[__ Science __ ] Do Conservatives have a “Difficult Relationship with Science”?

[Quantrill]

My Bible, the NET 2.1, has Genesis 2:4 as " This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created—when the Lord God made the earth and heavens."

The translator's note on the word "account" reads, "The Hebrew phrase אֵלֶּה תּוֹלְדֹת (ʾelleh toledot) is traditionally translated as “these are the generations of” because the noun was derived from the verb “beget.” Its usage, however, shows that it introduces more than genealogies; it begins a narrative that traces what became of the entity or individual mentioned in the heading. In fact, a good paraphrase of this heading would be: “This is what became of the heavens and the earth,” for what follows is not another account of creation but a tracing of events from creation through the fall and judgment (the section extends from 2:4 through 4:26). See M. H. Woudstra, “The Toledot of the Book of Genesis and Their Redemptive-Historical Significance,” CTJ 5 (1970): 184-89. sn The expression this is the account of is an important title used throughout the Book of Genesis, serving as the organizing principle of the work. It is always a heading, introducing the subject matter that is to come. From the starting point of the title, the narrative traces the genealogy or the records or the particulars involved. Although some would make the heading in 2:4 a summary of creation (1:1-2:3), that goes against the usage in the book. As a heading it introduces the theme of the next section, the particulars about this creation that God made. Genesis 2 is not a simple parallel account of creation; rather, beginning with the account of the creation of man and women, the narrative tells what became of that creation. As a beginning, the construction of 2:4-7 forms a fine parallel to the construction of 1:1-3. The subject matter of each תּוֹלְדֹת (toledot, “this is the account of”) section of the book traces a decline or a deterioration through to the next beginning point, and each is thereby a microcosm of the book which begins with divine blessing in the garden, and ends with a coffin in Egypt. So, what became of the creation? Gen 2:4-4:26 will explain that sin entered the world and all but destroyed God’s perfect creation."

I agree with what the well-qualified translators have written, not your mis-exposition of a single word.

No. You agree with the translators note.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

As the percentage of vaccinated people rises, so will the number of vaccinated people being infected. How can that be?
(I'm just tossing out numbers to show the point)
1. Suppose the vaccine is 80 percent effective against infection and 90 percent effective against dying of the infection.
2. Suppose 100 people are vaccinated and exposed to the virus. That means 20 will be infected, and 10 will die of it.
3. Suppose the number vaccinated rises to 1000. 200 will be infected and 100 will die.
4. As more people are vaccinated, the ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated people will affect percentages.

Which means that as vaccinated people increase and unvaccinated people decrease, we will see a larger percentage of infected people being vaccinated, even if the vaccine continues to provide a high level of protection.

Thats just silly nonsense.

Reckless and irresponsable.


The CDC put out a statement saying...


A worsening of infections among the vaccinated.


This is not funny.




JLB

 

[Barbarian]

Thats just silly nonsense.

Reckless and irresponsable.

It's just math, showing how it works. If even a tiny percent of vaccinated people get infected, the more vaccinated people you have, the more infected vaccinated people you will have.

If the percentage of vaccinated people increase relative to unvaccinated people, then you will have a larger percentage of infected vaccinated people relative to unvaccinated people. It's easy to see why, if you think about it.

The CDC put out a statement saying...
A worsening of infections among the vaccinated.

More infected people, anyway. And as predicted, the existing vaccines are nearly as effective at preventing severe diseases from the Delta variant. Notice that the vaccines are much better at preventing severe symptoms than they are at preventing infection:

Early research from the U.K. suggests that, after full vaccination, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is 88% effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19 virus caused by the delta variant. The vaccine is 96% effective at preventing severe disease with the COVID-19 virus caused by the delta variant. The research also showed that the vaccine is 93% effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19 virus caused by the alpha variant.

Get the facts about COVID-19 vaccines

Find out about the COVID-19 vaccines, the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination and the possible side effects.

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Barbarian]

My Bible says "days" -- which means, believe it or not, days. Why should I believe your misinterpretation when all translations say there were days?

Actually, they say "yom." Which can mean "day", "in my time", "always", "forever", etc. But since the events and sequences don't agree in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, we can be sure that they aren't meant to be literal time periods.

On the fourth day:
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. [17] And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. [18] And to rule the day and the night, and to divide the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

But...
On the first day...
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.

Again, if we assume these are literal time periods, they contradict each other.

 

[JLB]

It's just math, showing how it works. If even a tiny percent of vaccinated people get infected, the more vaccinated people you have, the more infected vaccinated people you will have.

If the percentage of vaccinated people increase relative to unvaccinated people, then you will have a larger percentage of infected vaccinated people relative to unvaccinated people. It's easy to see why, if you think about it.


More infected people, anyway. And as predicted, the existing vaccines are nearly as effective at preventing severe diseases from the Delta variant. Notice that the vaccines are much better at preventing severe symptoms than they are at preventing infection:

Early research from the U.K. suggests that, after full vaccination, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is 88% effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19 virus caused by the delta variant. The vaccine is 96% effective at preventing severe disease with the COVID-19 virus caused by the delta variant. The research also showed that the vaccine is 93% effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19 virus caused by the alpha variant.

Get the facts about COVID-19 vaccines

Find out about the COVID-19 vaccines, the benefits of COVID-19 vaccination and the possible side effects.

www.mayoclinic.org

It’s not anything but what you just made up.


The CDC, has stated something that doesn’t align with your programming, so now you are in denial of what the CDC is stating.



JLB

 

[Barbarian]

It’s not anything but what you just made up.

Insert whatever numbers you think are right. It will come out the same way.

The CDC, has stated something that doesn’t align with your programming, so now you are in denial of what the CDC is stating.

As you see, the CDC is correct. I don't see anything therein that conflicts with the data I showed you earlier.
Over the course of the study in Minnesota, Moderna's vaccine was found to be 86% effective against a COVID-19 infection while Pfizer's was 76% effective. Both were also highly effective against hospitalization (Moderna 91.6%, Pfizer 85%), ICU admission (Moderna 93.3%, Pfizer 87%), and death from COVID-19 (no cases found).
...
A UK study published last month found when patients were fully vaccinated, with two shots both given at least two weeks to take effect, Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine became about 88% effective against symptomatic COVID-19 from the Delta variant.

Pfizer and Moderna did not immediately respond to Insider's requests for comment on Thursday. Pfizer told Axios in a statement that it expected "to be able to develop and produce a tailor-made vaccine against" the Delta variant "in approximately 100 days after a decision to do so, subject to regulatory approval."

Pfizer's vaccine may be less effective against the Delta variant, study suggests, even though vaccines help prevent serious illness or death

Vaccines made for the Alpha variant are still effective against infection of the Delta variant, but less so. They are, however, very effective at preventing severe symptoms.

 

[JLB]

Insert whatever numbers you think are right. It will come out the same way.

As you see, the CDC is correct. I don't see anything therein that conflicts with the data I showed you earlier.
Over the course of the study in Minnesota, Moderna's vaccine was found to be 86% effective against a COVID-19 infection while Pfizer's was 76% effective. Both were also highly effective against hospitalization (Moderna 91.6%, Pfizer 85%), ICU admission (Moderna 93.3%, Pfizer 87%), and death from COVID-19 (no cases found).
...
A UK study published last month found when patients were fully vaccinated, with two shots both given at least two weeks to take effect, Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine became about 88% effective against symptomatic COVID-19 from the Delta variant.

Pfizer and Moderna did not immediately respond to Insider's requests for comment on Thursday. Pfizer told Axios in a statement that it expected "to be able to develop and produce a tailor-made vaccine against" the Delta variant "in approximately 100 days after a decision to do so, subject to regulatory approval."

Pfizer's vaccine may be less effective against the Delta variant, study suggests, even though vaccines help prevent serious illness or death

Vaccines made for the Alpha variant are still effective against infection of the Delta variant, but less so. They are, however, very effective at preventing severe symptoms.

There are no “numbers” that are right. It’s not about numbers.

We don’t care what propaganda big Pharma is promoting.

The CDC put out a statement saying...

• A worsening of infections among the vaccinated.

JLB

 

[Barbarian]

There are no “numbers” that are right. It’s not about numbers.

It's about numbers. What percent of unvaccinated people get infected/seriously ill/die? What percent of vaccinated people get infected/seriously ill/die?

What percent of infected people get long-term medical problems?

Those numbers are the ones you need to make a rational decision about vaccination.

We don’t care what propaganda big Pharma is promoting.

Big Pharma isn't doing the research. And if they fund the research, journals require that to be shown up front.

The CDC put out a statement saying...

• A worsening of infections among the vaccinated.

Yes, for the reasons you saw. The current vaccines were set for the Alpha variant. Fortunately, the vaccines also have very good (but somewhat lower) protection against the Delta variant.

The more vaccinated people, the fewer infections, and the fewer new variants evolving from the old ones.

It's all about the numbers.

 

[JLB]

It's about numbers. What percent of unvaccinated people get infected/seriously ill/die? What percent of vaccinated people get infected/seriously ill/die?

What percent of infected people get long-term medical problems?

Those numbers are the ones you need to make a rational decision about vaccination.

Big Pharma isn't doing the research. And if they fund the research, journals require that to be shown up front.

Yes, for the reasons you saw. The current vaccines were set for the Alpha variant. Fortunately, the vaccines also have very good (but somewhat lower) protection against the Delta variant.

The more vaccinated people, the fewer infections, and the fewer new variants evolving from the old ones.

It's all about the numbers.

Its about people. The lives of people.

• A worsening of infections among the vaccinated.

People should know all the facts and current data before making a decision about taking an experimental vaccine.

New information is coming out daily.

 

[Barbarian]

Its about people. The lives of people.

That's why the numbers matter. It tells us what we can do to save those lives.

A worsening of infections among the vaccinated.

Thanks to the unvaccinated who became incubators for new variants. This is not a surprise. It's what we see in every pandemic.

People should know all the facts and current data before making a decision about taking an experimental vaccine.

Which is why the numbers matter. If you don't know the odds, you can't make an informed decision. And none of the vaccines in use are experimental. They are all authorized for use, and the Pfizer vaccine is fully approved.

New information is coming out daily.

Yes. And it's good news:
Among the 4,217 participations, 3,483 -- or 83% -- were vaccinated. About 65% received the Pfizer vaccine, 33% received the Moderna doses, and 2% received the Johnson & Johnson shot. Between December 2020 and April 2021, the vaccines were about 90% effective in preventing infections with and without symptoms.

Between April and August, the Delta variant became more dominant and vaccine efficacy began to drop, though there were still few infections. Researchers found 19 infections among 488 unvaccinated people, and about 95% had symptoms. They also found 24 infections among 2,352 fully vaccinated people, and 75% had symptoms. The study didn’t include details about the type of symptoms or how severe they were.

“It’s still a very powerful vaccine,” Fowlkes told CNN. “But we are also looking towards continuing to use masks for a little bit longer.”
...
The Johnson & Johnson researchers also found that the booster shot increased the supply of immune cells in the body, which can attack the cells infected with the coronavirus. Those results are still being prepared for publication, the newspaper reported.

CDC: COVID-19 Vaccines 66% Effective Against Delta Variant

Vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection dropped from about 91% to 66% once the Delta variant became the dominant strain in the U.S., according to a new study published Tuesday by the CDC.

www.webmd.com

 

[JLB]

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens —​

Note this study was written in July 2015


When vaccines prevent transmission, as is the case for nearly all vaccines used in humans, this type of evolution towards increased virulence is blocked. But when vaccines leak, allowing at least some pathogen transmission, they could create the ecological conditions that would allow hot strains to emerge and persist.


Vaccination could prompt the evolution of more virulent pathogens in the following way. It is usually assumed that the primary force preventing the evolutionary emergence of more virulent strains is that they kill their hosts and, therefore, truncate their own infectious periods. If so, keeping hosts alive with vaccines that reduce disease but do not prevent infection, replication, and transmission (so-called “imperfect” vaccines) could allow more virulent strains to circulate. Natural selection will even favour their circulation if virulent strains have a higher transmission in the absence of host death or are better able to overcome host immunity. Thus, life-saving vaccines have the potential to increase mean disease virulence of a pathogen population (as assayed in unvaccinated hosts)



https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198







Here is the question:


Why wouldn’t a person want to evaluate all aspects of the evidence of a vaccine that was just recently “approved”, and that is so heavily pushed by the Government?







JLB

 

[jaybo]

Actually, they say "yom." Which can mean "day", "in my time", "always", "forever", etc. But since the events and sequences don't agree in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, we can be sure that they aren't meant to be literal time periods.

On the fourth day:
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. [17] And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. [18] And to rule the day and the night, and to divide the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

But...
On the first day...
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.

Again, if we assume these are literal time periods, they contradict each other.

Not necessarily. God created light, but that light wasn't from the sun. It established the Biblical day. The sun, moon, and stars came three days later.

It's my belief that the account was written to emphasize that God created the concepts of day and night, which regulate human behavior.

 

[Barbarian]

Not necessarily. God created light, but that light wasn't from the sun. It established the Biblical day. The sun, moon, and stars came three days later.

It's my belief that the account was written to emphasize that God created the concepts of day and night, which regulate human behavior.

Yes. That's the anachronism, if you take it all literally. He divided day from night. But a literal reading gives you contradictory statements about when it was done.

 

[jaybo]

Yes. That's the anachronism, if you take it all literally. He divided day from night. But a literal reading gives you contradictory statements about when it was done.

Not if you understand it. God created light and separated it from darkness.

Genesis 1:2-5, "Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. God said, “Let there be light.” And there was light! God saw that the light was good, so God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” There was evening, and there was morning, marking the first day."

There is no contradiction here. Day 1 was the creation of the day and the night. Genesis 1:14-15, " God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs to indicate seasons and days and years, and let them serve as lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” It was so." Day 4 was the creation of physical light, as calendar indicators and physical objects in the sky.

The creation of day and night (governing human activity) came on Day 1. The physical lights -- the sun, the moon, and the stars, were created three days later to mark the passing of time and also to give light on the earth.

I believe that if you don't focus on the physical lights -- sun, moon, and stars -- and focus on human activity: daytime to work, nighttime to rest, and on the passing of time -- days, months, years -- you will have a better understanding of Genesis 1.

 

[Barbarian]

When vaccines prevent transmission, as is the case for nearly all vaccines used in humans, this type of evolution towards increased virulence is blocked. But when vaccines leak, allowing at least some pathogen transmission, they could create the ecological conditions that would allow hot strains to emerge and persist.

Vaccines like the COVID-19 vaccines do not necessarily prevent transmission. They reduce transmission and greatly reduce severe symptoms. However, the authors are incorrect about "nearly all vaccines." One of the most commonly-used, measles:

Euro Surveill. 2019 Apr 25; 24(17): 1900114.

Measles outbreak in Gothenburg urban area, Sweden, 2017 to 2018: low viral load in breakthrough infections​

Measles viral load was significantly lower in nasopharyngeal samples from individuals with breakthrough compared with naïve infections (median Ct-values: 32 and 19, respectively, p < 0.0001). No onward transmission from breakthrough infections was identified. Our results indicate that a high risk of onward transmission is limited to naïve infections.

Since favorable mutations don't happen in response to need, and since transmission of virus in "leaky" cases is much lower than in naive cases, that would explain why (for example) breakthrough cases of measles has not resulted in a more virulent measles virus.

Such breakthrough infections also occur in people vaccinated for chicken pox, mumps, and Hepatitis B.

Breakthrough infection - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm unaware of these vaccines causing any increase in virulence of the viruses involved. Still looking, but so far, I haven't found any such instances in the literature.

 

[Barbarian]

Not if you understand it. God created light and separated it from darkness.

Genesis 1:2-5, "Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. God said, “Let there be light.” And there was light! God saw that the light was good, so God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness “night.” There was evening, and there was morning, marking the first day."

There is no contradiction here. Day 1 was the creation of the day and the night. Genesis 1:14-15, " God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs to indicate seasons and days and years, and let them serve as lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” It was so." Day 4 was the creation of physical light, as calendar indicators and physical objects in the sky.

The creation of day and night (governing human activity) came on Day 1. The physical lights -- the sun, the moon, and the stars, were created three days later to mark the passing of time and also to give light on the earth.

I believe that if you don't focus on the physical lights -- sun, moon, and stars -- and focus on human activity: daytime to work, nighttime to rest, and on the passing of time -- days, months, years -- you will have a better understanding of Genesis 1.

I can see that understanding it figuratively does make more sense. The universe as it is, and then His description of how it is organized for man. Makes sense.

 

[Barbarian]

Here is the question:

Why wouldn’t a person want to evaluate all aspects of the evidence of a vaccine that was just recently “approved”, and that is so heavily pushed by the Government?

Of course. But I notice that getting information from doctors and epidemiologists is more reliable than getting it from politicians and bloggers.

I notice that the people who seem to know the least, are most outspoken against the science. Which is pretty much the way human nature works.

"Most people are down on things they aren't up on."
Everett Dirksen

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering

My Scripture reference in post #(131) concerning the 7th day should be (Gen. 2:1-3).

(Gen. 2) is not another account of God's order of creating. It is supplementary to (Gen. 1). It gives additional information to the account given in (Gen. 1).

My point is that the order is not important in (Gen. 2:4-25). The relationship of man to the creation is the emphasis. Thus (Gen. 2:4) says, "These are the 'generations' of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."

Quantrill

I know Quantrill...this is the common explanation of the difference between chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis.

God made the first two people. I don't know how anyone could believe we crawled out of the primordial soup. But I don't know that their names were Adam and Eve. Somehow they got that sin nature and it couldn't have been from the God Jesus represented.

 

[Quantrill]

I know Quantrill...this is the common explanation of the difference between chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis.

God made the first two people. I don't know how anyone could believe we crawled out of the primordial soup. But I don't know that their names were Adam and Eve. Somehow they got that sin nature and it couldn't have been from the God Jesus represented.

Well...the Book that says God made the first two people, said their names were Adam and Eve.

And...the Book that says God made the first two people explains how they got their sin nature.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

Well...the Book that says God made the first two people, said their names were Adam and Eve.

And...the Book that says God made the first two people explains how they got their sin nature.

Quantrill

How did they get the sin nature?