Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Do Animals Go To Heaven ?

Lewis W said:
We feel terrible that we have been so duped and not seen the truth that you have bestowed upon us. Please do not laugh to hard as we are trying and hope to one day be as advanced in knowlege as you. We proclaim you as our leader and the one to guide our paths down the straight and narrow path of lewis.
You will never have my superior mind, and yes I am your leader, and yes you should bow to my every word. Don't you know that I can have you thrown on the rack, or have you shot with just a lift of my finger. For I am king, and for now on I am to be addressed as your highness. And when ever you see me always cower down or bow, or get on your knees, because your head should never be higher than mine.
For I have spoken.

You must be of the lineage of Judah that rules over the people of Israel. I know we have an engineer at work that can trace his lineage to the Stewart Kings (and thus to the Kings of Judah) and loves to tell us peons what to do--- as if we cannot think for ourselves. I can understand this since it was prophecied in Genesis 49:10. :-D
 
Lewis:

How dare you openly mock someone because of their belief?! Personally I think animals going to heaven is hard to believe, but it doesn't mean it isn't true... neither of us know, and until you go to heaven and see a squirrel there... your mocking posts have no bearing.

LD:

That was hilarious, thank you for that.
 
Lewis W said:
We feel terrible that we have been so duped and not seen the truth that you have bestowed upon us. Please do not laugh to hard as we are trying and hope to one day be as advanced in knowlege as you. We proclaim you as our leader and the one to guide our paths down the straight and narrow path of lewis.
You will never have my superior mind, and yes I am your leader, and yes you should bow to my every word. Don't you know that I can have you thrown on the rack, or have you shot with just a lift of my finger. For I am king, and for now on I am to be addressed as your highness. And when ever you see me always cower down or bow, or get on your knees, because your head should never be higher than mine.
For I have spoken.
You really don't get it, do you? How sad....

:roll:
 
You really don't get it, do you? How sad....
No you really don't get it, and to the new person who is telling me, how dare you. You just don't get it ether, and how dare you.I am not going to go back and forth with this thing, you people, for I am king and I will have chariots arrive at your doors, and have you all whisked away to a dungeon and impaled.
 
Well I hope there are pigs in heaven, cuz it wouldn't be heaven without those southern barbequed pork ribs! :wink:
 
That is one reason why I placed the winking smiley face on my post. I didn't want anyone to think that I was serious. But I do love them pork ribs!! :D
 
Lewis W said:
And I am sorry nikki, that I got angry at you, please forgive me.
That's ok. That's why I said that I hoped you were trying to be funny. It's so hard for me to tell when a person is serious or not.
:D

Oh, and I plan on seeing my furbaby in heaven. :P

The way I look at it is that I can find comfort here on earth believing that I will see my dogs again one day. Once in heaven, I know there will be no tears, so I won't know any different or be sad over it if they aren't in heaven. God knows how important my animals are to me here on earth and whether he will have animals in heaven or not, I don't know. But I do find comfort in the thought that they will be.
 
I may get beat down for this, but if you see a pet as a "treasuse"; remember this:

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I will miss my cats dearly when they die but won't be disappointed (if it's even possible) to not "feel" their presence in Heaven.
 
Vic said:
I may get beat down for this, but if you see a pet as a "treasuse"; remember this:

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I will miss my cats dearly when they die but won't be disappointed (if it's even possible) to not "feel" their presence in Heaven.

You asked for it....
violent-smiley-100.gif
 
Pay close attention to verse 21.

Ecclesiates 3:19-21
19. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"



The non-eternal spirit of animals, and the immortal spirit of men, and they take two separate and distinct paths at death. Because man is made in the image of God, he goes upward, but the spirits of beasts are absorbed by the earth. i.e., they cease to exist. And in point of fact, it is because he has this rational soul that man can justly be cast into Hell, and animals are not. Animals simply return to the dust when their life on this earth is over. By contrast, God's Word makes it abundantly clear that the souls of men and women will live for eternity, either in the Kingdom of heaven, or in the Hell of the lake of Fire.

Matthew 18:3
3. "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Can an animal become as little children in Jesus Christ, and be converted? The answer is no, they are not humans, they are beasts of the field. Can a dog believe in God to inherit life, or were animals created as a help, meat, to be used in sacrifices, and for the temporal service of man, whom God has placed to rule (gen. 1:27-28) over them? The answer is obvious.

John 3:5-6
5. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Can an animal be born again of the Spirit? The only rational answer is no. Is an animal clean? God says no. In fact, In scripture God uses dogs and Pigs to illustrate that which is unclean. Can anything be cleansed without blood. Again, God says no. Therefore, for an animal to enter heaven, Christ would have had to die for them as well. And when we start thinking like that, we start having to add to scripture, and making up our own laws and rules to support our thoughts. We've then fallen from Grace and are making an image of God, rather than worshipping the God of the Bible.

Animals were subject to the curse which God placed upon creation because of Adam’s sin. And so not being cleansed by the blood of Christ, it seems clear animals do not go to heaven.
 
Lewis, and Soma, I read both of your posts, and I still believe it is likely that they will be restored there, as they are here.

I do not believe that animals are insignificant. I think that the World has swung too far one way with groups like PETA, and the other way with examples of animal abuse such as puppy mills, common neglect, and cruel pranks that harm these innocent beasts. I also think that believers need to recognize that having a Godly attitude on God's creation doesn't mean that we can not love our pet openly, or cry when it dies, or give it proper care. I think it is up to believers to understand that being over the animals means that we utilize them for food, and work, and other needs, but also that we treat them with care, kindness, and love. We must be sensible, and be good stewards of what God has placed in our care.

Animals were created for us, and they are so wondeful. People use animals for companionship, and how can you not? They are loving, loyal, and so hard working, and they keep many lonely people from being alone altogether physically. They are also a way to teach children how to work hard, have compassion, and have responsibility. They are a wondeful medicine for those who are disabled, or even troubled. Scientifically, they are helping us a great deal. And most importantly, as with all of God's creation, they are telling of God in many ways.

If we have an abnormal attachment (meaning that we are making them idols, or putting them above humans, and God), then I think this is wrong, and sinful. (I also think we do this with EVERYTHING, not just animals.) But I also think that it says something about the World, and more importantly, the church, that a person even feels this strong need to make an animal the center of their life. These people wouldn't be lonely if we were showing true religion more, being hospitable on an individual basis with our neighbors, and sharing the love of Christ by spending time, and resources, to spread the light of the Gospel with our lives in a relational way.

Anyway, I think in the proper perspective animals enrich our lives in a wonderful way, and I don't see anything in the Bible that convinces me that this part of God's creation will not be restored in Heaven, but I do not see anything that absolutely tells me that Nikki's Furbaby will be there either. I am inclined to believe that it (dog, cat?) will be, however. The reason is this, why would God make these creatures in an indivisual way, as he has, and then just destroy them? But, then restore all of the rest of creation, and make it new again? Why exclude the animals that were created? If they are individual animals, then why not restore those individual animals created in an individual way? I do not believe that it makes sense that somehow God would do something that is so out of His order of things. I do not believe that the animals that were brought into existance HAVE to be destroyed, and then all new animals created. I think God will glorify Himself in a way that shows that He is able to restore them, as He promised He would restore creation, and I believe that their individuality is encompassed in this. He could have just made all new men too, but His plan was not to, and it was for His own glory that He did this. Why would he shift, with only the animals, from this pattern concerning creation? So, it is not just sentimental to say that these creatures will be restored in Heaven, it is probably going to happen, and makes perfect sense in the scheme of things. Now, I believe that our relationship with them will be changed there, as it is with man. For one thing, the need for them there will not be the same as it is now in a fallen world (just as the need for marriage will no longer be), and our relationship with them there will be perfect. So, the lonely, elderly woman, who has five cats that she treats as her children, because no one cares to visit her, will not NEED to have them in the same relational way there, but that doesn't mean that those specific cats will not be restored in Heaven. Just my opinion, as I said earlier, because I do not believe the Bible spells it out absolutely one way or another. The Lord bless all of you today.
 
Lewis, and Soma, I read both of your posts, and I still believe it is likely that they will be restored there, as they are here.
Lovely, even though the scriptures make it clear, that they won't ?
 
Lovely, that was put perfectly!

I had a resident in a deep state of depression at work. I found out that she used to have a dog before she came to live at the facility that I work at. One night when I was working, my mom had my kids and said she'd bring me something for supper. I asked her to bring one of her dogs.

I have NEVER seen the resident smile the way that she did when my mom got there with the dog. This was a couple weeks ago and she STILL smiles and talks about the dog. I'm going to start doing "pet therapy" at my facility once a week now because I've seen how animals can help my residents.

Even if animals don't go to heaven, I believe that God put some of them here on earth to help us and teach us what unconditional love is all about. They are the sight for blind people. They are the comfort for a child laying in a hospital bed suffering from an illness. They are so much!

But I still believe animals go to heaven. :D
 
Hi Lewis,
I can understand that the spirit lives on after death (eccl 12:7), but where do you get the idea that the soul lives on after physical death? In the Hebrew scriptures, sometimes these words are used interchangeably, but they are not the same. Nor is the soul the 'mind'.
 
A quick look at a concordance and lexicon will show that the translators of the Bible had conflicts to resolve. Preservation of the truth contained in the text was important, but so was the "flow" of the text as understandable in English. Translation may require an entire phrase in a second language, in order to convey accurately, all that is stated and implied by one word in the original language.

On this basis, I would like to focus on one Hebrew/Aramaic word, in order to address the question of animal spirits.

The English word, "spirit", is used 217 times in the New American Standard Version of the Old Testament. Using my Holman's New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, I find that in 213 cases, the original Heb/Aram word behind the English word "spirit", is the Heb/Aram word "ruach". That is to say, that in only 4 uses of the English word, "spirit", was there a word in the original text that was NOT "ruach".

This word, "ruach", also occurs in other places in the Old Testament. For whatever reason, in those passages, the translators felt it best to use another English word, other than "spirit". Here are the other words they chose:

air (used 2 times), anger (1 time), blast (2), breath (31), breathless (1), cool (1), courage (1), despondancy (1), exposed (1), grief (1), heart (1), inspired (1), mind (3), motives (1), points (1), quick-tempered (1), side (4), sides (2), strength (1), temper (2), thoughts (1), trustworthy (1), wind (96), winds (8), windy (2), wrath (1).

Now, to get a sense of the usual uses of the word "ruach", here are some selected (few) passages containing the word. In each verse, you'll find one or more words in ALL CAPS, which indicates the English word that has been translated from the word "ruach". Obviously, I cannot type out all 213 occurances, so these are my own selections.


Genesis 1:2
"And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the SPIRIT (ruach) of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

Genesis 7:20-22

The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. And all flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah) of the SPIRIT (ruach) of life (chayyim), died.

2 Kings 2:15

Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho opposite him saw him, they said, "The SPIRIT (ruach) of Elijah rests on Elisha." And they came to meet him and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

Psalm 31:5

Into Thy hand I commit my SPIRIT (ruach); Thou hast ransomed me, O Lord, God of truth.

Psalm 51:10-11

Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast SPIRIT (ruach) within me. Do not cast me away from Thy presence, And do not take Thy Holy SPIRIT (ruach) from me.

(The word "ruach" is also used to denote "evil spirits"...)

Job 4:15

"Then a SPIRIT (ruach) passed by my face; The hair of my flesh bristled up.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is nothing in the original Hebrew/Aramaic text to seperate the use of the word "ruach" in Genesis 1 and Genesis 7, from its uses in the rest of the Old Testament, except for the fact that those first two verses apply to animals. I believe the word probably means "spirit" in all of its uses.

Now, let me take you to Numbers 22 for a brief comment. In this passage, Balaam's donkey sees an angel, and Balaam does not. There is no mention in this passage of God "opening the eyes of the donkey to see the angel". There IS mention that Balaam did not see the angel until God opened his eyes. Why? Are animals, different in spirit, and aware of such, when humans are not? I speculate that this may be so.

Further, notice that when God "opens the mouth of the donkey", the donkey does NOT speak God's words. Instead, the donkey complains of the treatment Balaam has given it, saying, in essence, that it has always been an obedient donkey in the past, and does not deserve such treatment. Is it possible that the donkey has enough of a sense of self, to feel wronged? Is the donkey self-aware enough to know that its behavior has always been obedient, and therefore, good? Again, it is my speculation that this may be so.

I further have read much information about Koko the gorilla. She speaks in sign language, and has an extensive vocabulary. Koko has invented words for objects that she did not know the sign for, evidence that she is actually using language, not just mimicry or conditioned response. For example, Koko once called a "ring", a "finger-bracelet", because she had never seen a ring before. Similarly, a stale biscuit was signed "cookie-rock"!

Koko has much meaningful dialog with researchers, about "good" and "bad", and obviously interprets this in light of obedience of her human keepers. She also has an awareness of the finality of death, as evidenced by conversations with her about her pet kitten, when it died. (Yes, Koko, an animal, kept a PET)

Coupled with some other minor passages in the Bible, research in the field of "animal awareness", and my own observations, I have concluded that animals have a spirit, but that it is an ANIMAL spirit - different from our own.

However, please remember that these are my SPECULATIONS AND PERSONAL CONCLUSIONS, and that while I may share them with you, I wish no arguing or ill will to result from discussion of them.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/turkishango ... ruach.html
 
Greetings Lewis:

I hope I do not come across as nitpicking (as I consider you to be a genial fellow in all respects), but I do think there is a problem in each of your three interpretations. Consider the Ecclesiastes material:

Ecclesiates 3:19-21
19. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"
Verse 21 reads as a question, not an assertion - the author is saying "who knows if the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of beasts go down?". Consider the NASB rendering: "Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?. In other words, the author is posing a question about the ultimate fate of man and beast, not making a declaration about it.

Consider the next text and your analysisi:

Matthew 18:3
3. "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Can an animal become as little children in Jesus Christ, and be converted? The answer is no, they are not humans, they are beasts of the field. Can a dog believe in God to inherit life, or were animals created as a help, meat, to be used in sacrifices, and for the temporal service of man, whom God has placed to rule (gen. 1:27-28) over them? The answer is obvious.

You argument does not take into account the specific audience that is being addressed. Jesus is saying, "unless ye be.....". I think it is pretty clear that he is talking about human beings here (and not even addressing the matter of animals). Why do I say this? Because, as you say, animals cannot understand the teaching. In order for the teaching to have any effect, it must be addressed to those who can understand it (and dogs and cats cannot). So the teaching leaves the fate of the dogs and cats untouched. One cannot conclude anything (either way) about the fate of dogs and cats from this text.

And your final text:

John 3:5-6
5. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Can an animal be born again of the Spirit? The only rational answer is no. Is an animal clean? God says no. In fact, In scripture God uses dogs and Pigs to illustrate that which is unclean. Can anything be cleansed without blood. Again, God says no. Therefore, for an animal to enter heaven, Christ would have had to die for them as well. And when we start thinking like that, we start having to add to scripture, and making up our own laws and rules to support our thoughts. We've then fallen from Grace and are making an image of God, rather than worshipping the God of the Bible.

Animals were subject to the curse which God placed upon creation because of Adam’s sin. And so not being cleansed by the blood of Christ, it seems clear animals do not go to heaven.
Again Jesus is talking about how men enter the kingdom, not dogs and cats. So this teaching has nothing to say abouts dogs and cats. As to the content of your comment, I would not think that the mere fact that dogs are used as symbols of the unclean is a good argument. If I am not mistaken, doesn't scripture occasionally refer to certain ethnic groups as "unclean" or "not to be mingled with". Are we to assume that such people cannot attain salvation? Of course not.
 
Back
Top