Confronting the doctrine of sinless perfection with 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10

[leroy]

Think about it in this way - the church is the body of Christ, we as members of the church are representatives or ambassadors of Christ's kingdom, the rest of the world sees Christ through us, our behavior reflects how the character of Christ is perceived in their mind. I repeat - the rest of the world sees Christ through US, not the bible, for more is cuaght than taught! When you're a representative or an ambassador, you are not yourself, you're the face of your organization, which could be your family, your school, your company, your hometown, your state, even your country. You're a window between the rest of the world and your oraganization. If you're on a business trip to meet a client, that client deals not with you personally but with your company, and you ought to follow the order of your boss who sent you, and not your own ideas. If you do a good job and leave your client with a good impression, you'd earn their trust and honor your company, they'll come back next time; but if you do a bad job and leave your client with a bad impression, you'd lose their trust and dishonor your company. Maybe they won't say it in your face, but they'll cross you off quietly in their mind, and next time they'll find someone else to do business with. Likewise, our own reputation affects Jesus's reputation to our mission field. When a pastor or a deacon is caught in a scandal, that's not just humiliation to themselves, but to the whole body of Christ. No atheist tyrant or propaganda machine could cause more damage to the church than an apostate church itself.

Thank you for your effort Carry, I think the difference in how we look at it, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that in your analogy you see the Son of God sitting in the head office orchestrating how things should be and it is up to us to do our best to represent the head office. As we stumble and fall while trying.
My view is that the Son is living in and moving within each employee. His thoughts become their thoughts his actions become their actions. They have willingly laid down their life. You might even say they have no life of their own. The only life they have is the divine life.
I could agree that the Father is in the head office and we are out in the field and the Comforter is the personal liaison. However, the Son is in the field doing the work within the dependent soul, accomplishing what the believer has no power to do. The believer is given the wonderful privilege of seeing the works of God pour out the ends of his fingertips as the Son both wills and does the work. We are nothing without His life in us.
The Son who lives in us has given up all his power, knowledge and understanding, he cannot see the future or read anyones mind. This is what the cross was meant to reveal to humanity. A willful surrendered. This death to all His prerogatives as God places Him on equal ground with us. He walks in the world continually within His human agents, (His body) and proves to the fallen spirits that sinners can in fact stand against Satan and be victorious.
Satan cannot cry foul because the power to live an obedient life comes from an outside source. The Son has condescended to bear the weakness of sin for humanity and show that all of Satan's charges are false. Satan cannot complain that the power of God is overriding his sophistry, because the individual has requested that help. This gives God the right to flex his muscle to press back the powers of darkness so that the dependent soul may walk through this battlefield victoriously.
We live because He lives, and He lives in total dependence on the Father. The Fathers will is to be carried out by His Son within humanity. But the Son can do nothing unless the Holy Spirit is the energizing power. He could not walk on water or raise the dead unless the spirit empowers him to do so.

 

[Tenchi]

You are accused of "trying to be smarter than God's word" because God has instructed his disciples to inquire whether their listener is worthy or not before turning on your preaching mode. If not, you ought to leave them for God to judge instead of endlessly lecturing them.

And as I pointed out to JJonas, this is up to me to decide, not you or JJonas.

 

[Tenchi]

Your answers lead me to beleive you don't know the answers.

Uh huh. Then you aren't thinking very deeply, or considering my posts well.

Rebirth follows the death of the old man.

No, these things are essentially simultaneous.

There can't be two of you running around.

But there is. Read Romans 7:14-25 or Galatians 5:17, or 1 Corinthians 3:1, or Revelation 2-3, or Galatians 3:1-3, etc.

Why do you minimize what God can or can't do ?

I don't; I simply acknowledge what the Bible teaches. Why do you work so hard to deny the plain declaration of God's word?

But do you know the...mechanics of how ?

Yes. Do you? It sure doesn't look like you do...

I can't agree with that.

*Shrugs* This doesn't change the plain facts of Scripture.

You just posted your answer..."23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;"
The word of God is the seed.
The word of God has the power to regenerate men dead in trespasses and sin.

I've not asked you about what the seed is but how one is "born again by God's seed." What does it mean to be born-again by the living and abiding word of God (which is the Gospel in particular and the Scriptures in general).

1 Peter 1:22-25
22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,
23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
24 for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

No words on a page have the power to regenerate anyone, even if they are in the Bible. What power Scripture has exists in the Author of Scripture, not in the Scripture itself. And so, we read:

Hebrews 4:2
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

So, then, how is it, exactly, that "the good news that was preached" results in a person being born-again? What happens, precisely, to bring this to pass?

"That" union provides for the destruction of the old man, and the union with Christ in His resurrection from the tomb.

"That" union provides for the destruction of the old man, and the union with Christ in His resurrection from the tomb.
As His resurrection was a sort of rebirth for Jesus, it is a real rebirth from the dead for us.
We are now new creatures that have never before walked on the earth.
Born of God's life giving seed.
We are His children.

You keep describing the effects of being born-again, never the actual how of a person spiritual "second birth." Yes, all born-again people have been united with Christ and are "new creatures" in him, freed from the power of Self and sin. But how? You still haven't said. Instead, you just use lingo, catch-phrases, like "born again of God's seed" that you don't appear to actually understand biblically and seem to have confused the effects of the second birth with the cause and means of that birth.

Why would he need to ?
Is there any other scripture that refers to us being raised to walk in newness of life ?

This is just a deflection from my point.

The seed is the word, and that word is alive and can regenerate a man.
The word allows us to walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".

So, you really don't know how a person is spiritually-regenerated? I wondered. You might want to read Titus 3:5-8, Romans 8:9-16, 1 John 4:13, John 3:3-7, Acts 2:4, etc.

Really ?
Except for Matt 5:48 ?
And..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

I already explained to you what the context and purpose of Matthew 5:48 was. Jesus's words were not to Christians but to spiritually-unregenerate Jews still under the Old Covenant whose Scriptures demonstrated over and over again that Matthew 5:48, under the dynamic of the Old Covenant, was impossible to achieve. Jesus, then, was not telling Christians how they might live, but was drawing out the impossibility of the standard God required unregenerate Jews to meet. The Jews desperately needed "a new and living way" made through the atoning work of Christ (Hebrews 9-10:22) by which to meet the standard of Matthew 5:48. In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was simply making this point, though in his typically oblique way.

1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Forasmuch then as Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Did Peter write here that his fellow Christians had ceased from sin? No. Did he remark that, as a consequence of their second birth, their lives were now sin-free? No. I'm not sure, then, what you think this verse does in helping your sinless perfection error...

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

Here, too, I don't read anything like "You are now, as a result of being born-again, entirely sin-free," or "He who has called us to glory and virtue has liberated us entirely from all sinful living forever." Peter actually went on to write:

2 Peter 1:5-9
5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

- Why should the sinlessly-perfect make an effort to be what they are naturally as a result of their spiritual birth? A sinlessly-perfect person doesn't have to add virtue, or self-control, or godliness, or love to their living.
- How do these qualities increase if they exist in a perfect way - which they must in order to be sinlessly perfect?
- How could a born-again person who was sinlessly-perfect become "ineffective or unfruitful"? Perfection precludes such a condition.
- How does a sinlessly-perfect Christian become "so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins"? Sinless perfection would necessarily prevent such a condition. But here, Peter indicated that one who was "cleansed of his former sins," a born-again Christian, could forget that he was and grow blind, ineffective and unfruitful spiritually.

In light of all this, I don't see that 1 Peter 1:3-4 helps your sinless perfection error any. Rather, in context, Peter seriously confounds the idea of sinless perfection.

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

Again, why would Peter say such a thing to those who were already, by virtue of being saved, entirely sin-free? He calls them "brethren," after all, ruling out that he was directing his remark to the unsaved. It seems very evident to me that Peter was urging his brethren to be diligent in doing what he'd described because they weren't already doing so, which contradicts the sinless perfection view. So, again, your prooftext above doesn't help your case any, Hopeful 2, but actually does the opposite it.

That is my view of your position.
Plus, you keep misusing scrips' to prove it.
Your POV flies in the face of 1 John 3:9-10.

Nope. I've explained why this isn't so. And so far, you've not shown how I've mishandled or contorted Scripture.

With the lack of either, one is neither spiritual nor in Christ.
Paul is leaving them a graceful way back to both.

Again, this simply ignores what Paul wrote. He called the believers at Corinth "brethren" and "in Christ," carnal though they were. Denying this doesn't make his words go away, or mean something entirely different than what they do. They are right there in the verse for all to see, whatever peculiar denials of those words you try to put forward.

 

[Tenchi]

No. they are not.
A cat can never be a dog, and an adulterous divider of brethren can never be in Christ.
But with a real repentance from their sins, hope is not lost.

This doesn't rebut my remarks in the slightest. Mere contradiction does not an argument make.

If their natures were not Godly natures, their fate is the same as any other sinner.

This is just another deflection from what I pointed out.

If they are sinners, they were never "built on Christ".
Your doctrine is just another accommodation for sin.

*Shrugs* Your problem is with the plain statements of the apostle Paul, not me.

I disagree.
The seed determines the fruit.
Bad fruit comes from bad seed, and will be damned.

Again, mere contradiction doesn't justify or establish your view or defeat mine. It's just contradiction, which is usually the tactic of one whose argument has failed completely.

As the supposed sin nature is one of the things passed away in 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."...your point is moot.

Once more, your problem is with Paul, Peter and John, with the plain statements of Scripture, not with me. It will help you greatly when you stop isolating your prooftexts from the rest of Scripture and their immediate context.

The context is illustrated in 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
John is telling the church how to de[lineate between Christians and posers.

Nope. And nothing you say here does anything to actually demonstrate that I've handled God's word badly. You just contradict, as though what John wrote that I pointed out to you doesn't exist. This is what embracing false doctrine does to a person. It's very sad - and destructive.

Folks walking in sin cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God.
Folks walking in God can honestly say both.
I can tell the difference between the reborn and the posers.
You blend them together.

Nope. God's word does. Deny all you want, but, as I've shown you, the words are there, plain as day, for all to read.

Paul's audience was much vaster than just Romans.
God's word reaches out beyond Rome even today.

This is yet another deflection of my point.

It is pointless to compare worldly events to God's doings.

In other words, you have no good rebuttal of my point. But rather than consider what this means, you just continue to offer these facile and specious responses. See what adopting false doctrine does to your thinking skills, how blind it makes you to the plain declaration of God's word? Scary.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, these things are essentially simultaneous.

I won't quibble about the time it takes to be immersed in baptismal water and being raised from the same.

But there is. Read Romans 7:14-25 or Galatians 5:17, or 1 Corinthians 3:1, or Revelation 2-3, or Galatians 3:1-3, etc.

This annuls your previous line.
You say the old is gone and the new arrives "simultaneously", but now say it hasn't happened at all ?
Make up your mind !

I don't; I simply acknowledge what the Bible teaches. Why do you work so hard to deny the plain declaration of God's word?

You acknowledge what someone has taught you about the bible.
The end of those teachings is an accommodation for sin.

Yes. Do you? It sure doesn't look like you do...

Good, please follow the course laid out for us by God.

I've not asked you about what the seed is but how one is "born again by God's seed." What does it mean to be born-again by the living and abiding word of God (which is the Gospel in particular and the Scriptures in general).

The answer is "faith".

No words on a page have the power to regenerate anyone, even if they are in the Bible. What power Scripture has exists in the Author of Scripture, not in the Scripture itself. And so, we read:
Hebrews 4:2
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

"Faith"...again.

So, then, how is it, exactly, that "the good news that was preached" results in a person being born-again? What happens, precisely, to bring this to pass?

They believed and God did the rest.

You keep describing the effects of being born-again, never the actual how of a person spiritual "second birth." Yes, all born-again people have been united with Christ and are "new creatures" in him, freed from the power of Self and sin. But how? You still haven't said. Instead, you just use lingo, catch-phrases, like "born again of God's seed" that you don't appear to actually understand biblically and seem to have confused the effects of the second birth with the cause and means of that birth.

"Faith", in what was taught them by those from whom they heard the gospel.

So, you really don't know how a person is spiritually-regenerated? I wondered. You might want to read Titus 3:5-8, Romans 8:9-16, 1 John 4:13, John 3:3-7, Acts 2:4, etc.

"Faith", in what has been taught.

I already explained to you what the context and purpose of Matthew 5:48 was. Jesus's words were not to Christians but to spiritually-unregenerate Jews still under the Old Covenant whose Scriptures demonstrated over and over again that Matthew 5:48, under the dynamic of the Old Covenant, was impossible to achieve. Jesus, then, was not telling Christians how they might live, but was drawing out the impossibility of the standard God required unregenerate Jews to meet. The Jews desperately needed "a new and living way" made through the atoning work of Christ (Hebrews 9-10:22) by which to meet the standard of Matthew 5:48. In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was simply making this point, though in his typically oblique way.

Jesus' words are not group specific.
Disobey them at your own peril.

1 Peter 4:1-2
1 Forasmuch then as Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Did Peter write here that his fellow Christians had ceased from sin?

Yes, if they have suffered with Christ in the flesh.

No. Did he remark that, as a consequence of their second birth, their lives were now sin-free? No. I'm not sure, then, what you think this verse does in helping your sinless perfection error...

I am really surprised that you can't see it.
Those that brought your false, sin accommodating doctrine were very thorough with you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here, too, I don't read anything like "You are now, as a result of being born-again, entirely sin-free," or "He who has called us to glory and virtue has liberated us entirely from all sinful living forever."

If someone really, really, want to be pleasing to God, and neighbor, he will use these words to continue on in the grce of God.
If not, they will use every loop-hole and false doctrine in order to maintain a sinful lifestyle.

In light of all this, I don't see that 1 Peter 1:3-4 helps your sinless perfection error any. Rather, in context, Peter seriously confounds the idea of sinless perfection.

You must have some special gift if you can insert "sinful" into..."To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you," (1 Peter 1:4)

Again, why would Peter say such a thing to those who were already, by virtue of being saved, entirely sin-free? He calls them "brethren," after all, ruling out that he was directing his remark to the unsaved. It seems very evident to me that Peter was urging his brethren to be diligent in doing what he'd described because they weren't already doing so, which contradicts the sinless perfection view. So, again, your prooftext above doesn't help your case any, Hopeful 2, but actually does the opposite it.

Mostly because people keep trying to pollute the results of Jesus suffering and death on our behalf.
We get one set of directions from God, but must withstand the false directions of countless servants of satan.
THE road is under constant attack by the accommodators of sin, hate, violence, and lust.
Unless we are constantly on guard, we may be swept off God's path.

Nope. I've explained why this isn't so. And so far, you've not shown how I've mishandled or contorted Scripture.

Cling to your accommodations for sin if you must, but the payoff won't be good.

Again, this simply ignores what Paul wrote. He called the believers at Corinth "brethren" and "in Christ," carnal though they were. Denying this doesn't make his words go away, or mean something entirely different than what they do. They are right there in the verse for all to see, whatever peculiar denials of those words you try to put forward.

Knowing personally that believers are not carnal in any way, I see Paul talking to the entire spiritually minded church...about those who are carnally minded.
If the carnally minded can be brought back from the precipice, they will be saved on the day of judgment.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This doesn't rebut my remarks in the slightest. Mere contradiction does not an argument make.

OK.

This is just another deflection from what I pointed out.

Alright.

*Shrugs* Your problem is with the plain statements of the apostle Paul, not me.

OK.

Again, mere contradiction doesn't justify or establish your view or defeat mine. It's just contradiction, which is usually the tactic of one whose argument has failed completely.

Alright.

Once more, your problem is with Paul, Peter and John, with the plain statements of Scripture, not with me. It will help you greatly when you stop isolating your prooftexts from the rest of Scripture and their immediate context.

OK.

Nope. And nothing you say here does anything to actually demonstrate that I've handled God's word badly. You just contradict, as though what John wrote that I pointed out to you doesn't exist. This is what embracing false doctrine does to a person. It's very sad - and destructive.

Alright.

Nope. God's word does. Deny all you want, but, as I've shown you, the words are there, plain as day, for all to read.

OK.

This is yet another deflection of my point.

Alright.

In other words, you have no good rebuttal of my point. But rather than consider what this means, you just continue to offer these facile and specious responses. See what adopting false doctrine does to your thinking skills, how blind it makes you to the plain declaration of God's word? Scary.

If what I have already provided hasn't appealed to your soul, I will continue to pray that the seeds I have sown will one day bear godly fruit.

 

[Tenchi]

This annuls your previous line.
You say the old is gone and the new arrives "simultaneously", but now say it hasn't happened at all ?
Make up your mind !

This is a Strawman cartoon of what I've pointed out from Scripture. In fact, the NT indicates to us very clearly that though a new, spiritual life has been instituted in a person trusting in Christ as their Savior and Lord, they do not, at the same time, entirely lose the impulses of their flesh, the habits of past godless, self-centered thought and action, their ignorance about how to walk in the Spirit, or the tempting attacks of the devil - all of which things, especially working together, will produce sin their life. Your sinless perfection error takes none of these things into account, though the New Testament does repeatedly.

You acknowledge what someone has taught you about the bible.
The end of those teachings is an accommodation for sin.

See? You don't pay close attention at all to what you're reading. In the quotation of my words that you offered that prompted your remark here, I didn't write anything about some person teaching me what the Bible clearly indicates. What I did write was that the BIBLE teaches with crystal clarity the things I've pointed out from it. I would ask you why you're twisting my words, but I can see it's a bad habit formed in your handling of God's word.

The answer is "faith".

Which is no answer, really, at all.

Jesus' words are not group specific.

But they are - as I explained. Was Jesus speaking to Jews? Yes. Was he speaking to them under the Old Covenant? Yes, he was. Had he atoned yet for their sin? No, he hadn't. Had the Jews ever been able to keep the standard of perfection Jesus declared? No, never. So, your facile reply here is essentially a knee-jerk denial of the obvious, made in service to your false doctrine.

I am really surprised that you can't see it.
Those that brought your false, sin accommodating doctrine were very thorough with you.

This is pretty...sad. As your prooftexts have collapsed under scrutiny, one by one, your replies have grown more and more deflective and facile. You realize, I hope, that others can see this as well as I can.

 

[electedbyHim]

I felt I was very clear in my post as to the nature of Christ. For you to pose such a question caused me to wonder if you had read what I wrote. Since my view on the subject has gone through a number of revisions over time, from the typical view held by the general populous of Christians I expect that one like yourself would have lots of questions. So I do look forward to your thoughts.

I really do not have any questions.

The Bible is clear on who Jesus Christ is.

I have been down this path before so I understand the arguments from the Biblical texts agaist Christ being God.

The other poster who believes he/she is sinless also would not give me a yes or no answer. An explanation is not necessary. Yes or no would have been fine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess this is the New Christianity:
Jesus is not God.
We can be perfect.

Happily, these two points were considered 2,000 years ago and the conclusion was:
Jesus is God.
We cannot be perfect.

 

[leroy]

I really do not have any questions.

The Bible is clear on who Jesus Christ is.

I have been down this path before so I understand the arguments from the Biblical texts agaist Christ being God.

The other poster who believes he/she is sinless also would not give me a yes or no answer. An explanation is not necessary. Yes or no would have been fine.

Yes, clearly Christ is God. You say that the Bible is clear about who Jesus Christ is perhaps you could share with me your thoughts on that. You are not interested in asking questions but I would like to know what you have found in the bible on this subject.
Tell me what the bible says about his humanity.
Where did His flesh come from?
Was his flesh pure as Adam before the fall or was it sinful flesh?
What does the bible say about the divinity and the humanity?
I'd appreciate an open discussion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ is God. You say that the Bible is clear about who Jesus Christ is perhaps you could share with me your thoughts on that. You are not interested in asking questions but I would like to know what you have found in the bible on this subject.
Tell me what the bible says about his humanity.
Where did His flesh come from?
Was his flesh pure as Adam before the fall or was it sinful flesh?
What does the bible say about the divinity and the humanity?
I'd appreciate an open discussion.

Hi leroy,
Welcome to the forum!

There's a sub-forum under APOLOGETICS where the above has been discussed at length in many threads.
You could join a thread there or start a new one. It's under Trinitarianism.

This would derail too much on this thread.
Thanks.

 

[leroy]

I guess this is the New Christianity:
Jesus is not God.
We can be perfect.

Happily, these two points were considered 2,000 years ago and the conclusion was:
Jesus is God.
We cannot be perfect.

There are those who like to argue because they need to be right. If one card is moved the whole house will collapse. This the ego cannot handle and they will guard it even to the extent of being intellectually dishonest. As for me I've had things that I held as truth overturned with greater truth, for which I was thankful. It's not like the belief was completely heretical but new light on the matter made what I held before untenable.
There are those who still feed at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - The tree of the knowledge of right and wrong - The tree of the knowledge that I am right and the other guy is wrong. Our first parents partook of that tree and their offspring have been feeding from it ever since. I prefer to feed at the tree of life where Father gives me what to do daily and I don't have to judge it and I am free of judging anyone else.
The study of the incarnation and the nature of Christ has been a hotbed of argumentation. For the most part people just bang heads because they want to be right or to prove the other person wrong. I would hope I'm not the kind of person. What I have studied and understood about the nature of Christ has brought me to a place where many of Paul statements regarding "Christ in you" now shine very bright. It brought me out of a religion of failure and lifted me up to stand against the winds that blow. It has shown me that the devil is a defeated foe.
The words perfection and sinless are usually spoken with an accusation. I do not feel that anyone should claim perfection or sinlessness because to do so they would have to be looking at themselves. My experience is to keep my eyes upon the Savior for He is my perfection and my eternal life.
The one who has been brought low by seeing the true depth of their own depravity and have been delivered from it, will never look to self and claim anything but that they are one who is in total need of the abiding presence of the Son of God moment by moment.
Jesus lived a perfect life and he was sinless, no one since or before could lay claim to that. But the scriptures do say that God will keep us in the time of temptation, and will provide a way of escape and that he will keep us from falling and present us faultless. The true believer only focuses on following the will of God. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. The heart refined and sanctified will find its highest delight in doing the will of God. One who is dead to sin would never consider violating their conscience.

 

[leroy]

Hi leroy,
Welcome to the forum!

There's a sub-forum under APOLOGETICS where the above has been discussed at length in many threads.
You could join a thread there or start a new one. It's under Trinitarianism.

This would derail too much on this thread.
Thanks.

thank you I will

 

[leroy]

Hi leroy,
Welcome to the forum!

There's a sub-forum under APOLOGETICS where the above has been discussed at length in many threads.
You could join a thread there or start a new one. It's under Trinitarianism.

This would derail too much on this thread.
Thanks.

Forgive my ignorence but I could not find Trinitarianism under Apologetics. can you lead the blind?

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is a Strawman cartoon of what I've pointed out from Scripture.

All you have presented is your sin accommodating false doctrines.
Anyone who read your last post will see your back-flip.

In fact, the NT indicates to us very clearly that though a new, spiritual life has been instituted in a person trusting in Christ as their Savior and Lord, they do not, at the same time, entirely lose the impulses of their flesh, the habits of past godless, self-centered thought and action,

That is called temptation, as the "flesh", with its affections and lusts have been crucified. (Gal 5:24)
By resisting the devil, he will flee, with his enticements that are based on the past man's lusts.

their ignorance about how to walk in the Spirit, or the tempting attacks of the devil - all of which things, especially working together, will produce sin their life. Your sinless perfection error takes none of these things into account, though the New Testament does repeatedly.

You seem ignorant of 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
How can you deny the truth of that ?

See? You don't pay close attention at all to what you're reading. In the quotation of my words that you offered that prompted your remark here, I didn't write anything about some person teaching me what the Bible clearly indicates. What I did write was that the BIBLE teaches with crystal clarity the things I've pointed out from it. I would ask you why you're twisting my words, but I can see it's a bad habit formed in your handling of God's word.

If you were quoting scripture, sans the false interpretations, your false doctrine might be tenable.
But as it is just more accommodations for sin, I know it isn't of God.
I can tell the false prophets, and prophesies, by their fruit.
Sin is not of God.

Which is no answer, really, at all.

Faith may seem like nothing to you, but to the faithful in Christ Jesus, it is everything.

But they are - as I explained. Was Jesus speaking to Jews? Yes. Was he speaking to them under the Old Covenant? Yes, he was.

He was also speaking to us, 2000 years later.

Had he atoned yet for their sin? No, he hadn't. Had the Jews ever been able to keep the standard of perfection Jesus declared? No, never. So, your facile reply here is essentially a knee-jerk denial of the obvious, made in service to your false doctrine.

Were your ideas true, we could not identify with anything Jesus said.
That would be the ideal outcome, for the devil's campaigners.

This is pretty...sad. As your prooftexts have collapsed under scrutiny, one by one, your replies have grown more and more deflective and facile. You realize, I hope, that others can see this as well as I can.

Good words there..."PROOF texts".
As I have bee able to prove over and over again that your sin accommodating doctrine of continued failure to obey God, is not of God, it would behoove you to really repent of sin once and for all.
If you do repent, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our past sins, Peter says that you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Try it, with faith that God can perform a miracle.
God will give you the ability to resist every temptation.

God didn't allow His son to suffer and die for us so we could continue to offend them both.
The Jews already had the corner on that market.

 

[GodsGrace]

Forgive my ignorence but I could not find Trinitarianism under Apologetics. can you lead the blind?

You're not blind!

Here's the link:

Trinitarianism

Discuss all things related to the doctrine of the Trinity, such as the deity of Jesus, the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit, the relationship between the Father and the Son, etc.

christianforums.net

 

[leroy]

You're not blind!

Here's the link:

Trinitarianism

Discuss all things related to the doctrine of the Trinity, such as the deity of Jesus, the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit, the relationship between the Father and the Son, etc.

christianforums.net

I read through some of the posts on the forum and did not really find anything edifying. Those who have had higher education seem to use a lot of words and don't really say much that I would find reason to comment on

 

[Hopeful 2]

I guess this is the New Christianity:
Jesus is not God.
We can be perfect.

Happily, these two points were considered 2,000 years ago and the conclusion was:
Jesus is God.
We cannot be perfect.

We certainly can't be perfect until we repent of sin and are washed of our past sins by the blood of Christ. (Acts 2:38)
And still we must be reborn of God's seed in order to walk as Jesus walked in accord with God.
All that is possible, thanks be to God !