Discernment

[Danus]

Well, are you indicating that through being "born-again" (which I DO believe in) you feel a person, at that time, obtains this "certain amount of discernment?"

Absolutely. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Willie T]

Absolutely. Thank you for clarifying.

I would have to qualify that. I read that upon conversion, we instantly and effectively receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He is given to teach, or instruct, us. I have taught for many years, and there is one thing I have come to understand.... "teaching" does not necessarily mean the pupil learns.

So, I would say, "Yes", we have something within us that fully discerns many things. But to go so far as to say that because of that, we are now discerners, to any noticeable degree, is not something I can say.

 

[Danus]

I would have to qualify that. I read that upon conversion, we instantly and effectively receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He is given to teach, or instruct, us. I have taught for many years, and there is one thing I have come to understand.... "teaching" does not necessarily mean the pupil learns.

So, I would say, "Yes", we have something within us that fully discerns many things. But to go so far as to say that because of that, we are now discerners, to any noticeable degree, is not something I can say.

Hummmm so what's the point in that? Aren't you minimizing the Holly Spirit in saying that just because the Holly Spirit teaches, guides and instructs, some people just don't get it? If you are saying that then the effectiveness Holly Spirit to give any gift to anyone is only worth only what that person discerns of it. If you have the gift of discernment and your saying that comes from the Holly Spirit, then that is not from you, so how can you use what you don't have to determine what your getting?

 

[Willie T]

Hummmm so what's the point in that? Aren't you minimizing the Holly Spirit in saying that just because the Holly Spirit teaches, guides and instructs, some people just don't get it? If you are saying that then the effectiveness Holly Spirit to give any gift to anyone is only worth only what that person discerns of it. If you have the gift of discernment and your saying that comes from the Holly Spirit, then that is not from you, so how can you use what you don't have to determine what your getting?

You only have to read these forums to very clearly see that some people just don't get it...... no matter HOW you, yourself, think.

It's not using a "gifting" (which is NOT the kind of discernment I thought we were discussing) It is the willingness to trust something like maybe only a slight gut-feeling that comes across us for a few seconds... or an impulse to do something we might feel embarrassed about doing without having more concrete assurance that this is very definitely what we are to do.

I do not believe the Holy Spirit comes into us, and suddenly makes us different people. If that were the case, every Christian you see would be working wonders and teaching and healing thousands every week or two.

And I still honestly believe that the "discernment" that many people think they are gifted with is no more than runaway prejudice and opinion.

 

[iLOVE]

Discernment: As soon as the word of God is heard Satan comes immediately to steal this seed from the heart. He will always use multiple Christians who do not wear the full armor of God to help him along with worldliness. These Christians are lukewarm that mix "The Law" and "Grace". Law demands righteousness. Grace supplies and gives righteousness. You are made righteous what Jesus has done and not what you have done. These Christians have mighty logs in their eyes who do not live up to the standard they have placed on others. They break the "Royal Law" themselves with their words.

Satan is a master deceiver and you are his target. Satan's strategy in your life and mine: He aims to be such a wonderful counterfeit that he leads you astray. He wants to take you left when you ought to go right...to make you miserable when you ought to be happy...to make you defeated when you ought to be victorious. Satan's deception is so powerful that, according to the book of Revelation, he will deceive all the nations of the world. So he is not to be taken lightly! Satan has turned deception into an art form. Satan wants to deflect you from the will of God and interrupt God getting the glory. He wants to keep you ineffective. Satan will even twist things so you'll blame God for things that are his fault. Satan is the master deceiver and cannot stand objective truth. He does not want you to believe something simply because God said it. He'll do anything to deceive you and I. Defend yourself against his lies.

 

[iLOVE]

View attachment 4792

 

[Danus]

You only have to read these forums to very clearly see that some people just don't get it...... no matter HOW you, yourself, think.

It's not using a "gifting" (which is NOT the kind of discernment I thought we were discussing) It is the willingness to trust something like maybe only a slight gut-feeling that comes across us for a few seconds... or an impulse to do something we might feel embarrassed about doing without having more concrete assurance that this is very definitely what we are to do.

I do not believe the Holy Spirit comes into us, and suddenly makes us different people. If that were the case, every Christian you see would be working wonders and teaching and healing thousands every week or two.

And I still honestly believe that the "discernment" that many people think they are gifted with is no more than runaway prejudice and opinion.

I appreciate your candor. So that I may reflect back on your point for the purpose of understanding, You do not believe that the Holly Spirit works in the individual to guide, teach, effect, and direct them?........and even if He did, some people don't get it and, or, fail to learn what the Holly Spirit doesn't do to being with? Discernment is not a supernatural gift, but a natural thing some have or don't have, and those who don't have it think they do? ..........I got to tell you I'm completely confused trying to follow your OP and where we are now.

Having a hard time understudying your not believing in ones spiritual rebirth in Christ and not being indwelt with the Holly Spirit and saying others don't understand what it means to have spiritual discernment. Are you one of the people who have spiritual discernment and others not? Is your understanding of Spiritual Discernment based on a gut feeling or being able to see spirits like ghost or is it about discerning the truth of Gods word? ....I'm hoping you believe it's about discerning the true of Gods word, and that you might tell me if you have this gift or not......?

 

[Willie T]

I appreciate your candor. So that I may reflect back on your point for the purpose of understanding, You do not believe that the Holly Spirit works in the individual to guide, teach, effect, and direct them?........and even if He did, some people don't get it and, or, fail to learn what the Holly Spirit doesn't do to being with? Discernment is not a supernatural gift, but a natural thing some have or don't have, and those who don't have it think they do? ..........I got to tell you I'm completely confused trying to follow your OP and where we are now.

Having a hard time understudying your not believing in ones spiritual rebirth in Christ and not being indwelt with the Holly Spirit and saying others don't understand what it means to have spiritual discernment. Are you one of the people who have spiritual discernment and others not? Is your understanding of Spiritual Discernment based on a gut feeling or being able to see spirits like ghost or is it about discerning the truth of Gods word? ....I'm hoping you believe it's about discerning the true of Gods word, and that you might tell me if you have this gift or not......?

Sorry, I can't do things this way. Just about every single sentence you posted there is a whole entire concept. That's a guaranteed way to get yourself confused. It's like... "Explain calculus to me in thirty-seven words, or less."

So, if you are willing to reign it in a bit, and not ask me to explain the whole Bible (in a manner of speaking) in one breath, I'll try to hang in there with you.

To begin with, you must have missed the first paragraph of my Post # 42. I'll invite you to go back up there if you care to see what I said.

(I'll wait....... since there is little use in continuing till you read that.)

 

[Deborah13]

YLT
Job 4:12 And unto me a thing is secretly brought, And receive doth mine ear a little of it.
Job 4:13 In thoughts from visions of the night, In the falling of deep sleep on men,
Job 4:14 Fear hath met me, and trembling, And the multitude of my bones caused to fear.
Job 4:15 And a spirit before my face doth pass, Stand up doth the hair of my flesh;
Job 4:16 It standeth, and I discern not its aspect, A similitude is over-against mine eyes, Silence! and a voice I hear:
Job 4:17 `Is mortal man than God more righteous? Than his Maker is a man cleaner?
Job 4:18 Lo, in His servants He putteth no credence, Nor in His messengers setteth praise.'
Job 4:19 Also--the inhabitants of houses of clay, (Whose foundation is in the dust, They bruise them before a moth.)
Job 4:20 From morning to evening are beaten down, Without any regarding, for ever they perish.
Job 4:21 Hath not their excellency been removed with them? They die, and not in wisdom!

These are the words of Job's supposed friend Eliphaz. imo, This was a lying spirit that came to him. This spirit lies about God and how He relates to His people.
Does God praise His men who serve Him? Yes, He does. Does God beat down His servants? No, He doesn't. Do any of His servants die/perish without God knowing (regarding)? Absolutely not! Do His servants die without wisdom? Again, no.
It was a lying spirit that spoke through Job's wife when she said, "Curse God and die."

If what happened to Eliphaz were to happen to you or I we should discern the lies and know that this spirit was not from God.

 

[Danus]

Sorry, I can't do things this way. Just about every single sentence you posted there is a whole entire concept. That's a guaranteed way to get yourself confused. It's like... "Explain calculus to me in thirty-seven words, or less."

So, if you are willing to reign it in a bit, and not ask me to explain the whole Bible (in a manner of speaking) in one breath, I'll try to hang in there with you.

To begin with, you must have missed the first paragraph of my Post # 42. I'll invite you to go back up there if you care to see what I said.

(I'll wait....... since there is little use in continuing till you read that.)

Yes I read that, #42. You said,

"I read that upon conversion, we instantly and effectively receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He is given to teach, or instruct, us. I have taught for many years, and there is one thing I have come to understand.... "teaching" does not necessarily mean the pupil learns.

So, I would say, "Yes", we have something within us that fully discerns many things. But to go so far as to say that because of that, we are now discerners, to any noticeable degree, is not something I can say."

But you don't believe in spiritual rebirth (ie being born again) and you don't believe we are indwelt by the Holly Spirit. So, I guess I don't know what discernment you do believe in when it comes to discernment of the spirits, or how that might relate to your OP.

I don't know Jonathan Welton. I'm not familiar with his work. I did not see much in the OP you quoted that I have a problem with or anything, but it seems there might be more not spoken of by him in regard to the subject, which lead me to here. That's why I said in my original response that I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing in, so much as the subject of discerning of the spirits.

However, our conversation has solidified for me that perhaps we are not, and I do appreciate your clarifying it more. Thank you.

 

[Deborah13]

Discernment is not a supernatural gift, but a natural thing some have or don't have, and those who don't have it think they do? ..........I got to tell you I'm completely confused trying to follow your OP and where we are now.....?

Danus, from previous threads it seems I remember that you don't believe that the spiritual gifts in 1Corin. are for today, that you believe that they are longer given. These gifts are distributed by God as He chooses and not everyone gets them.
The supernatural gift of healing is the kind of healing that bones are mended, the deaf hear, the mute speak, and the dead are raised.

For instance, I can hear a man give a sermon and because he says something that is not correct in the Word I can know that he has spoken in error. But I don't have the supernatural GIFT of Discernment, so I don't know that it is a Evil Spirit speaking through him. I can only discern that he has made an error and that error may just be a Human error, not that it is an evil spirit.
Some people do have this gift, they can actually SEE and HEAR and KNOW, without a doubt that it is an evil spirit.

Charles Spurgeon was Gifted later in his ministry. I don't know if it was the gift of knowledge or wisdom or both for that matter, but it was Supernatural and he wrote about it.
He would look out at a crowd of thousands and speak to one person that he did not know or had seen before and tell them what they had been doing that morning or something that they were battling. Read what he says about this. I think he mentions about 13 or so different times this happened. He says that there is something more that the Holy Spirit can give to a person. I think he even mentioned it in a sermon but I would have to look for it again.

 

[Willie T]

Yes I read that, #42. You said,

"I read that upon conversion, we instantly and effectively receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He is given to teach, or instruct, us. I have taught for many years, and there is one thing I have come to understand.... "teaching" does not necessarily mean the pupil learns.

So, I would say, "Yes", we have something within us that fully discerns many things. But to go so far as to say that because of that, we are now discerners, to any noticeable degree, is not something I can say."

But you don't believe in spiritual rebirth (ie being born again) and you don't believe we are indwelt by the Holly Spirit. So, I guess I don't know what discernment you do believe in when it comes to discernment of the spirits, or how that might relate to your OP.

I don't know Jonathan Welton. I'm not familiar with his work. I did not see much in the OP you quoted that I have a problem with or anything, but it seems there might be more not spoken of by him in regard to the subject, which lead me to here. That's why I said in my original response that I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing in, so much as the subject of discerning of the spirits.

However, our conversation has solidified for me that perhaps we are not, and I do appreciate your clarifying it more. Thank you.

Again, you, seemingly, are not reading what I write........................... My post is below..... and you even quoted it once before.

Willie T said: ↑
Well, are you indicating that through being "born-again" (which I DO believe in) you feel a person, at that time, obtains this "certain amount of discernment?"

I'm afraid I don't know how to carry on a conversation in which my words are either ignored, or you say that I said the opposite of what was pretty plainly written by me.

 

[Danus]

Again, you, seemingly, are not reading what I write........................... My post is below..... and you even quoted it once before.



I'm afraid I don't know how to carry on a conversation in which my words are either ignored, or you say that I said the opposite of what was pretty plainly written by me.

I stand corrected, In post #40 you did say "Well, are you indicating that through being "born-again" (which I DO believe in) you feel a person, at that time, obtains this "certain amount of discernment?"

I replied: Absolutely.

Do you disagree?