Discovered my church is calvanistic. . . and I'm not chosen.

[kevkelsar]

I'm not so sure everyone is pre-ordained for salvation, but I can see it possible. Salvation is offered to everyone freely, we simply have to make the choice to partake of it. The original topic was dealing with being called and elected, which I believe is something that would take place during this mortal life for those found privileged to have their calling and election made sure.

 

[Joe67]

1 Tim 4:10
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. KJV

The church I joined at the age of twelve would have considered this thought as blasphemous, if quoted in its open, plainly stated thought.

Remember that there are at least three heavens. Paul was lifted up to the third heaven and saw and heard things that he was not capable of expressing.


Rom 11:33
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! KJV

Joe

 

[Orion]

So, what does it mean for me if I cannot hear this calling? Am I of those who were spoken of in Mark 4:11-12?

4:11
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
4:12
so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

In another thread, I've been told that "the foolishness of God is not understood unless the Holy Spirit shows it to them". So, if I'm not understanding, not perceiving, . . . is it because God doesn't want me to turn and be forgiven?

That would be the opposite side of those who are chosen, right?

 

[kevkelsar]

The doctrine of only a select number of "chosen" who will eventually be "saved" is completely false. We are not expected to understand everything in this life, by any means. Just because we don't understand something does not mean God doesn't want us to understand it. Perhaps we aren't ready to understand it until a later time after further preparation.

 

[Orion]

But if I'm a "Mark 4:11-12 person", I have little to look forward to, right? I will not understand, nor perceive, but will only see destruction.

 

[kevkelsar]

But are those "Mark" people, as you have stated, not understanding because they choose not to understand? Because I can promise that as long as someone has an hope heart and willing to be taught, God will eventually help them understand.

 

[Steve76]

But if I'm a "Mark 4:11-12 person", I have little to look forward to, right? I will not understand, nor perceive, but will only see destruction.

I would remove yourself from any denomination and find an independant Bible believing Church and/or fellowship and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling - Philippians 2:12-16

But, that is just my opinion and advice and, I am just a man.




http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/

 

[Orion]

But are those "Mark" people, as you have stated, not understanding because they choose not to understand? Because I can promise that as long as someone has an hope heart and willing to be taught, God will eventually help them understand.

I could be wrong, but it looks like Jesus, himself, was speaking to them in a way that they wouldn't be able to understand, purposefully. I don't read it that they were CHOOSING not to understand it.

I have always left myself open and willing, . . . but the understanding of many biblical concepts I cannot agree with, based not upon my willingness to NOT understand, but because I read them in the way I only can.

 

[kevkelsar]

There are many times where we are expected to completely disregard any belief we may have or have had for many years in order to accept and live a true teaching from God. I've been there many times, and expect I still will experience that. It's humbling, but a necessary part of being a disciple of Christ. Trust me, I know it's hard to admit that we are completely wrong in our thinking sometimes. Just have an open heart and willing mind to accept change and the understanding should come.

 

[Orion]

Curious, . . . .If I knew I was wrong, why would I continue to walk in it?

 

[kevkelsar]

Curious, . . . .If I knew I was wrong, why would I continue to walk in it?

That's just it, if we don't know we are wrong, why would we change? However, if we know we are wrong and choose to continue to walk in it, I think there are many reasons that contribute to this. It's a habit that's hard to break, it's an addiction that requires some major effort to overcome, it's something we just don't want to let go, and countless other reasons. If we know we are wrong and simply choose not to change, then there are most likely other underlying factors, such as a lack of faith.

 

[Orion]

I see, . . . .but I guess my point is, I have tried HARD to be open in my years in Christianity, but "the truth" for me is not what IS believed in Christianity. For me to accept it, I would have to be shown how it IS true, otherwise, I wouldn't be true to my own personal convictions. So far, I've not heard any calling, and don't feel drawn towards it. I'm not wrong about that.

 

[kevkelsar]

I just noticed your sig. Do you feel God has not given you faith? Faith is the first principle of the Gospel. Without it, we can never trust God, rely on Him, or trust that His teachings really are Truth.

However, faith is not given, but gained. I guess what I mean is we all have some faith, whether that be minuscule or great. But faith is like a muscle, it only grows as we use it, exercise it. And someone cannot give us faith, we have our own that has to be nurtured and grown. On the other side, if we do not exercise our faith, it will shrink and become weak again. It is something we have to exercise many times every day.

This is probably getting way off topic. But from what little I have read of your thoughts/feelings, it seems that your faith is lacking to trust God. I'm not knocking you for that because I am no better than you, but just hope to encourage you in some way to exercise that faith so that it can grow.

 

[Orion]

I guess I was going by Romans 12:3 which says, "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

As for having faith, then, an in accordance to what I see in nature, science, and morality, I guess I don't have that faith, but my own personal convictions on those subjects, which differ from what I find in biblical texts. And that's the point of this thread. My church states that if you were once saved, then fell away, it is probably because you were never really saved in the first place. So I started asking myself that question, and came to the conclusion that I WAS never saved, and doubt I will be, since I can't agree with everything in the bible.

 

[kevkelsar]

Then I may have a difficult time discussing that with you. My definition of "saved" and how one is "saved" is very different than mainstream Christianity. I understand what the general consensus of "saved" means and how one becomes "saved" of those on these forums through my many conversations with Christians. But I could not with honesty and integrity counsel you on something I don't believe (meaning the definition and method of being "saved," I certainly believe that we can become "saved") in myself.

And, yes, putting "saved" in quotations is very much on purpose. This is a result of my belief of what being "saved" means. I would use a few different words to explain what I believe it to be.

 

[Orion]

That's okay, kev. I've recently came to the understanding that, whatever is real truth, will find me along the way as I look for it. I can only trust that, in the end, that real truth will hold the most pull over me, and will win.

 

[kevkelsar]

Good to hear, that's a great perspective to have.

 

[stranger]

Orion wrote...

I have always left myself open and willing, . . . but the understanding of many biblical concepts I cannot agree with, based not upon my willingness to NOT understand, but because I read them in the way I only can.

Hello Orion,

OK. I read the following words with interest recently ..'fundamental compatibility between Christian belief and human life develops only in those who accept the truth of divine revelation' (R Cessario.) While the context of the statement was about the sacraments, the comment is a valid one given the ensuring battle between the flesh and the Spirit in all who (want to) believe.

So I would guess your objections arise from a clash of world views.

blessings

 

[seekandlisten]

I guess I was going by Romans 12:3 which says, "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

As for having faith, then, an in accordance to what I see in nature, science, and morality, I guess I don't have that faith, but my own personal convictions on those subjects, which differ from what I find in biblical texts. And that's the point of this thread. My church states that if you were once saved, then fell away, it is probably because you were never really saved in the first place. So I started asking myself that question, and came to the conclusion that I WAS never saved, and doubt I will be, since I can't agree with everything in the bible.

First off, I don't think you should put much merit into "man" telling you you are not saved. How would they know. Remember the story of the prodigal son? We need to be continually saved as we are all sinners and not matter what title you apply to yourself religiously still makes you a sinner and it is only through Christ's work that we even have a chance through Jesus to be brought back into God's glory.

I grew up in a christian home, went to a christian private school, and was involved in a church the majority of my life. I was "saved" when i was 12 but according to what a christian is that is not what i was. Yes on the outside I was a christian, but that's not what God looks at is it, one of the biggest problems with organized religion. Now, when i was 17 I had an experience that i cannot deny to this day being God's intervention in my life and I will always believe in God because of that experience. Even when I wanted nothing to do with christianity I believed in God still. Suprisingly enough it was someone who believed in evolution that I got into a debate with that got me back on the path in seeking God. Now I don't go to church and I don't think that's a problem. I don't associate myself with any denomination or religion but I do follow Jesus teaching and the things found in Scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I'll leave at that for now but if you have any questions about anything don't hesitate to ask.

 

[Elf]

You are free to feel that way, handy. Are you sure that "everyone is capable of having faith"? Do you really think that I haven't tried? Do you really???

I believed you have tried.

Do you think I'm here for the fun of it . . . or that my questions, past and present, weren't sincere? Yes, I have heard many people give very biblical advice. . .

I'm sure you wont lack that here.

but I because I don't feel it, I'm just here to basically cause trouble. We ARE talking about "having a relationship with God", . . . . and I can honestly say that I don't feel anything of the sort, regardless of how much I looked for it.

So you have looked for God huh? Can I ask why?

Okay, so you're not sad for me. Accepted. Are you sad at the thought of me going to Hell?

This is a genuine question Orion, how do you feel about Hell?

I'm curious because the answer to your situation may be in the answer you give.