S
stray bullet
Guest
Georges said:
What two mistruths would those be? That's not a very compelling argument.
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Do the catholics know why Jesus told us...
- Thread starter Heidi
- Start date
What two mistruths would those be? That's not a very compelling argument.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
I apologize if my responses did not answer your question...To get a good explanation of the Catholic interpretation of Mathew 23:9, might I recommend:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
.
I apologize if my responses did not answer your question...To get a good explanation of the Catholic interpretation of Mathew 23:9, might I recommend:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
Your link explained that Jesus doesn't want religious people to refer to themselves as "father" because it should be reserved for God. But that's exactly how the catholics use the term Father!! Catholic priests are neither our biological fathers nor are they our Father in heaven. So there is zero reason to use the word "father" when referring to catholic priests (who by the way, are not biblical either because the NT says we only have one priest and that is Christ.) Paul is the father of the gospel which is why we don't call Paul; "Father" either. But priests are not the fathers of the church, Christ is.
Also, Jesus doesn't want us to call anyone on earth "father" precisely because we will be confused about who we should follow; earthly religious leaders or Christ. And since most catholics defend the pope over Christ's words, then they are proving why Jesus told us not to do this. Jesus told us that we are all brothers and that the only one we ashould look to as having the truth is Christ alone. And that's why he also said that we have one teacher and that is the Christ.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
Are we to call our biological father, "father"? If so then this would be making an exception to Christ's command as you understand it.
No, priests are not our Father in heaven, but neither is my biological father.
Do I call my father by his first name? Do I call him Mr. Smith? (Which translates to Master Smith and that's out too; see Mat. 23;10.)
Are we to call our biological father, "father"? If so then this would be making an exception to Christ's command as you understand it.
No, priests are not our Father in heaven, but neither is my biological father.
Do I call my father by his first name? Do I call him Mr. Smith? (Which translates to Master Smith and that's out too; see Mat. 23;10.)
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
Are we to call our biological father, "father"? If so then this would be making an exception to Christ's command as you understand it.
No, priests are not our Father in heaven, but neither is my biological father.
Do I call my father by his first name? Do I call him Mr. Smith? (Which translates to Master Smith and that's out too; see Mat. 23;10.)[/quote:9668e]
What Jesus was saying is that anyone born again of God now has a new father who replaces the old one. Our relationships on this earth are only a shadow of what our relationship to God should be. We parents are to treat our children as God treats us. We are there to nurture, comfort, provide food, shelter, clothing and guidance. But once we are born again of God, we now look to Him for those things instead of people. Jesus was especially talking about our religious leaders who are not to play the role as our father. Yet again, this is exactly what the catholic church wants to do. Again, there is absolutely no reason to call priests our fathers. None. We aren't even supposed to have priests because Jesus has replaced our earthly priests and our earthly fathers. So this is what Jesus means.
Also, in Hebrews, 2: 11, says; "Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says; "I will declare your name to my brothers: in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises." Jesus sees us as brothers to him because those born again of the Holy Spirit and Jesus all come from the same father.
So all the catholics have to do is read the bible to see what Jesus wants. But they don't. They try to replace Jesus as our priest, call themselves our fathers then make up their own gospels. Jesus isn't ashamed to call us his brothers, yet the catholics have the unmitigating audacity to call themselves our fathers! There is no reason to do this and absolutely no excuse for it. :evil:
Also, Jesus makes it quite clear that many whill call him Lord, and even perfom miracles in his name yet when the owner of the house closes the door, he will say; 'I never knew you. Get away from me you evildoers!" All people who call Jesus Lord think they are going to heaven. But Jesus tells us otherwise; "Only those who do the will of my Father" will enter the kingdom of heaven. But the catholics do not do his will. They try to take his place and do their own will. They are in for an even ruder awakening than atheists who admit they defy God, when they die. 
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
So....then when addressing:
My father: I call him by his first name because he is not my Heavenly Father? Mattthew 23:9
My teacher at school: Call him Mike, because Mr. (Translation: Master) is a violation of Christ's command? Matthew 23:10
In fact I shouldn't have said "teacher" (Translation: Rabbi) because that would be another violation of Christ's command. Matthew 23:8
My dear sister in Christ: What our Blessed Lord is saying is that we must never elevate men to the level of our Heavenly Father.
I address elder men as Mr. out of respect. I acknowelege their superiority not as a form of worship but respect.
I call teachers “teacher†out of respect for their greater knowelege. Yet, I am not comparing their knowelege to that of the Father who know all things.
And finally, I call my father, “father†to honor him as I am commanded to honor him.
This is un-biblical: The holy Apostle’s often speak of having spiritual children (e.g. Peter with Mark, Paul with Timothy, Paul with the Corinthians, Abraham as our Father in faith etc.)
So....then when addressing:
My father: I call him by his first name because he is not my Heavenly Father? Mattthew 23:9
My teacher at school: Call him Mike, because Mr. (Translation: Master) is a violation of Christ's command? Matthew 23:10
In fact I shouldn't have said "teacher" (Translation: Rabbi) because that would be another violation of Christ's command. Matthew 23:8
My dear sister in Christ: What our Blessed Lord is saying is that we must never elevate men to the level of our Heavenly Father.
I address elder men as Mr. out of respect. I acknowelege their superiority not as a form of worship but respect.
I call teachers “teacher†out of respect for their greater knowelege. Yet, I am not comparing their knowelege to that of the Father who know all things.
And finally, I call my father, “father†to honor him as I am commanded to honor him.
This is un-biblical: The holy Apostle’s often speak of having spiritual children (e.g. Peter with Mark, Paul with Timothy, Paul with the Corinthians, Abraham as our Father in faith etc.)
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
How am I disagreeing with Jesus?
How am I disagreeing with Jesus?
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
Then please explain what Jesus means by not calling anyone on earth "Father". And when you explain it, look at the context in which it was written and who Jesus was talking about. You said that it was unbiblical that Jesus was talking about religious leaders when the verses in which he explains why not to call anyone on earth; "Father" tell us he is talking about religious leaders.
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
What Jesus meant was that we should not address our religious leaders as father with the same magnitude as we would God the Father.
In Sacred Scripture Jesus often criticizes the Jewish leaders for their arrogance.
As our Blessed Lord states, they love, "The place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matt. 23:6–7).
To summarize: They love to be glorified.
When Jesus said Call no man Father, Teacher, or Master, He meant never regard men with the same magnitude as that of God.
"For you are all brethren" our Lord said. We are all human beings not divine beings.
Yet, He is not saying that we cannot regard a person as being above us (In human terms). My father is above me, that's why I am commanded to honor him.
The Apostles often refer to their followers as children. St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4:14-15, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel"
The Apostles were above their children in Christ. The Priest is above his children in Christ.
With the Church's interpretation of Mathew 23:9, I do not call a priest father with the same magnitude as I would Almighty God. But, I acknowledge his spiritual fatherhood as the Apostles were acknoweleged for thiers.
God Love You
What Jesus meant was that we should not address our religious leaders as father with the same magnitude as we would God the Father.
In Sacred Scripture Jesus often criticizes the Jewish leaders for their arrogance.
As our Blessed Lord states, they love, "The place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matt. 23:6–7).
To summarize: They love to be glorified.
When Jesus said Call no man Father, Teacher, or Master, He meant never regard men with the same magnitude as that of God.
"For you are all brethren" our Lord said. We are all human beings not divine beings.
Yet, He is not saying that we cannot regard a person as being above us (In human terms). My father is above me, that's why I am commanded to honor him.
The Apostles often refer to their followers as children. St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4:14-15, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel"
The Apostles were above their children in Christ. The Priest is above his children in Christ.
With the Church's interpretation of Mathew 23:9, I do not call a priest father with the same magnitude as I would Almighty God. But, I acknowledge his spiritual fatherhood as the Apostles were acknoweleged for thiers.
God Love You
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
But the problem is that they do confuse God with the pope. Most catholics believe the catechism over the bible. Most catholics ignore Christ's words about not calling anyone "Father". Most catholics have made up their own gospel that Mary was a virgin all of her life. Most catholics erect statues of people and bow down to them. Catholics have also had the audacity to declare what is a "mortal" sin and what is not when Jesus said there is only one unpardonable sin!
So the catholics have proven Christ right when he told us not to call anyone Father. Calling human beings "Our Holy Father" confuses people on which one to follow. And since most catholics defend the catholic church over the bible, then they have indeed replaced God with the pope as their Holy Father!
You can't disagree or disobey Jesus without consequences, my friend. And if people don't believe that when they're alive, I guarantee they'll find that out when they die.
C
CatholicXian
Guest
Heidi, where does the Catechism contradict the Bible? Point by point.Heidi said:
Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Heidi? Do you own a copy? Or have you borrowed one from the library? If you're just using cut-n-paste snippets of what other people say the Catechism says, then you're going to be gravely mistaken. The Catechism has to be taken as a whole-- because it has context.
And the Catechism itself speaks highly of the Bible!
CCC 102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely: You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.
CCC 103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.
CCC 104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God". "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."
CCC 131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life." Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."
CCC 132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."
CCC 133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.