Discussion and Questions and Comments on Lesson 2

[Jim Parker]

Say anything!

 

[Tessa]

Hi Jim
Can you explain to me how man is higher order than the angels yet Jesus was made a little lower than the angels ?

Not arguing or disagreeing I just want to understand it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Can you explain to me how man is higher order than the angels yet Jesus was made a little lower than the angels ?

That's Psalm 8.
Psa 8:5
For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
The word rendered "angels" is "Elohiym."
The angels were not created in the Image and Likeness of God (Elohiym) as man was.
But man (Adam) managed to deface that image and likeness through sin.
Jesus, when He took on flesh as one of us,
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Angels do not suffer physical death.
Jesus, though without sin, took the form of fallen man who does suffer death, in order to conquer death by His resurrection.

So, man was created a higher order than the angels but lost that glory through sin.

It will be fully regained at the resurrection.

Of, so it seems to me.

 

[Tessa]

So man was created higher than the angels but because of sin became lower than the angels?
So then when Jesus was made flesh He became lower than the angels because of our sins? But now Jesus has regained His original status in heaven?

 

[Jim Parker]

So man was created higher than the angels but because of sin became lower than the angels?
So then when Jesus was made flesh He became lower than the angels because of our sins? But now Jesus has regained His original status in heaven?

Phl 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When Jesus came, mankind was in its fallen state.
Jesus took on that fallen state.
He never ceased being God but at the same time He became a totally human man.
When He died and rose from the dead, He returned to the throne of the Father as both God and deified man. Having already been God, He also became the glorified man that we will become at the resurrection.

The man Jesus of Nazareth was God in flesh.
The believer is flesh in whom dwells God.
At the resurrection we will be like Jesus.

Phl 3:20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Does that help?

 

[Tessa]

Yes that's wonderful, thanks Jim

 

[Truthfrees]

The Elohist flood lasts a (Hebrew) year while the Yawist flood lasts for three weeks after the forty days of rain.

can you clarify?

are you saying the world wide flood lasted 61 days rather than 1 year? - that the earth was dry and usable for living after 61 days?

if so can you quote any academic sources or timeline charts that calculate the flood lasting 61 days rather than 1 year?

 

[Jim Parker]

are you saying the world wide flood lasted 61 days rather than 1 year? - that the earth was dry and usable for living after 61 days?

There are two flood stories woven together.
One flood lasts 40 days of raining plus three weeks.
The other flood lasts 40 days of rain; 150 days of waters increasing; 150 days of waters decreasing, and 27 days of the land drying.

According to the Yahwist tradition, the flood lasts three weeks after the 40 days of rain. (8:6-12)

According to the Elohist tradition, the flood lasts a (Hebrew) year.
GE 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. 12 The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
GE 7: 24 And the waters swelled on the earth for one hundred fifty days.
GE 8:1 But Elohim remembered Noah and all the wild animals and all the domestic animals that were with him in the ark. And Elohim made a wind blow over the earth, and the waters subsided; 2 the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, At the end of one hundred fifty days the waters had abated; 4 and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains appeared.
GE 8:13 In the six hundred first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from the earth; 14 In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry. 15 Then Elohim said to Noah, 16 "Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons' wives with you

So the Elohist flood starts on the second month of one year and goes to the second month of the next year when God tells Noah to leave the ark.

So there are two versions of the flood story very skillfully woven together. (Shakespeare, eat your heart out.)

 

[Truthfrees]

There are two flood stories woven together.
One flood lasts 40 days of raining plus three weeks.
The other flood lasts 40 days of rain; 150 days of waters increasing; 150 days of waters decreasing, and 27 days of the land drying.

According to the Yahwist tradition, the flood lasts three weeks after the 40 days of rain. (8:6-12)

According to the Elohist tradition, the flood lasts a (Hebrew) year.
GE 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. 12 The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
GE 7: 24 And the waters swelled on the earth for one hundred fifty days.
GE 8:1 But Elohim remembered Noah and all the wild animals and all the domestic animals that were with him in the ark. And Elohim made a wind blow over the earth, and the waters subsided; 2 the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, At the end of one hundred fifty days the waters had abated; 4 and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains appeared.
GE 8:13 In the six hundred first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from the earth; 14 In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry. 15 Then Elohim said to Noah, 16 "Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons' wives with you

So the Elohist flood starts on the second month of one year and goes to the second month of the next year when God tells Noah to leave the ark.

So there are two versions of the flood story very skillfully woven together. (Shakespeare, eat your heart out.)

i tried to find some info on the internet about how long the flood lasts - including yahwist and elohist

i could only find info on 1 year flood vs 1 year 11 days - i can't find anything about 3 week flood or 40 days + 3 week flood - or the yahwist flood length compared to elohist - etc

i googled contradictions in the bible concerning the length of the flood

i tried googling every tag i could think of and can't find anyone promoting a 40 day+ 3 week flood

that is why i was asking you for some link to a group that espouses a flood shorter than 1 year

because it is interwoven could there be a different meaning than a 61 day flood vs a 1 year flood?

could the 3 weeks be about some other issue? - like maybe the whole earth was still mucky for 1 year so the dove found something in 61 days but the rest of the ark inhabitants were still ark dwellers?

1 year would allow all the dead creatures and plants to decompose - 61 days would be a stinky mucky mess of dead creatures and plants - even ancients would know that decomposition needs longer than 61 days - which would make the bible look really ridiculous to espouse a 61 day flood

of all the things skeptics think are bible contradictions the length of the flood doesn't seem to be listed as far as i can find - just looking for some help on finding such info

God bless you

 

[Jim Parker]

i tried to find some info on the internet about how long the flood lasts - including yahwist and elohist

i could only find info on 1 year flood vs 1 year 11 days - i can't find anything about 3 week flood or 40 days + 3 week flood - or the yahwist flood length compared to elohist - etc

Look at what I posted in the lesson.

Both the Yahwist and Elohist traditions are there.

I doubt you will find much on the internet that gets into this kind of detail. It's a pretty specialized field.

For a good book on the subject, see Before Abraham Was by Kikowada and Quinn. Ancient Near Eastern languages, literature and culture are their specialties.

of all the things skeptics think are bible contradictions the length of the flood doesn't seem to be listed as far as i can find

There is a joke that says "Vegetarian" is an American Indian word for "Can't hunt."
For me, often when a person says he is a skeptic, I hear; "I'm looking for an excuse not to believe so I can maintain the notion that there is no God to whom I will give an answer for my bad behavior."

 

[Truthfrees]

For me, often when a person says he is a skeptic, I hear; "I'm looking for an excuse not to believe so I can maintain the notion that there is no God to whom I will give an answer for my bad behavior."

yes - i would agree with that

 

[jasonc]

Try chabad.org.look into the ramban commentary ,or Adam Clarke who also says much of the same.

The chabad,abd the rabbinical teachings of them and ramban are not messaniac but you will see how they see it and it's likely to fit.I posted much of what the jews say about the Name.the flood is also a big contraversy to them.chabad takes it literally as did ramban and he dismissed the local flood idea of rashi,and goes into depth

 

[Truthfrees]

Try chabad.org.look into the ramban commentary ,or Adam Clarke who also says much of the same.

The chabad,abd the rabbinical teachings of them and ramban are not messaniac but you will see how they see it and it's likely to fit.I posted much of what the jews say about the Name.the flood is also a big contraversy to them.chabad takes it literally as did ramban and he dismissed the local flood idea of rashi,and goes into depth

i did search chabad and myjewishlearning and talmud and mishnah

they said the flood lasted a year

 

[jasonc]

i did search chabad and myjewishlearning and talmud and mishnah

they said the flood lasted a year

StoveBolts perhaps he will know as he has the commentary I mentioned.

 

[Truthfrees]

StoveBolts perhaps he will know as he has the commentary I mentioned.

thanks - i look forward to any links available

adam clarke says 150 days plus:

1. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/genesis/7.htm

2. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/genesis/8.htm

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

This is a hard lesson to digest. If the flood is not one story but an interweaving of two stories then how do we take it and apply it? How do we say the flood was true when it wove two traditions together instead of showing which ones were true?

I've been trying to reread Genesis 6-9 to see if I can still read it as one story instead of two. To say that the bible is still the standard we hold everything else accountable by. But if this is not so, then how do we read it without harming our faith? Without harming our trust in the bible?

Is it because of an importance of numbers that there are two versions woven togethers. Forty days is a repeated time frame when people are in their tribulation. From Jonah being in the belly of a fish to Jesus being in the wilderness and tested for forty days, to the flood raining for forty days. If that why there are two dates saying when the rain stopped? Or did the rain stop in two different ways? After 40 days it did not rain anymore to increase the flood, and after 150 days it did not rain any more at all?

Jim, how can a person walk away from this kind of lesson and not have your faith shaken up a bit?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

i tried to find some info on the internet about how long the flood lasts - including yahwist and elohist

i could only find info on 1 year flood vs 1 year 11 days - i can't find anything about 3 week flood or 40 days + 3 week flood - or the yahwist flood length compared to elohist - etc

i googled contradictions in the bible concerning the length of the flood

i tried googling every tag i could think of and can't find anyone promoting a 40 day+ 3 week flood

that is why i was asking you for some link to a group that espouses a flood shorter than 1 year

because it is interwoven could there be a different meaning than a 61 day flood vs a 1 year flood?

could the 3 weeks be about some other issue? - like maybe the whole earth was still mucky for 1 year so the dove found something in 61 days but the rest of the ark inhabitants were still ark dwellers?

1 year would allow all the dead creatures and plants to decompose - 61 days would be a stinky mucky mess of dead creatures and plants - even ancients would know that decomposition needs longer than 61 days - which would make the bible look really ridiculous to espouse a 61 day flood

of all the things skeptics think are bible contradictions the length of the flood doesn't seem to be listed as far as i can find - just looking for some help on finding such info

God bless you

This might help. I just googled Yahwist and was going to google Elohish next when I found a Wikipedia page that goes into detail of both and the theory of multiple sources in writting the first 5 books of the Old Testiment.

For Yahwist on Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahwist

For Elohish on Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohist

Both pages go into detail of the theoy and of characteristics theorized for each source or tradition that the first 5 books are written from. Apparently by this perspective there are 4 sources. Not just Yahwist and Elohist.

Not sure what to make of it all right now, except that I hope to see more to it then there is presented in Wikipedia, because I still want to hold true to the verse that says all scripture is God breathed and good for teaching, encouraging, rebuking, and correction.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Phl 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When Jesus came, mankind was in its fallen state.
Jesus took on that fallen state.
He never ceased being God but at the same time He became a totally human man.
When He died and rose from the dead, He returned to the throne of the Father as both God and deified man. Having already been God, He also became the glorified man that we will become at the resurrection.

The man Jesus of Nazareth was God in flesh.
The believer is flesh in whom dwells God.
At the resurrection we will be like Jesus.

Phl 3:20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Does that help?

Now I'm the one who is a bit confused by this and I also have got some questions of my own.


1. If Adam and Eve were married (without giving them a chance to fall in love with each other) was that considered an arranged marrige then? (By God)


2. How could Adam and Eve not be aware of the fact that they were naked?


3. Did the forbidden fruit represent sin? And if it did, why was sex between Adam and Eve considered sinful if they were already married?

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Oh and I have one more question. Does being fruitful and multiplying a commandment for Christians to have children?

 

[Jim Parker]

How do we say the flood was true when it wove two traditions together instead of showing which ones were true?

What is important is the message, not the details.
Remember, they didn't "do" history like we do to day.
The important part was not the details of the event but what the event meant.
So, the Yahwist (Priestly) tradition included 7 pairs of clean animals and a sacrifice immediately upon exiting the ark. They make sure the requirements of the sacrificial system are adhered to.
But the Elohist tradition does not.

But if this is not so, then how do we read it without harming our faith? Without harming our trust in the bible?

Which is the important part, the details of the flood (which ancient near eastern people weren't that interested in) or what God is telling us about why He sent the flood?

It is important that the Bible is not read as if it were the transcript of a video tape of historical events.
With History, the writer reports the events and we have to figure out what they mean to us.
With the Bible, God uses events to convey His meaning to us.
So what is important?
(1) God is very patient but, eventually His tolerance will come to an end, and then He will put an end to sin even if it means wiping out the entire world population except for 8 people. (And 8 is the number of new beginnings which is another communication from God.)
(2) Overpopulation is NEVER a problem. New life is ALWAYS a blessing.
Two witnesses tell us the story of the flood; one is Elohist and one is Yahwist.

If that why there are two dates saying when the rain stopped? Or did the rain stop in two different ways? After 40 days it did not rain anymore to increase the flood, and after 150 days it did not rain any more at all?

In both stories the rain stopped after 40 days.
In one story, the waters continued to increase for 150 days. (Fountains of the deep?)

So, if someone says the flood story is not historical, you can say, "No, it's not history. It's Truth."
You can say that because the modern idea of "history" has no place in the Old Testament.
God may prolong a sinner's life to give him more time to repent and have eternal life. But at some point, the sinner will die and there will be no opportunity to be saved after that point.

Hope that helps.

But keep asking. That's what this class is for.