Discussion and Questions and Comments on Lesson 2

[jasonc]

Am I allowed to answer a question for heisrisen? Its in regards to Ish and Chava , also known as Adam and Eve. Those names are btw also titles and described their acts and purpose. Ish, Man, Chava, the mother of all Living. simple and to the point. Most Jews see them as real persons but one can argue they are a story(allegory) in the names given. Jews do say that is there but dont focus on that as you will miss the persons that caused a problem and why.

 

[jasonc]

I must add as we get into some Hebrew names, I will post the Hebrew name. ie Isaac, Yitzhak, Samuel, Schumuel. My uncle's middle name was Samuel. it means either He heard, God heard, He who hears.

 

[Truthfrees]

This might help. I just googled Yahwist and was going to google Elohish next when I found a Wikipedia page that goes into detail of both and the theory of multiple sources in writting the first 5 books of the Old Testiment.

For Yahwist on Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahwist

For Elohish on Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohist

Both pages go into detail of the theoy and of characteristics theorized for each source or tradition that the first 5 books are written from. Apparently by this perspective there are 4 sources. Not just Yahwist and Elohist.

Not sure what to make of it all right now, except that I hope to see more to it then there is presented in Wikipedia, because I still want to hold true to the verse that says all scripture is God breathed and good for teaching, encouraging, rebuking, and correction.

thanks -

yes i found lots on yahwist and elohist but nothing that described a flood less than 1 year - i was looking to see who has online material about how they calculate the flood to be less than 1 year - so far there are disagreements on 1 year vs 1 year and 11 days - but nothing less than a year

there's lots on flood controversies - just nothing about the duration of the flood

 

[Jim Parker]

Am I allowed to answer a question for heisrisen? Its in regards to Ish and Chava , also known as Adam and Eve. Those names are btw also titles and described their acts and purpose. Ish, Man, Chava, the mother of all Living. simple and to the point. Most Jews see them as real persons but one can argue they are a story(allegory) in the names given. Jews do say that is there but dont focus on that as you will miss the persons that caused a problem and why.

Thanks!

 

[Truthfrees]

What is important is the message, not the details.
Remember, they didn't "do" history like we do to day.
The important part was not the details of the event but what the event meant.
So, the Yahwist (Priestly) tradition included 7 pairs of clean animals and a sacrifice immediately upon exiting the ark. They make sure the requirements of the sacrificial system are adhered to.
But the Elohist tradition does not.

Which is the important part, the details of the flood (which ancient near eastern people weren't that interested in) or what God is telling us about why He sent the flood?

It is important that the Bible is not read as if it were the transcript of a video tape of historical events.
With History, the writer reports the events and we have to figure out what they mean to us.
With the Bible, God uses events to convey His meaning to us.
So what is important?
(1) God is very patient but, eventually His tolerance will come to an end, and then He will put an end to sin even if it means wiping out the entire world population except for 8 people. (And 8 is the number of new beginnings which is another communication from God.)
(2) Overpopulation is NEVER a problem. New life is ALWAYS a blessing.
Two witnesses tell us the story of the flood; one is Elohist and one is Yahwist.

In both stories the rain stopped after 40 days.
In one story, the waters continued to increase for 150 days. (Fountains of the deep?)

So, if someone says the flood story is not historical, you can say, "No, it's not history. It's Truth."
You can say that because the modern idea of "history" has no place in the Old Testament.
God may prolong a sinner's life to give him more time to repent and have eternal life. But at some point, the sinner will die and there will be no opportunity to be saved after that point.

Hope that helps.

But keep asking. That's what this class is for.

why do scholars believe it is 2 stories woven into one?

when i read it i see one story with various details that need to be properly interpreted

when did scholars first decide that various scribes started interweaving their own stories with older stories?

i know there are post evolutionist forensic bible translators that believe the oldest known bible manuscripts are in error and they are reconstructing them and calling their new work redacted texts of original manuscripts

i have heard many scholars and theologians say the bible is a collection of man's writing about his experiences with God - is that true?

or is the bible God inspiring various men to receive and write down His words? - 2 Timothy 3:16

God bless you

 

[jasonc]

Oh and I have one more question. Does being fruitful and multiplying a commandment for Christians to have children?

It can but Paul also said that one ought not to marry if you can.not all are called to be parents nor marry.

I choose not too have kids

 

[Jim Parker]

why do scholars believe it is 2 stories woven into one?

Because there are clear indications that there are two stories.
One story had Noah bring 2 of each animal; the other has him bringing 7 pairs of "clean" animals.
One story has the flood lasting 40 days of rain and then three weeks while the other has the flood lasting a year.
In one story, God opens the ark; in the other Noah does.

I separated the two stories for you.

when did scholars first decide that various scribes started interweaving their own stories with older stories?

I don't think they did.
The two stories represent two ancient traditions of the experience of God.
There no suggestion that scribes started weaving their own stories.

i have heard many scholars and theologians say the bible is a collection of man's writing about his experiences with God - is that true?

I wold say, "No."
Every writer did have a personal experience with God just as every indivual's experience of everything is he own personal experience.

But the Bible is not about individuals' personal experiences. It is about God's self-revelation to man.
My experience comes from me.
God's revelation comes from Him.

or is the bible God inspiring various men to receive and write down His words? -

That depends on what you mean by "His words." If you mean that God dictates the exact words that the writer is to use then I doubt it.

God inspires men to write. I think men write using their own vocabularies and their own writing skills. It's not the exact words that are the key to the communication. The key is God's message.

And, remember, we are reading writings from ancient, near eastern literature that is imbued with the culture of their time and place, which have been translated into the language of a modern, western, scientific/industrial/technical/information-age culture. So, even if God dictated the exact words that the writer was to write, when they were translated into modern English, something is lost in translation from ancient Hebrew and Greek to Modern English.

But God, who told the disciples to preach the Gospel to the whole world, knew that would happen. So what He communicated was His message, not the words.

Am I making any sense?

 

[Jim Parker]

Does being fruitful and multiplying a commandment for Christians to have children?

That was a general commandment for mankind.
With over 7 billion people on the earth, I think we've handled that one pretty well.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

It can but Paul also said that one ought not to marry if you can.not all are called to be parents nor marry.

I choose not too have kids

Really?? For some reason I thought you had kids.

That was a general commandment for mankind.
With over 7 billion people on the earth, I think we've handled that one pretty well.

Makes perfect sense to me, but what about my other questions?

 

[Jim Parker]

i did search chabad and myjewishlearning and talmud and mishnah they said the flood lasted a year

Ok. I'll try to simplify it.

The Yahwist Flood: 40 days and three weeks.

GE 7:17 The flood continued forty days on the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.

GE 8:6 At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the ark that he had made 7 and sent out the raven; and it went to and fro until the waters were dried up from the earth.
8 Then he sent out the dove from him, to see if the waters had subsided from the face of the ground; 9 but the dove found no place to set its foot, and it returned to him to the ark, for the waters were still on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took it and brought it into the ark with him.
10 He waited another seven days, and again he sent out the dove from the ark;
11 and the dove came back to him in the evening, and there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf; so Noah knew that the waters had subsided from the earth.
12 Then he waited another seven days, and sent out the dove; and it did not return to him any more.


The Elohist Flood: One year from the rain starting on the second month of the 600th year of Noah’s life and the flood continuing until the second month of the 601st year of Noah’s life when the earth was dry.

GE 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. 12 The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

GE 7: 24 And the waters swelled on the earth for one hundred fifty days.

GE 8:1 But Elohim remembered Noah and all the wild animals and all the domestic animals that were with him in the ark. And Elohim made a wind blow over the earth, and the waters subsided; 2 the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, … At the end of one hundred fifty days the waters had abated;

GE 8:13 In the six hundred first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from the earth; 14 In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry.

 

[Razeontherock]

Because there are clear indications that there are two stories.
One story had Noah bring 2 of each animal; the other has him bringing 7 pairs of "clean" animals.
One story has the flood lasting 40 days of rain and then three weeks while the other has the flood lasting a year.
In one story, God opens the ark; in the other Noah does.

I love this! Militant atheists that relish playing "gotcha" with Scripture have NO idea what they're talking about, and this gives strong footing to respond

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Now I'm the one who is a bit confused by this and I also have got some questions of my own.


1. If Adam and Eve were married (without giving them a chance to fall in love with each other) was that considered an arranged marrige then? (By God)


2. How could Adam and Eve not be aware of the fact that they were naked?


3. Did the forbidden fruit represent sin? And if it did, why was sex between Adam and Eve considered sinful if they were already married?

I'm quoting my own post because I'm not sure whether or not anybody ever saw my other questions.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Now I'm the one who is a bit confused by this and I also have got some questions of my own.


1. If Adam and Eve were married (without giving them a chance to fall in love with each other) was that considered an arranged marrige then? (By God)


2. How could Adam and Eve not be aware of the fact that they were naked?


3. Did the forbidden fruit represent sin? And if it did, why was sex between Adam and Eve considered sinful if they were already married?

1). How much time does it take to fall in love? It sounds like at least from Aadam's perspective he was very happy to finally have a companion. Probabley felt this way right away. As for it being an arranged marriage, I would trust God's choice over any of my own choices. If only we were all so lucky to have the person God should choose for us set right in front of us with, and the knowledge they are God's choice for us. With that in mind they didn't even have to go through the heartbreak of previous relationships.

2). there are some things in life your not aware about until you have something to compare it to. Without any clothes yet they were probabley fine with how they were. But eating the forbidden fruit must have changed something. They might have looked at eachother differently and wanted to cover up themselves because of that. Or there might have been something else only known after eating the fruit.

3). The forbidden fruit, (fruit of the knowledge of good and evil), might have represented something, but I think the sin was 2 part. That they disobeyed God is one part. And the other is they introduced evil into their minds, so sin became part of them. It became an option where as before they might not have known sin.

Consider it like Cain killing Able. He hid it from God when God questioned him about it. So he knew it was wrong and did it anyways. The sin of murder might not have been considered any more then not being naked was considered to Adam and Eve before they had the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

As for having sex. I don't think the bible says Adam and Eve sinned by having sex. But it might say that sin was passed on to the next generation. I don't know, but I think that's an interpretation of the words that they sinned by having sex, instead of what the bible actually says,

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

1). How much time does it take to fall in love? It sounds like at least from Aadam's perspective he was very happy to finally have a companion. Probabley felt this way right away. As for it being an arranged marriage, I would trust God's choice over any of my own choices. If only we were all so lucky to have the person God should choose for us set right in front of us with, and the knowledge they are God's choice for us. With that in mind they didn't even have to go through the heartbreak of previous relationships.

2). there are some things in life your not aware about until you have something to compare it to. Without any clothes yet they were probabley fine with how they were. But eating the forbidden fruit must have changed something. They might have looked at eachother differently and wanted to cover up themselves because of that. Or there might have been something else only known after eating the fruit.

3). The forbidden fruit, (fruit of the knowledge of good and evil), might have represented something, but I think the sin was 2 part. That they disobeyed God is one part. And the other is they introduced evil into their minds, so sin became part of them. It became an option where as before they might not have known sin.

Consider it like Cain killing Able. He hid it from God when God questioned him about it. So he knew it was wrong and did it anyways. The sin of murder might not have been considered any more then not being naked was considered to Adam and Eve before they had the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

As for having sex. I don't think the bible says Adam and Eve sinned by having sex. But it might say that sin was passed on to the next generation. I don't know, but I think that's an interpretation of the words that they sinned by having sex, instead of what the bible actually says,

Thank you Heath, I understand everything now except your answer to my sex question.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm quoting my own post because I'm not sure whether or not anybody ever saw my other questions.

"Falling in love" and then getting marries is a modern, western idea.
"Falling in love" is a romantic notion popularized by novels and Hollywood.
Arranged marriages have been the standard for most societies for thousands of years.
Gen 24:2-4
So Abraham said to the oldest servant of his house, who ruled over all that he had, “Please, put your hand under my thigh, and I will make you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell; but you shall go to my country and to my family, and take a wife for my son Isaac.”
Isaac wasn't even involved in the process!


jim

 

[Jim Parker]

i did search chabad and myjewishlearning and talmud and mishnah they said the flood lasted a year

The length of the flood is not the point that is being made by the Biblical flood story.
Don't get bogged down in the details of the story and miss the points of the story.

1. God is patient with people who sin not wanting anyone to perish but that all would come to repentance and be saved.
2. God's patience is not unlimited. When sin gets so bad that it becomes a threat to humanity, He puts an end to it.
He did that with the flood.
He did that with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
He did that when He sent the Israelites into Canaan with instructions for them to kill them all along with their cattle.
3. Over-population is not an issue; new life is always a blessing.

Remember, this is Literature, not History.

jim

 

[Razeontherock]

I don't think the bible says Adam and Eve sinned by having sex. But it might say that sin was passed on to the next generation. I don't know, but I think that's an interpretation of the words that they sinned by having sex, instead of what the bible actually says,

Addressing April's question, what the Bible does NOT say is often just as important as what it does say. For instance, we have no idea if they lived in Eden for a million years, or one afternoon; it simply doesn't say. I think it implies they didn't have sex until after they sinned, but it doesn't say they sinned to do so.

Most often, we can tell we're getting away from the point of a Biblical story when it doesn't tell us what we're pursuing. Whereas sometimes God says the same thing repeatedly; that let's us know it's really important!

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Addressing April's question, what the Bible does NOT say is often just as important as what it does say. For instance, we have no idea if they lived in Eden for a million years, or one afternoon; it simply doesn't say. I think it implies they didn't have sex until after they sinned, but it doesn't say they sinned to do so.

Most often, we can tell we're getting away from the point of a Biblical story when it doesn't tell us what we're pursuing. Whereas sometimes God says the same thing repeatedly; that let's us know it's really important!

Thanks, that definitely makes a whole lot more sense to me when you put it like that.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

I have just a couple more questions.


1. What does the Bible mean again when it talks about being created God's image?


2. How could the Lord have rested on the seventh day when He never rests or sleeps?

 

[WIP]

That was a general commandment for mankind.
With over 7 billion people on the earth, I think we've handled that one pretty well.

Jim;
What is the basis used to identify God's phrase, "Be fruitful and multiply" as a commandment and not just a blessing? Sort of like when we wish someone to do well we might say, "Break a leg." That's certainly not an order.