Do we have free will as sinners?

[JWdant]

After reading (Romans 6) it does look as if 'total' Free Will is only given to believers in Christ to the full measure. Does knowing sin as it truly is give a person a better sense of Free Will? opinions and scripture welcome

 

[for_his_glory]

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​

 

[miamited]

HI JWdant

We have free will in everything that we do. What happens when one is born again, born from above as Jesus once mentioned, is that our will begins to align with God's will through the guidance and conviction and encouragement of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We become, as Jesus prayed for us in the garden, one. One with God and Jesus through the Spirit. Our will also begins to be transformed by the word. The Scriptures tell us how the washing of our minds with the word of God, also convicts us of sin and righteousness. It says that we may know every good thing to do.

So now, when something comes along that we know to be sin, we still have free will, but for those who love Jesus, they choose to keep his commands. They choose to live in a manner that exemplifies and glorifies Jesus.

But we all have free will in everything that we do, which is why there is also the problem of those who are born from above who 'squelch' the Spirit. While they know that what they are doing is against what God has said, either in error or intent, they go ahead anyway. Here's where repentance and future forgiveness of sin comes into play.

For the one born of the Spirit, they cannot continue to walk in sin, and not have their conscience burning within them. This is what Jesus called 'conviction'. Jesus said that once we were guided by the Spirit that it was His job to convict us of both sin and righteousness.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JWdant]

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​

I really like your answer. The last sentence ties it together. Too bad Calvinist don't understand predestination.

 

[lastofall]

for me anyway, beside the scholastic achievers definition of sin, there is a practical, plain talk definition of sin, namely, sin is the voluntarily departure from the morality prescribed by God: they who put their trust into the hands and power if sin are of the devil, as scripture tells us: contrariwise, whosoever is born of God does not put their trust into the hands and power of sin. The penitent sinners are they which do quarrel with sin, and battle against sin all the day long; but they never have any quarrel with what is right: contrariwise, the impenitent are they that do quarrel with, and battle against what is right; but these have no quarrel with sin: this is the dividing asunder, the great gulf fixed; the vast difference between those that have the fear of God before their eyes, and those that do not. The true followers of the Lord Jesus Christ do repent and own their sins, and deny (disown) their own will all the day long; so that they may submit to and rely upon the Word of God all the day long; they have learned to no think above that which is written, knowing that any thing above that which is written it where exaggeration and over-estimation dwelleth: contrariwise, the unbelievers and hypocrites do not repent and own their sins, and do not deny (disown) their own will, but rather insist upon it; so that they will submit to and rely upon their own will all the day long; these also prefer to think above that which is written, regarding that above that which is written is where true wisdom dwelleth. The grace of our Lord Jesus christ be with you.

 

[for_his_glory]

I really like your answer. The last sentence ties it together. Too bad Calvinist don't understand predestination.

Thank you, but please do not make this about Calvinist as it will cause debates which are not allowed in the Question & Answer forum.

 

[JWdant]

for me anyway, beside the scholastic achievers definition of sin, there is a practical, plain talk definition of sin, namely, sin is the voluntarily departure from the morality prescribed by God: they who put their trust into the hands and power if sin are of the devil, as scripture tells us: contrariwise, whosoever is born of God does not put their trust into the hands and power of sin. The penitent sinners are they which do quarrel with sin, and battle against sin all the day long; but they never have any quarrel with what is right: contrariwise, the impenitent are they that do quarrel with, and battle against what is right; but these have no quarrel with sin: this is the dividing asunder, the great gulf fixed; the vast difference between those that have the fear of God before their eyes, and those that do not. The true followers of the Lord Jesus Christ do repent and own their sins, and deny (disown) their own will all the day long; so that they may submit to and rely upon the Word of God all the day long; they have learned to no think above that which is written, knowing that any thing above that which is written it where exaggeration and over-estimation dwelleth: contrariwise, the unbelievers and hypocrites do not repent and own their sins, and do not deny (disown) their own will, but rather insist upon it; so that they will submit to and rely upon their own will all the day long; these also prefer to think above that which is written, regarding that above that which is written is where true wisdom dwelleth. The grace of our Lord Jesus christ be with you.

Thank you for your reply. I don't know if all Christians, some Christians or few Christians quarrel with sin but those who do I pray for as I pray for myself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

After reading (Romans 6) it does look as if 'total' Free Will is only given to believers in Christ to the full measure.

Yes, the free will to decide between good and evil only belongs to born again believers. But the argument can be made that as long as a person continues to believe they cannot become slaves to unrighteousness again. They can do it, but, in the end, they can't become slaves to it again as they were before they were born again. They would have to go back to unbelief for that to happen. And whether or not they can go back to unbelief is a whole 'nuther can of wiggly worms.

 

[JWdant]

Yes, the free will to decide between good and evil only belongs to born again believers. But the argument can be made that as long as a person continues to believe they cannot become slaves to unrighteousness again. They can do it, but, in the end, they can't become slaves to it again as they were before they were born again. They would have to go back to unbelief for that to happen. And whether or not they can go back to unbelief is a whole 'nuther can of wiggly worms.

Thanks for reassuring that "Trinity" is needed for man's sake; knowing the Holy Spirit continues to admonish those in Christ so we can live in the presence God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

After reading (Romans 6) it does look as if 'total' Free Will is only given to believers in Christ to the full measure. Does knowing sin as it truly is give a person a better sense of Free Will? opinions and scripture welcome

Can you please present where you see this in those passages? Thanks.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

After reading (Romans 6) it does look as if 'total' Free Will is only given to believers in Christ to the full measure. Does knowing sin as it truly is give a person a better sense of Free Will?
opinions and scripture welcome

I believe Rom.6 shows the result of sin, which gives people a better sense of why we abstain from it.

do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?.....How can we who died to sin still live in it? Rom.6:3-2

He's asking how can anyone continue in sin, if he is "baptized into Christ" (suffering as Jesus did, not for wrongdoing, but for doing right), or,

resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb.12:4

 

[Tenchi]

After reading (Romans 6) it does look as if 'total' Free Will is only given to believers in Christ to the full measure. Does knowing sin as it truly is give a person a better sense of Free Will? opinions and scripture welcome

I don't think there is such a thing as "total free will." How would such a thing be possible when we have no control over our base intelligence, our life experiences growing up, the influence of culture upon our thinking and preferences, and so on? In regards to sin, Romans 6 suggests that prior to salvation, we are all under the power of the "old man," who is the person we are without God, bound under the World, the Flesh and the devil, incorrigibly rebellious toward God and unable to please Him. (Titus 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 1:21; Romans 8:5-8) Are we utterly without capacity to even recognize the need for salvation and/or to understand the Gospel? No. But we certainly require God's help in coming to a place where we can positively respond to the Gospel, in humility choosing to trust in Christ as our Savior and Lord (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25).

Does the Spirit impart to believers a "full measure" of free will? I don't know what is meant by "full measure." They certainly have a new capacity to live free of the sin-producing power of the "old man." Is this a power-up, or expansion, of their free will? Paul explains it as a separation from the "old man" through crucifixion of him, not as an increase in one's free will. Is the effect of this crucifixion a liberated will? Yes, I think so. Every choice a person makes to sin has an increasingly limiting effect on their following choices. Soft libertarians describe this as the process of "will-setting moments." An extreme example of this would be the addict who freely chose at the first the thing they eventually became unable to resist.

Is one better able to exert their will freely when they "know sin as it truly is"? I don't know what you mean by "as it truly is." Can you explain? Is there a secret nature to sin hidden from the sinner's, or righteous person's, view? If so, how do you think this secret nature is discovered, exactly?

 

[JWdant]

I don't think there is such a thing as "total free will." How would such a thing be possible when we have no control over our base intelligence, our life experiences growing up, the influence of culture upon our thinking and preferences, and so on? In regards to sin, Romans 6 suggests that prior to salvation, we are all under the power of the "old man," who is the person we are without God, bound under the World, the Flesh and the devil, incorrigibly rebellious toward God and unable to please Him. (Titus 3:3; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 1:21; Romans 8:5-8) Are we utterly without capacity to even recognize the need for salvation and/or to understand the Gospel? No. But we certainly require God's help in coming to a place where we can positively respond to the Gospel, in humility choosing to trust in Christ as our Savior and Lord (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25).

Does the Spirit impart to believers a "full measure" of free will? I don't know what is meant by "full measure." They certainly have a new capacity to live free of the sin-producing power of the "old man." Is this a power-up, or expansion, of their free will? Paul explains it as a separation from the "old man" through crucifixion of him, not as an increase in one's free will. Is the effect of this crucifixion a liberated will? Yes, I think so. Every choice a person makes to sin has an increasingly limiting effect on their following choices. Soft libertarians describe this as the process of "will-setting moments." An extreme example of this would be the addict who freely chose at the first the thing they eventually became unable to resist.

Is one better able to exert their will freely when they "know sin as it truly is"? I don't know what you mean by "as it truly is." Can you explain? Is there a secret nature to sin hidden from the sinner's, or righteous person's, view? If so, how do you think this secret nature is discovered, exactly?

I'll do my best to try an explain my words. I write from a Christian family perspective and see things from that point of view. I understand children grow up in different and sometime in unchristian homes with "home" being questionable. (1) Free will with full measure: Matthew 18:1-5; as a child I had free will of thought not movement. My free will of movement wasn't until my age of accountability. Referencing Matthew 18:1-5 after becoming a Christian I look forward to free will of thought and movement with no worry of the sin nature I carry from Adam. I understand that a person receiving sanctification doesn't take away the sin nature of man but the "full measure" of "free will" allows the new man to see sin that was not visible in the old man.

My last sentence is the best I can reply to the secret nature of hidden sin.

 

[JWdant]

Can you please present where you see this in those passages? Thanks.

Second paragraph is a copy of how I explained "free will with full measure" as I understand it. Full measure is knowing more about the sin nature of man. Knowing more sometimes doesn't make you feel comfortable but it helps in decision making.

Copied and pasted: I'll do my best to try an explain my words. I write from a Christian family perspective and see things from that point of view. I understand children grow up in different and sometime in unchristian homes with "home" being questionable. (1) Free will with full measure: Matthew 18:1-5; as a child I had free will of thought not movement. My free will of movement wasn't until my age of accountability. Referencing Matthew 18:1-5 after becoming a Christian I look forward to free will of thought and movement with no worry of the sin nature I carry from Adam. I understand that a person receiving sanctification doesn't take away the sin nature of man but the "full measure" of "free will" allows the new man to see sin that was not visible in the old man.

 

[Tenchi]

after becoming a Christian I look forward to free will of thought and movement with no worry of the sin nature I carry from Adam. I understand that a person receiving sanctification doesn't take away the sin nature of man but the "full measure" of "free will" allows the new man to see sin that was not visible in the old man.

My last sentence is the best I can reply to the secret nature of hidden sin.

I am not sure that I still carry the Adamic nature as one who has been born-again and made a new creature in Christ (John 3:3-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17). I have habits of thought and practice that may contend with who I have become in Jesus, the devil also luring me into sin with his lies and manipulations, and the World constantly inundating me with its entertainments, philosophies, and corrupt values, but I am "made new" as an adopted, Spirit-indwelt, child of God, free of the power of "the body of this death" (Romans 7:24-25).

Colossians 3:1-5 (NASB)
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 5:24 (NASB)
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Anyway, what clarity I gain on the true nature and extent of sin in my life as a born-again person is not, I think, a feature of an expanded freedom of will, but of the work of the Holy Spirit who illuminates my understanding to the Truth, exposing my self-deceptions and rooting them out, replacing them with "the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:10-16) As he does this, I recognize that a holy life, which is essential to properly enjoying God (Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Peter 1:14-16), is very different from the life I understood it to be. This is, though, again, a revelation - usually progressive - given by the Holy Spirit.

Is this what you've seen in your own life?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I have a baptism to be baptized with Lk.12:50

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with Mt.20:23

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Second paragraph is a copy of how I explained "free will with full measure" as I understand it. Full measure is knowing more about the sin nature of man. Knowing more sometimes doesn't make you feel comfortable but it helps in decision making.

Copied and pasted: I'll do my best to try an explain my words. I write from a Christian family perspective and see things from that point of view. I understand children grow up in different and sometime in unchristian homes with "home" being questionable. (1) Free will with full measure: Matthew 18:1-5; as a child I had free will of thought not movement.

At athat time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 Then Jesus called a little bchild to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I sayto you, cunless you are convertedand become as little children, youwill by no means enter the kingdomof heaven. 4 dTherefore whoeverhumbles himself as this little childis the greatest in the kingdom ofheaven. 5 eWhoever receives onelittle child like this in My namereceives Me.

Not a word about “free will with full measure” here that I can see. Jesus doesn’t discuss free will here or where do you see this? And why do you think children don’t have free movement? One of the adult struggles with children IS their free movement at wrong times and places.

My free will of movement wasn't until my age of accountability.

You couldn’t move freely until puberty???

Referencing Matthew 18:1-5 after becoming a Christian I look forward to free will of thought and movement with no worry of the sin nature I carry from Adam. I understand that a person receiving sanctification doesn't take away the sin nature of man but the "full measure" of "free will" allows the new man to see sin that was not visible in the old man.

Well, I’m a very practical person. I apply scripture to real life as well as theology (not the same.) I DO NOT SEE that christians see their sin clearly. I have known real christians to commit every sin but murder. Christians talk to each other in dreadfully abusive words and don’t see it at all. So this theory doesn’t match real life and I’m interested in theological theory that does.

 

[JWdant]

At athat time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 Then Jesus called a little bchild to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I sayto you, cunless you are convertedand become as little children, youwill by no means enter the kingdomof heaven. 4 dTherefore whoeverhumbles himself as this little childis the greatest in the kingdom ofheaven. 5 eWhoever receives onelittle child like this in My namereceives Me.

Not a word about “free will with full measure” here that I can see. Jesus doesn’t discuss free will here or where do you see this? And why do you think children don’t have free movement? One of the adult struggles with children IS their free movement at wrong times and places.

You couldn’t move freely until puberty???

Well, I’m a very practical person. I apply scripture to real life as well as theology (not the same.) I DO NOT SEE that christians see their sin clearly. I have known real christians to commit every sin but murder. Christians talk to each other in dreadfully abusive words and don’t see it at all. So this theory doesn’t match real life and I’m interested in theological theory that does.

Sorry you don't see children as reborn from repentance and sanctification from God in reference to Matthew 18:1–5. I should have explained free will of movement as age of accountability. example: A child takes a cookie they know they are not to have. The child hides the cookie. Some adults would think it is cute. Some would see it as sin nature. I will try and be more careful in my words. You gave an example of what I call 'full measure'.

I DO NOT SEE that christians see their sin clearly. I have known real christians to commit every sin but murder. Christians talk to each other in dreadfully abusive words and don’t see it at all.

 

[JWdant]

I am not sure that I still carry the Adamic nature as one who has been born-again and made a new creature in Christ (John 3:3-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17). I have habits of thought and practice that may contend with who I have become in Jesus, the devil also luring me into sin with his lies and manipulations, and the World constantly inundating me with its entertainments, philosophies, and corrupt values, but I am "made new" as an adopted, Spirit-indwelt, child of God, free of the power of "the body of this death" (Romans 7:24-25).

Colossians 3:1-5 (NASB)
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 5:24 (NASB)
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Anyway, what clarity I gain on the true nature and extent of sin in my life as a born-again person is not, I think, a feature of an expanded freedom of will, but of the work of the Holy Spirit who illuminates my understanding to the Truth, exposing my self-deceptions and rooting them out, replacing them with "the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:10-16) As he does this, I recognize that a holy life, which is essential to properly enjoying God (Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Peter 1:14-16), is very different from the life I understood it to be. This is, though, again, a revelation - usually progressive - given by the Holy Spirit.

Is this what you've seen in your own life?

Yes and living it until Christ returns or death.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sorry you don't see children as reborn from repentance and sanctification from God in reference to Matthew 18:1–5.

When did I say that? You can stop being sorry because I DIDNT say that. Be at peace.

I should have explained free will of movement as age of accountability.

Huh? Can you explain how being able to move only comes at a certain age?

example: A child takes a cookie they know they are not to have. The child hides the cookie. Some adults would think it is cute. Some would see it as sin nature. I will try and be more careful in my words. You gave an example of what I call 'full measure'.

It doesn’t interest me what others say who aren’t a part of this discussion. But the child HAD freedom of moment and was not at an age of accountability so this needs explanation. The child has freedom of movement.