...

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:1–2)

 

[JLB]

Secondly, it is important to remember there is only one baptism

Yes and it’s important to remember there is one God, also, Who is expressed in three.

Father, Word, Holy Spirit.


Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. Hebrews 6:1-3



JLB

 

[ezra]

Call it confirmation, Chrismation or whatever you want, Scripture is clear the laying on of hands is something separate and distinct from baptism. It is done post baptism. In addition to the verse referenced above from Acts, here is another verse describing it as something separate and distinct from baptism...

do what ?????

 

[JLB]

Scripture is clear the laying on of hands is something separate and distinct from baptism.

Don’t you mean separate and distinct from
Baptisms (plural) ?


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:4-5




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. Hebrews 6:1-3

great scripture

 

[stovebolts]

why can it not be discussed openly ?

It's pretty simple. The topic will get heated and will divide the site. We are no longer a debate forum and all discussions should build the body. As of yet, not all members understand that shift and as a result, dont know how to stay United in Christ through our differences. Maybe one day we will get there. But for now, we have work to do keeping this site United. As a result, threads that divide will tear the body down as they become heated because folks dont know how to accept differing views without it getting ugly.

So the short answer is this. We are not a debate forum. We are a discussion forum with the intent of building one another up. If anyone wants to debate and sharpen their debate skills to further divide the body, then they can go elsewhere as there are other forums that allow that. We are not one of them.

BTW, if any of the PM's spill into the public arena, I'll start removing the ability for certain members to PM.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hi Dirtfarmer. Please note that neither Eph.1:13,14 nor Rom.8:9 mentions baptism of any sort. As for I Cor.12:13 please consider this: "BUT THE COMFORTER, WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS , AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU". The Holy Spirit inspired the word of God, II Pet.1:21. I understand that to be "baptized by one Spirit" means to be baptized as the Spirit instructs, whether it be Holy Spirit baptism (which occured only in Acts 2 and Acts 10 and 11, or water baptism or the baptism of fire.

If this does not suffice then I invite either you or Mr. Parker to study the issue with me via private conversation on this forum.

God bless, Billy
,

hello billybalke, dirtfarmer here

we have conversed before and your offer for a private conversation was extended then. I have no reason to have a private conversation with your or anyone about scripture. Scripture is not of any private interpretation.

Can you give scripture that states or implies we are to baptized as the Spirit instructs?

Ephesians 4:5 states that there is one baptism, do you believe that to be water baptism? If so, then please explain 1 Corinthians 12:13 that states it is the Spirit that baptizes into one body.

 

[Jim Parker]

The most ancient of Christian traditions answer this question. In baptism, the Holy Spirit is conferred in an invisible way. When an Apostle (and today, their successors) laid hands on someone already baptized, they were calling down the Holy Spirit in a visible and charismatic way. Thus from the beginning of Christianity, a distinction is made between baptism and the imposition of hands on a person and receiving the Holy Spirit in a more profound way. The most ancient of Christian traditions continue this practice to this day; for after a person is baptized, they are confirmed. It is thus demonstrably the regula fide of Christianity that from the beginning, there is a distinct and separate practice of baptism and confirmation.

Yes. In the eastern Church, it is referred to as baptism and chrismation.
The western Church does confirmation.

By the laying on of hands, the person who was just baptized in water (illuminated) received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Eastern Church does one right after the other.

 

[ezra]

Yes. In the eastern Church, it is referred to as baptism and chrismation.
The western Church does confirmation.

By the laying on of hands, the person who was just baptized in water (illuminated) received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Eastern Church does one right after the other.

can any one not see what the problem is in the local assembly one word ===DIVISION ..we cant even prove what the baptism of the Holy spirit is.. other than being brought into the Body of Christ. to be honest we have took words liked being confirmed -confirmation and added them to our church Doctrine . the NIV reads strengthening we disciple we teach not some pomp and circumstances ritual/ceremony.. the Church of Christ has there way the baptist another ,to be honest what part i been around the word confirming has not been used .
my wife aunt belongs to a ucc united church of christ . she made the statement on face book her son was being confirmed . so i asked her did he get saved? because i was not sure what it was. her reply she did not know that was between him and the Lord... really ? the night i got saved the church was full of excitement .. this word Chrismation its not even in the Bible .
i may be behind times just being 57 years old.. i tell ya i believe in keeping the Gospel message simple be born again be baptized be blessed .. let folks know there sin will find them out.. teach repentance teach about the atonement .the cross all this other stuff in confusing

 

[JLB]

As of yet, not all members understand that shift and as a result, dont know how to stay United in Christ through our differences. Maybe one day we will get there. But for now, we have work to do keeping this site United.

Your doing a great job under the burden of a difficult mandate.

At some point, if we are all to come to the unity of faith, then the doctrine of Christ, which has everything to do with salvation, will need to be established by the owner and leadership of this Forum is the Statement of faith and adhered to by all.


Paul says it this way -

• till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16


Ultimately it will come down to a decision to either have (what is called) “unity” at the expense of compromising truth, or value the truth (the doctrine of Christ) as priority one.


Do we love the truth?


Otherwise we will continue to have a nice social club that changes no ones life, nor does it teach the truth.



JLB

 

[chessman]

The most ancient of Christian traditions answer this question. In baptism, the Holy Spirit is conferred in an invisible way. When an Apostle (and today, their successors) laid hands on someone already baptized, they were calling down the Holy Spirit in a visible and charismatic way.

This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and being enthusiastic in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things about Jesus, although he knew only the baptism of John.​

Acts 18:25 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 18:25&version=LEB

Evidently a man who is “enthusiastic in Spirit” can be instructed accurately in the way of the Lord (Jesus, Christ, Messiah) without ever even hearing of charismatic ways or for that matter Christian traditions much less running into their hands.

The Spirit of God does as He wills to certain men. Always has, always will. Jew or Gentile, with a name like Cornelius or Apollos. With or without a ‘proper’ water bath.

And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the way of God to him more accurately.​

Acts 18:26 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 18:26&version=LEB

And furthermore, speaking boldly about the Way of the Lord is proper, even in public (synagogue).

And furthermore still, correction/accuracy IS the Christian way.

If I personally, for one participating here on CFNet anyway, thought and stated that there was only one type of baptism (John’s wilderness/river baptism for example) or that the Holy Spirit was no longer in the business of performing baptisms (unless your name is Cornelius), or that certain men’s hands are required, I’d appreciate some brotherly (or sisterly BTW) correction. But that’s just me.

 

[Walpole]

Yes and it’s important to remember there is one God, also, Who is expressed in three.

Father, Word, Holy Spirit.


Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. Hebrews 6:1-3



JLB

Exactly how many baptisms are there?

Before Jesus ascended, He gave the Apostles two specific commands, the first of which is to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them. He then gives the Apostles the specific form for administering baptism, "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Is there anywhere in Scripture where another form is given for properly administering one of these other baptisms you think there are?

 

[Walpole]

It's pretty simple. The topic will get heated and will divide the site. We are no longer a debate forum and all discussions should build the body. As of yet, not all members understand that shift and as a result, dont know how to stay United in Christ through our differences. Maybe one day we will get there. But for now, we have work to do keeping this site United. As a result, threads that divide will tear the body down as they become heated because folks dont know how to accept differing views without it getting ugly.

So the short answer is this. We are not a debate forum. We are a discussion forum with the intent of building one another up. If anyone wants to debate and sharpen their debate skills to further divide the body, then they can go elsewhere as there are other forums that allow that. We are not one of them.

BTW, if any of the PM's spill into the public arena, I'll start removing the ability for certain members to PM.

Not sure why you are trying to stymie the discussion. I don't see anyone debating, but rather having a pleasant and thoughtful discussion, which is what you state is the purpose of this forum.