Klee shay said:
Actually they're not that clear on remarriage, and I support remarriage, LOL. They're clear on how Christ was telling the Jews not to put their wives away for no good reason. Can you explain to me specifically where you feel Christ is saying it is okay to remarry?
Brother, I think Ive cited those passages and highlighted it a dozen times or more in these threads here.
This is one whole sentence, one thought.
`And I say to you, that,
whoever may put away his wife, if not for whoredom, and may marry another, doth commit adultery;
and he who did marry her that hath been put away, doth commit adultery.'
(Mat 19:9)
If you put her away and remarry, and its not for whoredom, and its adultery.
Now, what if it IS for whoredom?
2+2...whoredom has always broken the marital covenant.
Its clear enough for many scholars to agree that it is refering to sexual sin commited by a wife, and that remarriage is not sin in this case.
What is aburd to you is what someone else believes.
Oh brother.
I SAID that the jump from BETROTHAL to PREMARITAL was an absurd jump.....and anyone who has studied it would know that.
I assume lastblast HAS studied it, so yes, it would be an ILLOGICAL jump......BETROTHAL is NOT our PREmarital engagement, it is marriage.
I don't think it's going to change anyone's mind by using such belittling remarks.
It wasnt belittling, it was stating fact. Those who have studied this out should know that its absurd to call ''betrothal'' a PREmarital state.
These are people who love Christ and are doing what they believe is what Christ would expect.
and thats fine.
But many are claiming to have studied this out extensively.
They should know that BEtrothal is NOT PREmarital, that is an absurd leap as betrothal was a marriage state, NOT PREmarital.
Im sorry, I put no one down here, I made an assertion that implying that betrothal was PREmarital was absurd and it is, This has nothing to do with the poster but the argument.
If they are wrong, then show them through the spirit and not just the words in the bible. It is loving guidance which will lead these people to the light. You may very well be onto something; but who will listen when your words of wisdom are marred with insults to one's intelligence to comprehend anything?
I didnt insult anyone, I made the assertion that the leap is absurd.
And Im sticking by that assertion because it is absurd.
It has nothing to do with the posters intelligence, it has to do with the ARGUMENT that implies that betrothal is equal to a PREmarital state.
We are sin, friend. Whether we choose to remarry or not, we are covered in sin. That is not what will give us eternal life. It is the forgiveness of sin which will, through Christ.
Are you a Calvinist?
We are fallen, sinful creatures. We are not sin.
Sin is disobedience to Gods will, it is not some magical entity.
We have sin because we disobey.
Adam and Eve had sin because they disobeyed.
Forgiven and I do not comdemn you for holding your views. I agree with a lot of what you post. You shouldn't be so die hard however, that it hides the truths of the scriptures you hold.
Die hard?
Let me tell you what happens when one isnt ''die hard'' about this.
Those of the other camp start sending you pms and propaganda believing they may have a convert.
I tried ''negotiating'', that was a mistake, it makes one sound compromising.
Compromise would imply that I may not be sure of my stance, I am. 100% sure
So die hard is all there is for me to be.
I get confused by the greek translations which are now coming into vogue. First Christians were given a latin version of the bible, then an English one (a fair few Christians died for that version to come out too) and now we're reverting back to the original Greek transcripts. That's nice and all, but it's still Greek and means diddly squat to the layman who'd rather understand their English version first.
Theres a fix for that.
Its called the ''english Majority Text version"
Translated from the GMT straight into english.
This is based on the MANY Byzantine texts, the ones that were being copied and used by the chuch.
It pretty much is the same as the Recieved Text (minus a couple items like the 'Johannine Comma' which seems to have been a sidebar note that slipped into the text) so its 99% or so similar to the TR that the KJV came from.
So I trust it.
It says.
And I say to you, that
whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery
; and whoever marrying a divorcee commits adultery."
(Mat 19:9)
whoever puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery, except for porneia.
Same as every other versoin.
Like I said, you're probably onto something, however you shouldn't expect everyone to have the same level of understanding you do of these matters. You discredit your teachings by treating everyone like they know nothing.
I dont expect that, but heres the problem.
If Im not 'die hard'' in many topics its no big deal. People have lots of time to find out the truth.
But this one is one that is dangerous.
Ive actually had men and woman PM who had listened to this teaching who were so confused that they were either completey distraught or they were ready to give up a spouse.
Thank God I got them to back out of these websites and study until they see more of the picture.
We're talking unjustified divorce here guy, thats quite enough for me to take this VERY seriously.
This isnt a discussion to me, this is peoples lives and marriages that could be destroyed.
I'm on your side here. I believe in remarriage too. Please don't shoot the messenger who says that remarriage is possible through the forgiveness of Christ though.
I wasnt trying to hurt or insult you friend, not at all.
I was only stating that we cannot concede to sin that which isnt sin.
If we do, if we allow that, then we are saying we ARE sinning.
That makes us wrong, doesnt it?
Since Jesus did make the exception, then we arent wrong at all in the case that we have divorced and remarried for porneia.
This is critical becuase some would actually divorce a spouse of 3 decades if they believed they were sinning.
One who has ended a marriage has indeed committed a sin, though it may not be the sin of divorce.
This is part of the error.
Jesus has shown divorce and remarriage as adultery if not for whoredom.
for whoredom it isnt sin to do so.
Sin lead up to the divorce, whoredom, but it was not sin to put this whoring spouse away and remarry.
It is the sin to have lost sight of Christ in a marriage that was falling apart.
When a person turns their back on a spouse they are supposed to love (for whatever justifiable reason) they have turned their backs on Christ.
Ok, and what about the man who HASNT lost site of Christ?
What about the man who put every ounce of everything he had to give into his relationship and His Savior for a decade and a half, then after nearly dying found his wife to be whoring around at a time in life when he needed her most........and if she refused to quit and seemingly wanted to be in a little 3 way love stew with her husband and her lover?
It IS possible for one person in the union to be in sin and the other to be completely and innocently oblivious.
Jesus asks us to love our enemies and give them whatever they ask.
Come on now, we're talking two people who have entered Gods HOLY marriage union.
Whoredom breaches that covenant, it always has.
I didnt divorce my exs from a hard heart, I divorced them when they refused to quit.
We dont have to be united in Gods Holy union to a whoring spouse.
Jesus has shown that divorce and remarriage for porneia (sexual immorality) is not adultery.....or sin on the part of the innocent.
You may well be versed in the scriptures; but these people are doing what they are doing because they love Christ and believe they are following him.
No offense, but how many people of how many false doctrines do the very same?
When we come across someone teaching a doctrine that is based on partial truth we give them the benefit of the doubt and try to teach them the truth, but what about when they are persistant and refuse that truth and even state that they are going to teach their doctrines from the rooftops in defiance of us?
There are some in these threads here that I am already familiar with from other websites. I already know that no matter what is presented, they ARENT going to listen.
So my hope has turned from getting them to see the truth to damage control. Getting the truth to others so they dont make a huge error and divorce a spouse they dont have to divorce.
as I said, this isnt a discussion to me, its peoples lives at stake.
Folks read these threads and get very confused.
You cannot offer them something contradicting to what they believe without the proof of Jesus' spirit upon your words. They are reading the same words you are; only they have been given a different meaning. While logic can be exchanged all the day long, it is only the Good Shepherd's voice which will call his sheep.
Ok.
But you assume ONE audience here, its not.
There are those who listen, and those who dont.
Those who dont are preaching all over these websites that men and women who have remarried, even for a just cause, are living in sin and need to divorce yet again.
Those men in the bible presented the truth.
They didnt negotiate it and I dont believe we are to either when it comes to persistant people teaching false doctrines.
As I said, this isnt a discussion to me, it is peoples lives.
Youd understand what Im talking about had you read many of the PMs I get.
Getting in touch with your holy spirit, may actually be able to help you convey your message to his flock a lot easier.
Are you sure that its not the Spirit that causes some to be ''die hard" ?
The facts are that Ive had folks contact me and let me know that what has been said has helped them see that they arent doing anything wrong.
It is unnacceptable to lose a single person to false doctrines.
I know i probably wont convey how critical this is to me, but it is.
We're not discussing cars or hobbies here, we're affecting peoples lives.
Id hope that is something for all to take VERY seriously.
God bless.
ps.... Klee Shay see my post (just after delicates to you on page three)
http://christianforums.net/viewtopic.ph ... e2677dc9f8
You can start to see why I have to be so critical on this issue
