Discovered my church is calvanistic. . . and I'm not chosen.

[handy]

I think I see what you're saying as well, Drew, and I agree with you.

Once, I saw a person tell a fairly young kid to "pray that Jesus come into your heart". The kid did, then the person had the child breath in deeply, really deep, a number of times, all the while saying, "do you feel that? Do you feel that, that is Jesus coming into your heart."

No, it was actually oxygen overdose due to hyperventilation. The poor kid almost passed out from all the heavy breathing and later I rebuked the woman for doing that to the child on the basis that one of these days the kid was going to breath out, and what would happen to his faith if he no longer felt "Jesus" there?

While I do believe in a personal relationship with God, no, it's not a warm-fuzzy feeling. It's learning the truths about God and choosing to believe them. It's even being assailed by doubts at time, and choosing still to believe in God. It is stepping out in faith and walking with the attitude that Jesus is there and does care, even if that "warm fuzzy feeling" isn't.

I will admit, in my 30+ years of being a Christian, I have had numerous "warm fuzzy" moments when I feel as though Jesus' arms are wrapped right around my shoulders.

But, then I've also gone through some very dry periods where He seems like a fairy tale or something even worse.

But I still choose to believe and place my faith in Him. And, most of the time this takes the form of a thought forming in my head, a thought say along the line of "the earth really cannot be 6000 years old, I think the church is being wrong headed about that...yet even though the church be wrong, I'll still place my trust in Jesus Christ." Or it could be thought along the lines of "You know, this all might be so much bull-hockey. I should go out seek pleasure, find a loose man, smoke a cigar...but no, I'll still trust in the Lord."

Orion, if some of the Bible stories trip you up, don't worry about them. But don't let a doubt about whether or not Adam and Eve were real or were they a Hebrew parable that grew out of a Mesopotamian myth keep you from choosing to believe in the truths of God that you can understand and that you do have a handle on. There is time enough and more to discover what is true about the Bible and what isn't when you are filled with the Spirit (in the true Biblical sense, not the "Jesus in your heart" sense). Trying to decipher the Scriptures when you are rejecting God himself though, is an exercise in futility.

BTW, I agree with whirlwind on one thing: If the Calvinistic church is causing you to doubt God this much, seek out a different church.

 

[Orion]

Thanks, you two. I'm not "rejecting" any deity, but do have my issues with what is written about a said deity in the holy book. If I don't have to believe they actually happened, as written, and can still be okay, than [again] I'm good with that. Oh, and samuel, . . . the migrating Hebrews killing everyone in their path may be an issue, but it is hardly the main one for me, but thanks!

Oh, and also, as for the church I go to, . . . I only go there because they need my help in the music department. I have to cringe often during the messages, though. At some point, I may have to step down [as soon as more musicians come in]. I don't want to leave them high and dry. They're good people.

 

[whirlwind]

Orion...this is for YOU. I opened my Bible on this page and it is for you.

• Romans 1:10-11 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
  
  1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written "The just shall live by faith."
  
  1:19-22 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

The gospel is the power of God and is "salvation to EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVETH." Not to the chosen elect. The elect are here to share His Word with others so that they too believe. Look around this world for He is CLEARLY SEEN. Glorify Him, thank Him. Humble yourself and tell Him you don't understand everything for no one does and stop being foolish. He wants your love, not your abundant, intellectual understanding of the Word. If you have a question then ask Him but don't base your salvation on whether or not you understand the answer or whether or not He is ready to give you the answer. We are fed as He knows we are ready...not before.

 

[kevkelsar]

At church, last night, . . . the pastor spoke on election. . . . how no one can come to God without being called/drawn by God. He had all sorts of verses for it, . . . but was man enough to bring up the fact that the bible is actually a bit conflicting on "salvatation", since "whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved" is contrary to election. As is "how can the believe if they don't hear, and how can they hear unless they are sent, and. . . etc".

Regardless, as he said, if you come to believe (have faith in Jesus), you were one who was chosen from the beginning, having your name written in the "book of life". Since I've never had that faith, I have come to the conclusion that God hates me and created me for destruction, IF that is all true. I don't believe it to be, but that was the conclusion of the sermon.

Orion, what if "salvation" and "being called and elected" are two separate things entirely? I don't mean to intrude on your current discussion, but I believe that "being saved" and "being called and elected" have very different and significant meanings.

 

[Orion]

Hey kev, I have to leave my computer for the evening, but feel free to expound...

 

[whirlwind]

At church, last night, . . . the pastor spoke on election. . . . how no one can come to God without being called/drawn by God. He had all sorts of verses for it, . . . but was man enough to bring up the fact that the bible is actually a bit conflicting on "salvatation", since "whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved" is contrary to election. As is "how can the believe if they don't hear, and how can they hear unless they are sent, and. . . etc".

Regardless, as he said, if you come to believe (have faith in Jesus), you were one who was chosen from the beginning, having your name written in the "book of life". Since I've never had that faith, I have come to the conclusion that God hates me and created me for destruction, IF that is all true. I don't believe it to be, but that was the conclusion of the sermon.

Orion, what if "salvation" and "being called and elected" are two separate things entirely? I don't mean to intrude on your current discussion, but I believe that "being saved" and "being called and elected" have very different and significant meanings.

I agree. Consider....

• Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There you see the firstborn, the elect, and who are they among? Who are the brethren...the many brethren? We don't know and won't know until this age ends who the elect and who the brethren are but we can know that we are among the saved.

 

[shad]

Todd, . . . I've been in the church all my life [41 years old now] and I have gone further away, not closer. The more I look at the Bible and study different aspects and viewpoints, I'm removed more from it. I must be "designed for destruction".

Orion,

Faith is decision, decision to believe in God and Jesus. Stop asking around questions, and just do it, Orion.

Read the New Testament thoroughly and start serving Jesus with all your might. And you get all your questions answered. The Holy Spirit will help you to understand what it takes to be Jesus' servant. Never mind about Calvinism or Lutherism or John Wesleyism. You should have your own relationship with Jesus by reading the Bible. Dont rely on others' opinions or understanding, not even your pastor's.

.

 

[kevkelsar]

Hey kev, I have to leave my computer for the evening, but feel free to expound...

Thanks for acknowledging me, and I hope I can lay this out in such a manner to be easily understood.

First of all, salvation. I think I understand definition of being saved throughout numerous people from "mainstream" Christian faiths. However, it may differ because I'm not very familiar with Calvanists. In a nutshell, by professing that Jesus is your Savior, and accepting Him as such and turning your life over to Him, you become saved. However, one discrepancy I have encountered are those that believe the "once saved always saved" mentality, and those who believe that it is possible to become "unsaved" through transgression and sin, or falling way from God and His teachings.

While my own personal belief and definition of "being saved" differs from what I have just explained, if I did believe it I would most certainly be of the portion that believes one can fall from grace through erroneous choices and actions contrary to God's will. This type of belief makes sense since no unclean thing can dwell with God, so if you become clean and then completely dirty yourself with no effort of repenting and becoming clean again, you would be dirty and unworthy to be with God after this life. So, in essence, taking the initial steps towards "being saved" are not guarantees that you will always "be saved."

So what does that have to do with being called and elected? Refer to 2 Peter, chapter 1. Specifically the following verses, my own emphasis added:

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Peter is encouraging the Saints to add to their faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity. Yet, even after mentioning all these attributes, which are surely the attributes of a true follower of Christ, he admonishes them to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure." Why? "For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ."

Later in the chapter he goes on to say in verse 19, "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." A more sure word of prophecy? More sure than what has already been given? One that if we take heed of it, it shines like a light in a dark place until it's so bright that it's like a star arising in our hearts! Obviously, there is something to the "calling and election sure" that he has mentioned.

As a side here, recall that this teaching is coming from an Apostle who was with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. This is one that was there and heard the Father say, "This is my Beloved Son: hear him" (Mark 9:7). Many would think that hearing the voice of the Father from the heavens declare the divinity of His Son, Jesus Christ, would be a pretty sure word of prophecy. It doesn't get more direct and clear than that.

So, after all this, what am I trying to say? I believe that having one's calling and election made sure is to mean that through their trials and choices in their life, God gives them a complete reassurance that they will, in fact, be saved: which is to say, be with Him after this life. They have proven themselves to have 100% trust in God and will never falter from His path.

I believe that is sufficient for now. I could go on about how I believe one receives this calling and election, meaning how do they know their calling and election is sure, but that could be a whole new topic. Anyway, I hope that with this explanation you can understand that while you have taken the steps to "be saved", you can have the reassurance that just because your calling and election isn't sure does not mean you won't be saved. I certainly can't say my calling and election is sure, so I go forward each day seeking to live the life God would have me live. Always looking to do better, to serve others, and to help spread the love of Christ to all.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I think that interpretation of election is bollocks. The NT / Jesus is very clear.

 

[kevkelsar]

I think that interpretation of election is bollocks. The NT / Jesus is very clear.

Yes, the New Testament is quite clear that there is a difference between "being saved" and having your calling and election sure. And if that interpretation is "bollocks", as you have stated, would you mind explaining why? Criticism without an explanation or support of such criticism is just bollocks in and of itself. Constructive criticism assists in coming to an understanding and provides teaching/learning opportunities.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I think that interpretation of election is bollocks. The NT / Jesus is very clear.

Yes, the New Testament is quite clear that there is a difference between "being saved" and having your calling and election sure. And if that interpretation is "bollocks", as you have stated, would you mind explaining why? Criticism without an explanation or support of such criticism is just bollocks in and of itself. Constructive criticism assists in coming to an understanding and provides teaching/learning opportunities.

This is my own personally opinion based on what I have read and how I interpret it. To say that only a select few are essentially saved and God has pre ordained this before someone is even born is not sound doctrine. Anyone at anytime can come to Christ and God regardless of what sin they have committed. Repent and you shall be saved.

 

[kevkelsar]

[quote="Aero_Hudson":10kvc1xh]I think that interpretation of election is bollocks. The NT / Jesus is very clear.

Yes, the New Testament is quite clear that there is a difference between "being saved" and having your calling and election sure. And if that interpretation is "bollocks", as you have stated, would you mind explaining why? Criticism without an explanation or support of such criticism is just bollocks in and of itself. Constructive criticism assists in coming to an understanding and provides teaching/learning opportunities.

This is my own personally opinion based on what I have read and how I interpret it. To say that only a select few are essentially saved and God has pre ordained this before someone is even born is not sound doctrine. Anyone at anytime can come to Christ and God regardless of what sin they have committed. Repent and you shall be saved.[/quote:10kvc1xh]

Perhaps I didn't clarify sufficiently in my post. I hope I didn't say that only a select few are saved, meaning only those who are selected, or pre-ordained. My overall message in that post was that we all have the chance to be saved. However, to be called and elected means that you have a 100% assurance from God that you will never fall away in sin and become "unsaved". You have proven yourself to be one valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ at all times, in all places, and in all situations.

I wholeheartedly agree that anyone at anytime can come unto Christ and repent. But I don't believe everyone has their calling and election made sure, only a select few reach that point. However, one person who does have their calling and election made sure and another who doesn't, but both in the end are saved, receive the same ultimate gift of salvation.

 

[toddm]

This is my own personally opinion based on what I have read and how I interpret it. To say that only a select few are essentially saved and God has pre ordained this before someone is even born is not sound doctrine. Anyone at anytime can come to Christ and God regardless of what sin they have committed. Repent and you shall be saved.

Who said anything about it only be a "select FEW"? This is the common misconception of those w/ a poor understanding of Calvinism. God doesn't elect only a handful of people. You are right in saying that anyone can come regardless of their sin, but they must be first made alive spiritually (only the Holy Spirit can do this). Romans 3:10-12 clearly says that there is no one who seek God, no one who understands. If it were left solely up to humans, no one would be saved.

 

[toddm]

I wholeheartedly agree that anyone at anytime can come unto Christ and repent. But I don't believe everyone has their calling and election made sure, only a select few reach that point. However, one person who does have their calling and election made sure and another who doesn't, but both in the end are saved, receive the same ultimate gift of salvation.

How do you figure? Jesus said that whoever the Father gives him he will never lose (John 6). Your view doesn't fit w/ Romans 8:29-30 or Ephesians 1:4,5.

 

[kevkelsar]

I wholeheartedly agree that anyone at anytime can come unto Christ and repent. But I don't believe everyone has their calling and election made sure, only a select few reach that point. However, one person who does have their calling and election made sure and another who doesn't, but both in the end are saved, receive the same ultimate gift of salvation.

How do you figure? Jesus said that whoever the Father gives him he will never lose (John 6). Your view doesn't fit w/ Romans 8:29-30 or Ephesians 1:4,5.

Who's to say that those who the Father gives Christ are those who accept Christ and saved? To me, this is another evidence that there is some difference here. Having the Father give you to Christ is much different than you simply accepting Christ as your Savior. And here, Jesus even says, those whom the Father gives Him (in this context, those who's calling and election are sure) will never be lost.

As for those scriptures referring to predestination or pre-ordination...that's a whole other subject. Much too large to address right now. In this context, being pre-ordained does not mean the same thing as having ones calling and election made sure. Most references of pre-ordination suggest some type of promise BEFORE our physical birth.

 

[Orion]

Why would God "pre-ordain" someone who he knows would ultimately be sent to hell?

There have been some hard to understand ideologies in this thread. It seems that some biblical verses give ONE denomination their doctrine of salvation, and another verse gives another denomination theirs. Then, the believers from those denominations continually fight amongst themselves as to "why THEY are right". It seems like a comic tragedy.

 

[kevkelsar]

Why would God "pre-ordain" someone who he knows would ultimately be sent to hell?

Pre-ordination is not a guaranteed promise, but a conditional promise. One can be pre-ordained and fulfill all the conditions (in this case, believe in Christ and live His teachings throughout your life) to receive the promise. On the other hand, one can be pre-ordained and fail to fulfill all the conditions and lose that promised ordination.

Just because one is pre-ordained by God does not eliminate a person's freedom to choose for themselves what they will do. So why would God pre-ordain someone whom He knows in the end will not make the right choices to receive the promises? I don't know, because to me it's not a matter of God knowing where we'll end up, it's a matter of us not knowing where we will end up. It's up to us and our decisions/choices in life.

 

[Orion]

Correct me if I'm wrong, . . . but it seems [then] that God "pre-ordains" everyone. If not, then one would have to conclude that those who are NOT "pre-ordained" are created for destruction, purposefully. Right?

 

[kevkelsar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, . . . but it seems [then] that God "pre-ordains" everyone. If not, then one would have to conclude that those who are NOT "pre-ordained" are created for destruction, purposefully. Right?

I guess it depends. What are people pre-ordained to do/be? A great spiritual teacher? The leader of a Church? I know my beliefs differ significantly concerning a pre-mortal life, but I believe everyone ever born on this earth has been pre-ordained to one degree or another.

 

[Orion]

Oh, I'm sorry, . . .I thought the "pre-ordination" was for salvation? I may be getting my words mixed up. Maybe substitute the word, "Pre-destined" in its place.