Divisions among Christians

[Heidi]

Paul tells us what causes division among Christians in 1 Corinthians 1:10-13,

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this; one of you says; "I follow Paul', another, "I follow Apollos' still another, 'I follow Cehps'till another, 'I follow Christ."

But we are not perfectly united because some follow Luther, others follow the pope, still others follow Calvin, Joseph Smith, William Miller, etc. And that's why Jesus says that we have one teacher and that is the Christ."

And that's why Paul also said; "No doubt there will be divisions among you to show who has God's approval." So we are to stand up for the word of God and those who don't agree with the word of God are those who are causing the division! :x

So if you don't want division, then don't add, subtract, change, erase or ignore any of God's word. Then we will all be in agreement. It's really not hard at all because it takes effort to change or twist the bible.

 

[Rick W]

There are certain beliefs that are foremost to Christianity. Not that others are unimportant but rather what is absolute to salvation. I may not believe that I must be baptised to acquire salvation. If others believe so then I have no major problems with it. And of course I may be rebuked by those that do believe that. Yet, when the Baptists came to Salt Lake City some years backs we joined efforts, shoulder to shoulder, witnessing on the streets as one collective whole.

I realize Catholic doctrine is a hot button around here and though I'm not Catholic I'm willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with them to get a mission accomplished. I don't agree with all of Catholic doctrine, in fact I may disagree more than I agree, but there are certain issues of utmost importance I happen to agree with. Especially concerning the Deity of Christ and who He is. If someone wants to lift up any biblical character or even Ronald McDonald provided Christ is the absolute and supreme authority through who He is then I will still be more than pleased to stand firm with them in Christ.

I've been rebuked by the priest (Or father in Catholic words) for taking communion (I'm not Catholic) at a spaghetti dinner hosted by the church in the area. Though I felt slighted (a knee-jerk reaction) and knew exactly what I was doing concerning communion I didn't stand there to argue nor did I hold anything against him or that church. He gave me a wafer that I'd never seen before and I suppose he noticed my curiosity. You would have had to have been there to fully appreciate it though. :D And he was good enough to hold his peace until afterwards.

 

[Free]

It really is not that simple Heidi, not even close.

 

[cyberjosh]

I have to agree with Free here. And until we go through the knity-gritty issues individually here on this forum we won't even get close to the point you are talking about (as unfortunate as that is).

~Josh

 

[lovely]

The thing is, if we are unified in the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that He has come in the flesh, and was resurrected, for our sin to provide the only way to salvation...and if we love God above all else, and each other more than ourselves, and if we honestly seek to obey God within the grace, and faith, that He has given us, then this is all we really need to be part of the body, in my opinion anyway. This is evidence of the Holy Spirit in us according to John.

I think it is easy to point fingers at younger brothers and sisters, older brothers and sisters, or those who may belong to certain denominations I do not agree with, and simply say they are not believers...or think it...because we do not agree on matters of Scripture. I am guilty of doing this as a knee-jerk reaction, but I don't like it when it's done to me. I can't tell you how many times someone has told me that I am in error, or in a cult, because I believe that God is ultimately sovereign when it comes to preserving the saints. (I don't want to argue about that in this thread, btw.)

I think Heidi is right about how we should view, and apply, Scripture, but I don't believe it is easy either...it's not for me anyway. I need God's grace more in this area. I am still learning how to only hear God, and only esteem His Word...and just when I think I have learned this...I fail to do it. I also have a lot more learning to do before I can honestly say that I do not ignore Scriptures. I have twisted things before, and it has taken someone's disagreement to show me that I was even doing this...I think it is usually done in ignorance by most. The thing is, sometimes beliefs are like training wheels until we are able to take the next step in Him (when they come off in a certain area)...that is usually when we can hear the correction of other brothers and sisters. I think fearing God also helps.

Sometimes things that divide us are good...they can strengthen us and teach us, and as I said grow us. I am now attending a church that is non-denominational, and one of the things I have noticed about the brothers that share is that they do not all agree. I think that it is such a blessing to hear believers share the Word and not feel as if they have to agree on every matter...and yet Christ's love is still there. Will people get angry and leave? Maybe. Will some even leave in peace unable to tolerate some of the teachings or beliefs? Maybe. I would say that if they are led by the Spirit to do that, then they should. If it is something done in the flesh, though, they are in more error than the brother who teaches something wrong. For now, it is a small church and I believe the people there are attracted to the true unity in diversity. I will say that we left a reformed church, but it was because of distance. We did not agree with them entirely, but we were content to worship there, and we left in peace to attend some place closer to our farm.

Anyway, it would be nice if we could all apply what Heidi said about the Word of God, and I think we should be striving to do that, but I think most of us fall short in this area, to be honest. Sometimes there are things Scripture seems to be unclear about, and I just don't know the answer to them. I don't know why we are so divisive at times. Maybe it's because we are at different points in our walk, or maybe it's because we are just bickering children living in a sinful world, or maybe we truly are gifted differently to be used in our part of the body...maybe it is all and more. I do think we can all agree on the two main commandments...to love God with all, and to love one another. Maybe if we got these two things down in application, then the rest would align itself. In Heaven, I suppose.

The Lord bless all of you...good topic, Heidi.

 

[Heidi]

There are certain beliefs that are foremost to Christianity. Not that others are unimportant but rather what is absolute to salvation. I may not believe that I must be baptised to acquire salvation. If others believe so then I have no major problems with it. And of course I may be rebuked by those that do believe that. Yet, when the Baptists came to Salt Lake City some years backs we joined efforts, shoulder to shoulder, witnessing on the streets as one collective whole.

I realize Catholic doctrine is a hot button around here and though I'm not Catholic I'm willing to stand shoulder to shoulder with them to get a mission accomplished. I don't agree with all of Catholic doctrine, in fact I may disagree more than I agree, but there are certain issues of utmost importance I happen to agree with. Especially concerning the Deity of Christ and who He is. If someone wants to lift up any biblical character or even Ronald McDonald provided Christ is the absolute and supreme authority through who He is then I will still be more than pleased to stand firm with them in Christ.

I've been rebuked by the priest (Or father in Catholic words) for taking communion (I'm not Catholic) at a spaghetti dinner hosted by the church in the area. Though I felt slighted (a knee-jerk reaction) and knew exactly what I was doing concerning communion I didn't stand there to argue nor did I hold anything against him or that church. He gave me a wafer that I'd never seen before and I suppose he noticed my curiosity. You would have had to have been there to fully appreciate it though. :D And he was good enough to hold his peace until afterwards.

Sorry, but as Jesus tells us, there are those who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." So how can we tell whose hearts are close to God and whose aren't? By their beliefs. The catholics give far more credence to the pope than to Jesus or they would never even think about calling a religious leader; "Our Holy Father.' It's disgusting.

 

[jgredline]

Heidi

So if you don't want division, then don't add, subtract, change, erase or ignore any of God's word. Then we will all be in agreement. It's really not hard at all because it takes effort to change or twist the bible.

The part I highlighted is very crucial...Let me explain...
First we will agree that the word of God is alive and active sharper than a two edged sword; Correct?

OK...There are two books that I recommend to new believers in Christ...The first is the book of John and the second is the book of Romans...While the book of John was written with third grade greek and mindset, the book of Romans is the most theologically Rich book in all the bible, perhaps second only to Hebrews; maybe...My point is this...

A new believer can read the book of Romans and take it for what it says....especially Romans 7 and 8....and it will speak to the new creation and bring great peace.....

Then as one progresses and their understanding becomes greater and greater, it will speak louder and louder....How many times have you not read the same book, chapter or Verse and every time you go away with more understanding?...I thought I knew the book of Romans very well, until I started to read it and dissect it in Greek...I learned I had just scrapped the surface of this awe-some book...Looking up definitions and the root words they came from is an amazing study for me...I am well into two years of this study....

So keep in mind that some folks are on milk and other are eating a big juicy well done steak.....

Anyway, Keep up the great work your doing..here

 

[Heidi]

Heidi



The part I highlighted is very crucial...Let me explain...
First we will agree that the word of God is alive and active sharper than a two edged sword; Correct?

OK...There are two books that I recommend to new believers in Christ...The first is the book of John and the second is the book of Romans...While the book of John was written with third grade greek and mindset, the book of Romans is the most theologically Rich book in all the bible, perhaps second only to Hebrews; maybe...My point is this...

A new believer can read the book of Romans and take it for what it says....especially Romans 7 and 8....and it will speak to the new creation and bring great peace.....

Then as one progresses and their understanding becomes greater and greater, it will speak louder and louder....How many times have you not read the same book, chapter or Verse and every time you go away with more understanding?...I thought I knew the book of Romans very well, until I started to read it and dissect it in Greek...I learned I had just scrapped the surface of this awe-some book...Looking up definitions and the root words they came from is an amazing study for me...I am well into two years of this study....

So keep in mind that some folks are on milk and other are eating a big juicy well done steak.....

Anyway, Keep up the great work your doing..here

I absolutely agree with you about Romans which I absolutely love. Because I was delivered of so much sin, I particularly love Paul's humility which really stands out in Romans. But he also talks about God's grace, not our own righteousness, especially in chapter 9.

But I've run into a lot of Christians who don't understand Romans. And people first have to have the ability to believe the simple words in scripture before they can extract the deeper spiritual meanings underneath the words. So if people mess up Matthew 1:25, Matthew 23:5-12, Deuteronomy 4:15, etc. then they cannot possibly understand the deeper meanings in scripture if they don't understand the meaning of simple words like "until." Yet they use words "like until" in everyday conversation. So it's only when it's in the bible that Satan attempts to confuse people as to the meaning of simple words.

So that's the first rule of scripture; Believe it. Don't twist, analyze or distort it. Jesus tells us that one has to be like little children to come to God. And children don't have the intellectual capacity to try to distort simple words. They just believe them.

 

[jgredline]

I absolutely agree with you about Romans which I absolutely love. Because I was delivered of so much sin, I particularly love Paul's humility which really stands out in Romans. But he also talks about God's grace, not our own righteousness, especially in chapter 9.

But I've run into a lot of Christians who don't understand Romans. And people first have to have the ability to believe the simple words in scripture before they can extract the deeper spiritual meanings underneath the words. So if people mess up Matthew 1:25, Matthew 23:5-12, Deuteronomy 4:15, etc. then they cannot possibly understand the deeper meanings in scripture if they don't understand the meaning of simple words like "until." Yet they use words "like until" in everyday conversation. So it's only when it's in the bible that Satan attempts to confuse people as to the meaning of simple words.

So that's the first rule of scripture; Believe it. Don't twist, analyze or distort it. Jesus tells us that one has to be like little children to come to God. And children don't have the intellectual capacity to try to distort simple words. They just believe them.

Yes, and Yes...God says what he means and he means what he says...It really is that simple...
To use your example of Matt 1:25...Any third grader will understand that until means what it says....It means that Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations ''until'' after Jesus was born...How soon after we do not know, but the fact that until is there, means it happened sometime before Joseph passed away.....

Proper Doctrine is Expressed by Christ
Practiced in Acts
Explained by Paul

It really is this simple....Further more...Proper theology will lead to doxology.....

 

[Heidi]

Yes, and Yes...God says what he means and he means what he says...It really is that simple...
To use your example of Matt 1:25...Any third grader will understand that until means what it says....It means that Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations ''until'' after Jesus was born...How soon after we do not know, but the fact that until is there, means it happened sometime before Joseph passed away.....

Proper Doctrine is Expressed by Christ
Practiced in Acts
Explained by Paul

It really is this simple....Further more...Proper theology will lead to doxology.....

Amen! So first things first. First we must know and believe that every word in the bible is the truth...and most of them are very simple everyday words. Then after that, we can see the many more meanings that each verse contains but they must not contradict each other or our interpretation is wrong. It's that simple.

 

[francisdesales]

OK...There are two books that I recommend to new believers in Christ...The first is the book of John and the second is the book of Romans...While the book of John was written with third grade greek and mindset, the book of Romans is the most theologically Rich book in all the bible, perhaps second only to Hebrews;

You are joking, right? You are going to recommend the most difficult books of the NT to new believers? Again, I see you are avoiding what Scriptures say...

as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:15b-16

You are going to send the unlearned to their destruction? Really, that is not a wise decision, if one is a true follower of Christ. You don't give infants a chunk of meat, do you. Read what Paul tells the Corinthians about such matters.

You start the new believer on milk, not adult food... Unless you are trying to purposely confuse him.

 

[Heidi]

You are joking, right? You are going to recommend the most difficult books of the NT to new believers? Again, I see you are avoiding what Scriptures say...

as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:15b-16

You are going to send the unlearned to their destruction? Really, that is not a wise decision, if one is a true follower of Christ. You don't give infants a chunk of meat, do you. Read what Paul tells the Corinthians about such matters.

You start the new believer on milk, not adult food... Unless you are trying to purposely confuse him.

And where would you send new believers when the catholics don't even understand; "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son."? : But I can tell you one thing; I'm sure that even new born again Christians could understand that verse. So you under-estimate them, my friend. ;-)

 

[Free]

If only it were that simple. To make such statements as are being made smacks of spiritual superiority, which, if you simply read and believe the Bible, God is very much against.

 

[jgredline]

You are joking, right? You are going to recommend the most difficult books of the NT to new believers? Again, I see you are avoiding what Scriptures say...

as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:15b-16

You are going to send the unlearned to their destruction? Really, that is not a wise decision, if one is a true follower of Christ. You don't give infants a chunk of meat, do you. Read what Paul tells the Corinthians about such matters.

You start the new believer on milk, not adult food... Unless you are trying to purposely confuse him.

Joe...Of course you will not understand this...One needs to have the Holy Spirit to understand his word...Or has the pope not taught you this?

I read in another thread where you teach catechism..This would make you a false teacher and a child of Satan because you are teaching contrary to the word of the Living God....So there is no way that you would understand the simplicity of scripture.....Up until now I have only attacked the CC, but you are the cause of many divisions here.....I praise God for the Christians here that are challenging your false teachings here...You need to repent and be baptized in Christ....

 

[francisdesales]

Joe...Of course you will not understand this...One needs to have the Holy Spirit to understand his word...Or has the pope not taught you this?

Javier,

I do not want to get in an argument with you, although you seem to be desperate to get me to respond to your degrading language... I ask you merely to look to common sense for a minute.

How can the Holy Spirit lead two Protestants in opposite directions? How can the Holy Spirit equally be leading a Calvinist and an Arminian?

That's not how it works. No matter what you say, that it just not true, because the Spirit does not lie. Only men lie.

I read in another thread where you teach catechism..This would make you a false teacher and a child of Satan because you are teaching contrary to the word of the Living God....

Or it would show that you don't know the Word of God? I don't know. Look to the beam in your own eye. By your works, you are known, Javier. One led by the Spirit doesn't speak the way you do. Nor does one think the way you do.

I will let others judge this. I have enough problems with my own spiritual life, especially when I hear a constant barrage from "loving Christians" that I am on my way to hell, am a child of satan, and so forth... Not that I am concerned that you have a clue of my eternal destiny, but I have a desire to respond to your persecution in kind. By the grace of God, I will not stoop to your level and make accusations of who you are a child of or where you are going after death...

You should consider Scriptures before you give out rotten advice and send infant Christians to read the most difficult writing in the NT, a writing that can lead people to destruction.

Think on that for awhile. Improper interpretation of Paul can lead to your destruction...

The wonders of private interpretation. :roll:

 

[Heidi]

Or it would show that you don't know the Word of God? I don't know. Look to the beam in your own eye. By your works, you are known, Javier. One led by the Spirit doesn't speak the way you do. Nor does one think the way you do.

I will let others judge this. I have enough problems with my own spiritual life, especially when I hear a constant barrage from "loving Christians" that I am on my way to hell, am a child of satan, and so forth... Not that I am concerned that you have a clue of my eternal destiny, but I have a desire to respond to your persecution in kind. By the grace of God, I will not stoop to your level and make accusations of who you are a child of or where you are going after death...

You should consider Scriptures before you give out rotten advice and send infant Christians to read the most difficult writing in the NT, a writing that can lead people to destruction.

Think on that for awhile. Improper interpretation of Paul can lead to your destruction...

The wonders of private interpretation. :roll:

Here's a taste of what one who is the Spirit speaks like: Matthew 2333, "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

So until you possess the Spirit yourself, then you;re not qualified to judge what is from the Spirit and what isn't, as you haven shown.

Private interpretation? : Nothing can be more imaginary and private than reading into the bible what it doesn't say or contradicting what the the bible does say, like Mary's sinlessness and perpetualy virginity! : So are you capable of seeing how you read into the bible or not? If not, then I suggest you first remove the plank from your own eye so you can see clearly enough to even look for the speck in the eys of others. :roll: