Do angles have free will?

[stovebolts]

Honestly, I've never really done a study on Angels, but I heard a commentary the other day on these passages that questioned the idea of Angels not having free will.

This argument assumes that we humans have free will, and I would hope that our free will does not become the focal point of this argument.

Zechariah 3
1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
The keyword here is standing.

7Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

The argument was presented that those who "stand by" in vese 7 are Angels, and the reason they stand by is that they have no free will and are only able to be obedient to the LORD. Humanity on the other hand has the ability to make choices, thus man is able to walk, and by walking has the ability to choose life or death based on Deut 30:15 and Deut 30:19.

I realize this smacks in the face those who believe that Satan is a fallen Angel based on Ez 28.

Thoughts?

 

[PouringRain]

I am in the camp of: angels have no free will. They can only do what they were created to do.


Since you are interested in this topic, and also mentioned in the past your interest in Judaism, you may want to look at their writings on the topic if you want to know more about angels and the lack of free will. It is a Judaic belief that angels have no free will.

 

[Veritas]

I've heard it said that angels had free will at one point. For example, if you consider humans, we are presented with choices and exercise our choices continually. In contrast, angels had only one choice, one decision. This would be the time satan and the other angels fell. Now, they are essentially back to no free will.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi PouringRain,
Yes, the commentary I heard was from an audio from Chabad and within their commentary, they mentioned Zechariah 3.

This has huge implications on what is taught in mainstreem Christianity in regard to Satan, as the Jews have a totally different view on his role, which is why I brought up this discussion and added Ez 28 into the mix, which I've always read literally in regard to the prince of Tyre, not Satan. It also supports a view that I've held that comes from Job where Satan only has the authority over us which God gives him, which BTW a lot of Christians I've spoken with don't buy into.

Hey Craig, good to see you posting! Hope all is well!

I'd be really interested to hear, and see the scriptures that support what you've been told. Like yourself, I've heard similar things, but I've never seen scipture on it.

Again, I don't really know if Angels have free will or not because I've never really studied it, so I hope that this thread can remain civil as different views come into play.

Thanks!

 

[Veritas]

Hi Jeff!

Yes, all is well! It's good to be back ...and to see some familiar people. I've just been busy lately...graduate school and such. Hope you are well also

I'll look into the scriptures about the angels and satan; although, I'm fairly sure they are somewhat vague.

 

[Veritas]

I think one of the places that the idea of demons being fallen angels comes from is Revelation 12:4. There, it sounds as if one third of the heavenly hosts rebelled.

Isaiah 14:12-6 talks about "the morning star" falling from heaven; and the reason for falling being pride.

 

[stovebolts]

Wow, graduate school! Congratulations! Way to go!

Well, I've done a minor study on demons in the past, and they have their own hebrew name that differes from Angels, so I don't think they are in the same class and I know of a lot of differening views on Rev 12:4.

Actually, and I wish I had my notes with me right now, but in my study of Exodus 20, I found that mankind worshipped three entities other than God.

1. Heavenly Hosts (Sun, Moon, planets, stars)
2. Idols, made of wood or stone. This was often mixed with demon worship, but not always and ironically, those who worshipped demons always percieved themselves as gods through the course of time.
3. Angels, which are also called prince in Daniel.

Considering these above 'dieties', could the morning star in Isaiah be one of the Canenite god's (Venus) that Babylon worshipped?

 

[Mike]

Funny, this came up today. Some guys got together and had a Michigan made micro-beer tasting bbq and we studied the book of Jude. Now, that's about right!

Verse 6 "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

I've never thought too much about angels and free will, always assuming they serve Him perfectly according to His purpose, but I'm trying to reconcile the idea of some of them "deciding" to rebel and disobeying His will.

And, Jeff, I know the question this post is invoking... They were:

Arbor Brewing Co. Red Snapper Bitter
Arcadia Ale's IPA
Bell's Porter
Michigan Brewing Company Mackinaw Pale Ale
New Holland Brewing Company Full Circle
Victory Sunrise Weisenbier

Just a tiny cup of each. Not sitting around getting bent on beer and Jude.

 

[shad]

I've never thought too much about angels and free will, always assuming they serve Him perfectly according to His purpose, but I'm trying to reconcile the idea of some of them "deciding" to rebel and disobeying His will.

What about fallen angels who are following satan? It seems clear that angels have free will to obey or disobey God.

 

[Pard]

That's a good question.

I am leaning towards they lack free will, however it does not help to explain Satan.

Allow me to not use scripture to support my current line of thinking...

God created angels, ya? Angels are pretty much beautiful creatures who love and adore God, they are in a sense, perfect (well in comparison to humans). I recon God made angels before He made humans (reading meaning into the bit about angel/human children in Gen.). So, if God already had these sinless creatures... why would He want to pollute His creation with sinners like us?

And the reason may very well be that angels have no free will. They love God because they know no other way. If you are forced to love, that is no real love at all. God was not satisfied with simple angels who operated like robots.

To contrast the angels and their lack of free will, perhaps He made humans. We have free will. We make choices, and unlike angels, our love for God is not forced but out of genuine love for Him.

Just rolling with it...

 

[Mike]

I've never thought too much about angels and free will, always assuming they serve Him perfectly according to His purpose, but I'm trying to reconcile the idea of some of them "deciding" to rebel and disobeying His will.

What about fallen angels who are following satan? It seems clear that angels have free will to obey or disobey God.

My point exactly, and it was brought up earlier.

I've heard it said that angels had free will at one point. For example, if you consider humans, we are presented with choices and exercise our choices continually. In contrast, angels had only one choice, one decision. This would be the time satan and the other angels fell. Now, they are essentially back to no free will.

What scripture do we have to say they once could decide but not anymore?

I realize this smacks in the face those who believe that Satan is a fallen Angel based on Ez 28.

Jeff, I thought it was just assumed Satan was an angel. Is this not Satan referred to in Isaiah 14?
"12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit."

 

[Teach]

Honestly, I've never really done a study on Angels, but I heard a commentary the other day on these passages that questioned the idea of Angels not having free will.

Well I guess I'll chime in.
I think you may have misunderstood what I said about the Angels. I believe absolutely that they have Free Will. I can not imagine God, who has been around for an eternity without angels, all of a sudden being in need of a bunch of robot angels to adore Him and carry out His biddings. He has no need of robots, He can do everything Himself.

Angels have Free Will to love, obey, worship God or to oppose, reject and try to usurp His Sovereignty. One third did choose to oppose Him.

What I originally said is that I do not believe that angels have the ability or power to create or be creative. When angels are given a task to do something they just go ahead and do it without any thought as to which way is the better way to do it. They don't stop and think imaginatively; maybe I'll deliver that message while disguised as a hobo or i'll speak to the person in the midst of a whirlwind. I believe they are given all the parameters and then they execute accordingly.

We however, have been created in the image of God, and one of our attributes is to be creative which is why we have an imagination component. That creativity is expressed or formulated by speech or the Tongue. When we speak to a child and say : “You are useless.†We create in him a sense of futility, a belief of unworthiness that if unchecked will only send that child into a downward spiral of lack of self-esteem and wretchedness. But If we speak life such as: “You did a great job.†Then the opposite happens.
That is why the scriptures tell to watch for the tongues.
Matt. (17:20) “...he who shall say unto this mountain, be removed...â€
Jas (3:6) And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas (3:8) But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
The tongues also has it’s part in Salvation or even healing.
Rom (10:9) That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in their heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved.
Jas (5:16) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Hence the importance of corporate fellowship and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, with its evidence of tongues. We surrender our tongue to the Spirit who speaks wonders onto God.

Our imagination and creativity is what brought us from the caves to landing on the moon. But angels are angels, some created for worshipping others for other tasks. God enjoys their worship because He knows it comes Freely from their hearts, if not they can join Satan and his minions.

That is also why I say that Satan has no imagination. He only repeats what he knows and copies what he sees God do. Satan also cannot read our minds, he is not omniscient. So the only way he can know what is going on in our heads is when we confess or speak out.
Remember:
Mat (12:34) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Mat (15:11) Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defiles a man.

That’s why God says to mind our tongue. What we say is often what our heart believes and we receive what we believe. (Pray for me Pastor because I think I’m coming down with a cold.) That kind of negative and faithless confession allows for Satan to annoy us with a cold.
That kind of confession is sinful for us, and it is that sin that gives authority to Satan to attack us. Look and Job, his confession “The thing that I GREATLY feared has come upon me†(Job 3:25) put a in his hedge of protection and “He who breaks a hedge, a serpent shall bite him. (Ecc. 10:8)
Job had a GREAT fear and confessed it (2Tim. 1:7)â€God has not given us a spirit of fear...†this was sinful and allow Satan to leave the realm of the spirits, the 2nd heaven, and appear before God, 3rd heaven, and accuse job and even request to attack him because he had the authority to do so, based on job’s sinful confession.
Anyway I have strayed from the original thought that of angels having the power of creativity or imagination. Forgive me.

 

[PouringRain]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but from the first few posts it seems that people think a rebellion indicates a free will, but I would disagree. I think it is entirely possible for an angel to rebel with a lack of free will, if the angel was created for that purpose. If an angel was created to "rebel" and be an opposer, then when the angel does it, the angel is only doing what it was created to do.

Just wanted to throw that out. Maybe someone else already did. I'll have to finish reading through the thread in a few minutes. But I just wanted to say that I don't think that rebellion alone indicates a free will.

 

[PouringRain]

Max Lucado actually wrote something about angels and the lack of free will in some book. Don't ask me which book. Someone shared the passage with me and was excited about this new discovery (which for me was not a new concept at all, but I was happy for his enthusiasm). Maybe someone here has read it also and could point it out?

Sorry for my random, disjointed posts tonight.

 

[PouringRain]

Pard, your post about "robot" angels and free-will humans....

 

[Mike]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but from the first few posts it seems that people think a rebellion indicates a free will, but I would disagree. I think it is entirely possible for an angel to rebel with a lack of free will, if the angel was created for that purpose. If an angel was created to "rebel" and be an opposer, then when the angel does it, the angel is only doing what it was created to do.

Just wanted to throw that out. Maybe someone else already did. I'll have to finish reading through the thread in a few minutes. But I just wanted to say that I don't think that rebellion alone indicates a free will.

I could see where they followed Satan and submitted to his will; not their own. But Who's will would be their purpose? God's! Rebelling against the One to gave them their purpose would have to be acting in their own free will, IMHO. Whatever reason they had in following Satan, it would have still been against the Will of the Father which would have constituted their own free will, IMHO.

 

[PouringRain]

I could see where they followed Satan and submitted to his will; not their own. But Who's will would be their purpose? God's! Rebelling against the One to gave them their purpose would have to be acting in their own free will, IMHO. Whatever reason they had in following Satan, it would have still been against the Will of the Father which would have constituted their own free will, IMHO.

I understand what you are saying..... but how do you know that following satan was not in God's will for them when he created them? That is why I say that "rebellion" does not necessarily indicate a free will. God has a purpose for all things he creates, even if we can not understand or know that purpose. If man was to fully have a free will, then having an opposer (to God) would be necessary; otherwise there would be no choice for man. The creation of an opposer is necessary, as is the creation of an "army" for the opposer, since the opposer is not omnipresent, omniscient, etc. Only God alone has those qualities.

I think the two best places in scripture where we see evidence of the lack of free will is: 1) Job and 2) Jesus. With Job is the most obvious, as satan directly asks God's permission. With Jesus it is less evident, but we can see where the spirit of God led Jesus to be tempted. This was an event that was orchestrated by God. Other instances in the life of Jesus is where he spoke and the demons fled. If they had a free will, they could choose not to leave, but instead they are subject to his commands. There was one instance where they asked to be sent into some pigs. Here again we see them asking permission.

 

[Ashua]

Yes they do. Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled against God.

 

[LostSoul]

Think Lucifer answers that question. After all was it not his own personal pride in which brought about the first sin and the sins of mankind?

 

[stovebolts]

good discussion guys. Lot's to think about for sure.