Do we KNOW Christianity is true?

[Mister E]

I'm actually going to respond, Mister E, because you could scarcely have said it better. What this site wants - or thinks it wants - is some sort of permanent Vacation Bible School. When the Old Guard departed - including me - that stated goal of stovebolts was a kinder, gentler, lets-all-just-get-along brand of Christianity. Alas, that doesn't exist outside of Vacation Bible School and probably not even there. The site became so boring that it dwindled to nothing. Mindless Christianity isn't appealing to anyone but the mindless. It reduces what could be an interesting - and, yes, even edifying - site in lowest-common-denominator Christianity. And the lowest common denominator of Christianity is closer to a mental illness than a faith. It's a faith - if it's that at all - based largely on fear.

Glad to see you posting!

And for what it’s worth, I sense an honest effort from stovebolts to make some room for at least a little unorthodox discussion.

 

[Runner]

Glad to see you posting!

And for what it’s worth, I sense an honest effort from stovebolts to make some room for at least a little unorthodox discussion.

Just so you know, stovebolts is the one who moved this thread here. stovebolts is responsible for those who are Staff Members and Administrators.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Mister E and Runner, stovebolts is just a man like all of us. Cut him some slack. He is trying and has made improvements. He doesn’t claim it’s perfect.

Remember as you judge so you will be judged so have some mercy. You’ve had the chance now to voice your views and have gotten that off your chests. I know the mod you speak of but maybe she’s all he has. I will tell you a secret of how to deal with less than optimal people in positions of power.

Be aware that while you are NOT responsible for their soul, you are responsible for your own. For what we become as a result of our choices, we will have to answer for!! There’s a time to voice/suggest what we consider to be beneficial changes and there’s a time to have then mercy and forgive.

Not only will this help towards improvements you seek, but it will change you. And an added benefit is that you will personally be rewarded by God almighty for being like Jesus at that point in time to those people. You will find grace and mercy from Him, and a movement towards greater intimacy with Him. It’s worth it, gentlemen.

 

[Mister E]

@Mister E and @Runner, @stovebolts is just a man like all of us. Cut him some slack. He is trying and has made improvements. He doesn’t claim it’s perfect.

umm... that's why I said what I said-

And for what it’s worth, I sense an honest effort from @stovebolts to make some room for at least a little unorthodox discussion.

 

[JLB]

Epistemology keeps rearing its head on threads on which I participate. This is the branch of philosophy dealing with knowledge - what knowledge is and what it means to claim we "know" something.

I keep being told I say things that don't sound very Christian. I keep responding, "This is a matter of epistemology." So here we are.

To claim we have knowledge, we must have some legitimate basis for the claim. A legitimate basis is called justification or warrant. (As we'll discuss, knowledge requires more than mere justification, but it does require that.)

Famed Christian epistemologist Alvin Plantinga says Christians can claim to have justification for their beliefs without any evidence whatsoever. He says we can claim to have justification on the basis of our internal sensus divinitatis (sense of the divine) and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit.

However, even Plantinga agrees this doesn't mean Christian belief is true, merely that it isn't irrational. "Justified" basically means "not irrational." It doesn't mean "true."

How do we determine if Christianity is true - or can we?

I believe there are threshold truth questions: Is naturalism true? If it is, there is no god. If it isn't, there may be a god of some sort. (Not all atheism is naturalistic - many atheists believe in life after death and some sort of spiritual realm.)

If we decide naturalism isn't true, which ism is then most likely to be true - non-naturalistic atheism, deism or theism? If we decide it's theism, which version of theism? (Christianity, of course, is a species of theism.)

These are all ultimate metaphysical questions. As a finite human being, I'm like a goldfish in a bowl trying to explain the reality outside the room in which the bowl is located. I can never really know to a 100% objective certainty whether naturalism is true or false, theism is true or false, or Christianity is true or false. I can only reach a level of conviction on these matters.

On each of these matters, I believe we reach a level of conviction through experience, observation, study, reflection and intuition. At some point, we reach a level of conviction naturalism is false, theism is true, and Christianity is true. We have a rational, well-justified, defensible conviction. The more diligent our quest, the more solid our convictions will be.

(Obviously, few people address these matters in a tidy order. It's usually more of a jumbled mess, but we do reach convictions on the critical questions.)

Christianity, of course, also includes the notion of revelation by God - in the Bible, in the person of Jesus, in the indwelling of the Spirit. However, I only believe and experience these things as revelations by God after I've reached a conviction Christianity is true. They may strongly reinforce my conviction to the point where I claim to "know" Christianity is true, but a Jew, Muslim or Hindu can make the same sorts of claims and so we're really still talking about a very strong conviction rather than knowledge.

This being the case, I never claim more for my Christian beliefs than I rationally can. I don't play the "pretend certainty" game, even though I've had a startling born-again experience, several other paranormal experiences, and several complex life events I can only attribute to the hand of God. Convincing as they were to me, they all might be explained in other ways - including defects in my own thinking and perceptions. (Significantly, even Plantinga admits his epistemology only works with properly functioning mental faculties.)

Honesty compels me to admit that, remote as the possibility may seem to me, naturalistic atheism, Buddhism or Hinduism might be true. Lots of very intelligent people who have engaged in diligent quests believe these things.

Honesty also compels me to admit my mainstream understanding of Christianity might be only 73% or 48% true.

I thus don't claim any more for my Christian beliefs than conviction. I try to live as though they were true while accepting they might not be. I examine and question them continually, both because it's enjoyable and because my goal is to get as close to metaphysical Truth as I can in this lifetime. I don't think there is anything irreligious or un-Christian about this.

So that's my notion of epistemology.

Many Christians, like other believers, were indoctrinated into their beliefs as children. Many Christians, like other believers, hold their beliefs mostly on the basis of cultural conditioning. Others went directly to Christianity as the result of a single mystical experience of some sort. Perhaps they simple heard the Gospel and had an "A-ha!" moment inspired by the Holy Spirit. Many of these folks have never examined or questioned their beliefs. This doesn't mean they "aren't real Christians" or are somehow "lesser Christians." Many do claim "knowledge" or "certainty" they don't really have - not in any epistemic sense anyway - because they're afraid to confront what they actually do believe and why. That's fine - when they question my Christianity, I realize it's mostly just a defense mechanism.

The traditional formulation in philosophy is, KNOWLEDGE = JUSTIFIED TRUE BELIEF. With metaphysical belief systems like Christianity, it's the "TRUE" requirement that's the problem. As Christians, I believe, we have JUSTIFIED CONVICTIONS.

Feel free to convince me I'm wrong.

Jesus Christ is the Truth.


Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 14:6


Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the Truth.


His Gospel
His Doctrine
His Commandments


Christians follow Jesus, not “christianity”.


There are many organizations or denominations that claim one thing or another concerning what the scriptures says or what their “prophet” says.


At the end of the proverbial day, there will be only one small group of people that hear these words spoken to them on the Day of Judgement,…‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


That small group of people are those who obey Jesus Christ as their Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9








JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

umm... that's why I said what I said-

Got it! Good job!!

 

[stovebolts]

that stated goal of @stovebolts was a kinder, gentler, lets-all-just-get-along brand of Christianity

What I want is what Paul and John also wanted.
John 13:35 NIV
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

This site is global, and I want this site to reflect the goodness of God.

Alas, that doesn't exist outside of Vacation Bible School and probably not even there.

Then we've got some work to do, don't we? The way I see it, we are either doing the good work of God, or not. We can sit back and throw rocks at the things we don't like, or we can dig in and make a difference to restore that which is broken.

And the lowest common denominator of Christianity is closer to a mental illness than a faith. It's a faith - if it's that at all - based largely on fear.

While I do understand what you are stating, that is not my personal view. Perfect love drives out fear.... it's an action item, not just a discussion. But it does play out in how we discuss our differences.

Paul says that love is patient, and it is long suffering. These are both fruits of the spirit. However, disputes are from the flesh.

You will never move somebody out of fear by bulldogging them. It takes loving them and speaking to them in a language and terms they can fully understand. But that means you need to listen to them, understand them. Understand their fears and if you're longsuffering with patience, you very well may see fruit. In simple words, meet people where they are at and if they reject your message, then wipe the dust off your feet and move along or dig in and bear the load of longsuffering and patience and a heavy dose of forgiveness.

In summary, this site will be what you make of it. If you want contention, you will put yourself and others in a place of contention. We do not moderate by iron fist and we allow different views from everyone. Everyone should have a place at the table and everyone should abide by the site TOS which helps to regulate the "How" people talk to one another.

 

[stovebolts]

Glad to see you posting!

And for what it’s worth, I sense an honest effort from stovebolts to make some room for at least a little unorthodox discussion.

Thank you.

 

[donadams]

Our faith is revealed by God who can neither deceive or be deceived, and taught by Jesus Christ thru His one true church!
Jn 14:6

Truth is not something but somebody Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is Our salvation:

Truth / doctrine Jn 14:6
Sacrifice / sacraments Jn 1:16-17 Jn 1:29
Christ is in His person is our salvation Lk 2:30

 

[follower]

How do we determine if Christianity is true - or can we?

No, the world is unable to, and any deceiver is unable and/or unwilling to.

 

[follower]

That's not the subject of this thread. The issue isn't whether Christianity "completely satisfies" me. It's whether I am able to hold a conviction it's true.

I just read the op and a little bit more.
I saw the question whether it can be proved true,
not if someone is able to hold a conviction it's true.

 

[donadams]

No, the world is unable to, and any deceiver is unable and/or unwilling to.

God can neither deceive or be deceived and our holy religion the only source of true felicity is revealed by God!