Do we KNOW Christianity is true?

[hawkman]

Did you know that there are millions with particular beliefs about the rapture who are 100% convinced of their ideas yet they are 100% wrong? That statement is 100% true.

Or they are convinced about this or that, from the book of Revelation and they teach from their own point of view -as if it were true- and it’s completely wrong.

This is why I spend very little time in the End Time section of this forum . I know I am right but they won't believe me ! Just kidding .

Or pick a point of contention within theology— where ever there are opposing, or many perspectives that don’t agree, some folks may be right while the others must be wrong. That’s basic logic. But even those who must be wrong are often absolutely convinced they are right.

It’s because we are talking about beliefs. Beliefs about ideas. About concepts.

True .

Show me two people that say they are 100% convinced the Bible is 100% true. Which Bible? Okay- “that Bible” —but then it would take me only a few minutes to find something I could ask them about ‘from the Bible’ that they vehemently disagree about. Again, it’s their ideas about the subject that differ, their beliefs.

Have you got a copy of that 100% true bible? I would like one. But Is God's Word true ? Yes !
It is all in the translation as they say.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It will come as a shock to Dorothy Mae, but the vast majority of Christian leaders and scholars disagree with her. Google "Did Jesus doubt?" This is from an article in Christianity Today entitled "Jesus was the God-Man, Not the God-Superman," https://www.christianitytoday.com/c...-god-superman-doubt-temptation-holy-week.html:

What Jesus brought with him into our world was his godness, which included a deep trust and faith in his Father; part of what he received from us in his humanness was our ability to doubt—and doubt he did.​

​

Doubt is a real part of human experience. And Jesus was so committed to entering humanity that he dared to enter human doubt as well.​

It's interesting that my quote from Josh McDowell was rather pointedly ignored as well.

If Dorothy Mae ever decides to adopt a heraldic crest, I have a motto for her. (Just tweaking you, Dorothy Mae. My own would say "Often in doubt and proud of it.")

View attachment 14393​

Im sorry to hear that. They’re all
wrong. When a man is in doubt, he asks “why?” When a man doesn’t doubt but doesn’t want to
comply he asks, “must this be done?” I’m sorry to hear the majority are so unaware of the difference.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

-are you certain?

Absolutely but that’s pretty funny…I smiled.

 

[Mister E]

You really need to review the Terms of Service, and perhaps cut back on the caffeine.

I was going to say ‘Calm down’ but didn’t, knowing it could have no calming effect.

Folks who bring a pocket knife to a sword fight are often ignorant to the fact they are ill-equipped for the battle at hand.... until it’s too late.

I have a terrier like that. She is a replacement for a terrier I used to have.

 

[jerry63935]

Epistemology keeps rearing its head on threads on which I participate. This is the branch of philosophy dealing with knowledge - what knowledge is and what it means to claim we "know" something.

I keep being told I say things that don't sound very Christian. I keep responding, "This is a matter of epistemology." So here we are.

To claim we have knowledge, we must have some legitimate basis for the claim. A legitimate basis is called justification or warrant. (As we'll discuss, knowledge requires more than mere justification, but it does require that.)

Famed Christian epistemologist Alvin Plantinga says Christians can claim to have justification for their beliefs without any evidence whatsoever. He says we can claim to have justification on the basis of our internal sensus divinitatis (sense of the divine) and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit.

However, even Plantinga agrees this doesn't mean Christian belief is true, merely that it isn't irrational. "Justified" basically means "not irrational." It doesn't mean "true."

How do we determine if Christianity is true - or can we?

I believe there are threshold truth questions: Is naturalism true? If it is, there is no god. If it isn't, there may be a god of some sort. (Not all atheism is naturalistic - many atheists believe in life after death and some sort of spiritual realm.)

If we decide naturalism isn't true, which ism is then most likely to be true - non-naturalistic atheism, deism or theism? If we decide it's theism, which version of theism? (Christianity, of course, is a species of theism.)

These are all ultimate metaphysical questions. As a finite human being, I'm like a goldfish in a bowl trying to explain the reality outside the room in which the bowl is located. I can never really know to a 100% objective certainty whether naturalism is true or false, theism is true or false, or Christianity is true or false. I can only reach a level of conviction on these matters.

On each of these matters, I believe we reach a level of conviction through experience, observation, study, reflection and intuition. At some point, we reach a level of conviction naturalism is false, theism is true, and Christianity is true. We have a rational, well-justified, defensible conviction. The more diligent our quest, the more solid our convictions will be.

(Obviously, few people address these matters in a tidy order. It's usually more of a jumbled mess, but we do reach convictions on the critical questions.)

Christianity, of course, also includes the notion of revelation by God - in the Bible, in the person of Jesus, in the indwelling of the Spirit. However, I only believe and experience these things as revelations by God after I've reached a conviction Christianity is true. They may strongly reinforce my conviction to the point where I claim to "know" Christianity is true, but a Jew, Muslim or Hindu can make the same sorts of claims and so we're really still talking about a very strong conviction rather than knowledge.

This being the case, I never claim more for my Christian beliefs than I rationally can. I don't play the "pretend certainty" game, even though I've had a startling born-again experience, several other paranormal experiences, and several complex life events I can only attribute to the hand of God. Convincing as they were to me, they all might be explained in other ways - including defects in my own thinking and perceptions. (Significantly, even Plantinga admits his epistemology only works with properly functioning mental faculties.)

Honesty compels me to admit that, remote as the possibility may seem to me, naturalistic atheism, Buddhism or Hinduism might be true. Lots of very intelligent people who have engaged in diligent quests believe these things.

Honesty also compels me to admit my mainstream understanding of Christianity might be only 73% or 48% true.

I thus don't claim any more for my Christian beliefs than conviction. I try to live as though they were true while accepting they might not be. I examine and question them continually, both because it's enjoyable and because my goal is to get as close to metaphysical Truth as I can in this lifetime. I don't think there is anything irreligious or un-Christian about this.

So that's my notion of epistemology.

Many Christians, like other believers, were indoctrinated into their beliefs as children. Many Christians, like other believers, hold their beliefs mostly on the basis of cultural conditioning. Others went directly to Christianity as the result of a single mystical experience of some sort. Perhaps they simple heard the Gospel and had an "A-ha!" moment inspired by the Holy Spirit. Many of these folks have never examined or questioned their beliefs. This doesn't mean they "aren't real Christians" or are somehow "lesser Christians." Many do claim "knowledge" or "certainty" they don't really have - not in any epistemic sense anyway - because they're afraid to confront what they actually do believe and why. That's fine - when they question my Christianity, I realize it's mostly just a defense mechanism.

The traditional formulation in philosophy is, KNOWLEDGE = JUSTIFIED TRUE BELIEF. With metaphysical belief systems like Christianity, it's the "TRUE" requirement that's the problem. As Christians, I believe, we have JUSTIFIED CONVICTIONS.

Feel free to convince me I'm wrong.

not big with all the fancy words "

"How do we determine if Christianity is true - or can we?" how do we i have go by scripture the just (us born again ) 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”. to me we the saved accept it by faith 2..

Romans 8:16​

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

to the world /lost it is foolishness For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14​

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

the night i got saved /become a Christian i never had bells and whistles going off nor did i have a loud voice saying i am saved . in fact i was in total shock " gasp ekkk what did you just do ?" you took a preachers hand you didnt like walked to the altar . did not know what to say or do.. he prayed did he ever pray then asked me if i thought i would go to heaven or something of that nature. i said i m not sure .he said lets do this again i said God save me .... maybe this is not the answer your looking for . i am only a h.s graduate been in the ministry over 25 years .the only thing i know is read and study .i look words up i do internet research " dangerous " ? only if you buy everything you read hook line and sinker and i dont . that is my 2cents

 

[jerry63935]

I have the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives me 100% certainty, but that would not convince an unbeliever.

bingo

 

[jerry63935]

Indoctrinating a child into religious belief is a completely different matter. The parent is simply indoctrinating the child into the parent's own convictions.

is that not how we raised our kids? i know many that are generation Baptist /Pentecostal /Methodist great gma &gpa was gma gpa was mom dad was so am i ? i taught our son to get the truth for himself granted there are areas we but heads on... so much the rabbit chase

 

[jerry63935]

Epistemology is the subject of the thread.

curious as to where that word is found in the Bible ? if not careful we can term salvation completely out of the picture .just use philosophy .

 

[jerry63935]

Yeah, when I signed off yesterday, there were no responses and I thought "Well, that was a dud." Your analysis is pretty much right on.

replies come in spurts if you do a post on the Grace of God they seldom reply its boring . but make a post that be controversial. it will last amny pages hide and watch

 

[jerry63935]

taking a break the more i read the more i feel to put on boots

 

[Mister E]

curious as to where that word is found in the Bible ? if not careful we can term salvation completely out of the picture .just use philosophy .

It’s in first Hesitations.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You really need to review the Terms of Service, and perhaps cut back on the caffeine.

There is no " term of service " barring an obvious question completely within the margins of the epistemological foundation you have claimed for yourself as it applies to Christianity .
All things work together for good, even a simple answer which I would have to believe contained profound spiritual inspiration.
I don't see how such a dichotomy could be put in orderly harmony without it
Your moment to shine in summarization


What could possibly be the stated motivation for choosing a faith so clearly in conflict with the high epistemological ideals that runner has belabored when such an abundance of other faiths proffering the world's most admired spiritual attributes yet containing nowhere near the fantastical unprovable, superstitious baggage of Christianity are readily available.
The rationalization for a choice so contrary to the rock solid epistemological foundation presented would certainly be a privilege to hear ?
This is your spiritual experience , we cannot know without your testimony .

" To be spiritually minded is life and peace " ( Romans 8:6 )

 

[for_his_glory]

This whole thread saddens me that after five pages of debating about big words that I have to look up in order to even try to understand, just what is the whole purpose of this thread. Are we arguing for true faith or against faith just by how these philosophers through their points of views cloud the minds on the unlearned.

Does any Christian that is indwelled with the Holy Spirit need to even question if Christianity is true or false. If they have to question this then I would say they have no personal relationship with Christ nor have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If I was a new member and either a very young Christian or a non-Christian trying to seek answers about what salvation is all about and read all these posting I would be more confused and probably led to not even wanting to consider being a Christian.

There is no edifying or anything that is uplifting in this thread, but only not so sound arguments seemingly because of what some philosophers have written. IMO this thread is nothing more than Satan unaware wanting to plant doubt in the minds of those who only question their own faith. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Do any of us have to question that!!!

1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I was going to say ‘Calm down’ but didn’t, knowing it could have no calming effect.

Folks who bring a pocket knife to a sword fight are often ignorant to the fact they are ill-equipped for the battle at hand.... until it’s too late.

I have a terrier like that. She is a replacement for a terrier I used to have.

You’re pretty funny. Enjoyable reading!!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This whole thread saddens me that after five pages of debating about big words that I have to look up in order to even try to understand, just what is the whole purpose of this thread. Are we arguing for true faith or against faith just by how these philosophers through their points of views cloud the minds on the unlearned.

Does any Christian that is indwelled with the Holy Spirit need to even question if Christianity is true or false. If they have to question this then I would say they have no personal relationship with Christ nor have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If I was a new member and either a very young Christian or a non-Christian trying to seek answers about what salvation is all about and read all these posting I would be more confused and probably led to not even wanting to consider being a Christian.

There is no edifying or anything that is uplifting in this thread, but only not so sound arguments seemingly because of what some philosophers have written. IMO this thread is nothing more than Satan unaware wanting to plant doubt in the minds of those who only question their own faith. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Do any of us have to question that!!!

1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

An original answer explained this is a field called Epistemology and while it doesn’t interest some, it is vital to others. There are intellectuals in the world who very much enjoy thinking about what they believe and why. It shouldn’t make you sad because most of the New Testament, arguably all, was written by intellectuals.

I repeat, the New Testament, if not the whole of the Bible, was written by men who spent a great deal of their time thinking about what they understood and with time knew to be true.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Quoting myself, the ultimate form of flattery! Will I get an alert that Runner just quoted me?

I want to clarify that I regard this fear as perfectly understandable, not pathological. We live in times that are almost disorienting for a Christian. Traditional values and morals are under attack like never before. Ridicule of mainstream Christian beliefs is becoming the norm. Actual persecution is on the rise. It certainly appears supernatural evil has been unleashed to an unprecedented degree and 2 Timothy 3:1-5 is unfolding around us.

In these circumstances, it's understandable many Christians want CERTAINTY. We'll wrap ourselves in our literalist Christianity like some sort of protective cocoon and pretend what's happening isn't happening - even though Jesus said it would happen. I'm sometimes prone to this myself. I can see the appeal. But it's very shallow and artificial. When the issue is epistemology - as it's supposed to be here - an honest Christian doesn't hide from competing views or pretend he has certainty he doesn't and can't.

I can see that this is certainly possible but that’s not the sole experience of the christian mind. Let’s try a non-religious example. I listen to Jordan Peterson and after decades as a psychological therapist, he’s absolutely convinced that we get away with no wrong choices. He’s more that persuaded. He is adamant. This is from decades of evidence. Why isn’t it possible for a Christian being equally convinced about parts of their faith after decades of testing it and seeing the evidence?

That is exactly what I’m saying. I’m older than a lot of you and I’ve seen decades of evidence of the claims/teaching of Christ to be true. King David wrote, “I was young and now and old but I’ve never seen those who do right forsaken by God nor his seed begging bread.”

I'll agree to a degree. A strong conviction and certainty might well "look" the same in practice. But epistemically - which is what this thread is about, even if most participants don't realize it - there is a very fundamental, foundational difference.

When what we believe is tested is real life choices, it becomes epistemologically the same because that word means that you know what you think is true in the world outside your head.

Do you folks realize that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus have their own miracles that correspond to everything in Christianity? Prophetic visions, miraculous healings, full-blown mystical experiences, answered prayers, all of it. Are you aware of the large body of evidence that supports reincarnation - a belief more widespread and ancient than anything in Christianity? Do you have any familiarity with the depth and profundity of the Buddhist and Hindu scriptures, many of which I've found informative for my own Christianity?

That’s not the evidence I mean. Ever been to countries where those faiths are in the majority? You’ll never again be tempted to think all religions are alike.

I'm not promoting any of this. I am saying it's absurd to claim we have "evidence" and the other religious traditions don't. Their evidence is all what - demonic deception? (YES!!!) It's entirely understandable that someone raised in a Hindu family in a Hindu nation, steeped in Hindu culture and tradition, and acquainted with the history of Hindu miracles and mysticism is convinced he "knows" the truth of Hinduism. Much Christianity, of course, is similarly a product of rearing, culture and tradition.

I doubt any of them are convinced. What they believe doesn’t match real life.

An honest individual doesn't hide from any of this. He confronts it and decides where the truth is most likely to be found. He reaches conviction, not certainty.

The people in the NT and later were so certain that they had the truth, they were willing to die rather than admit there might be doubt. No one dies a horrible, painful death if one can avoid it by embracing doubt. For those who are convinced, abandoning the truth is even more horrible to contemplate.

As I’ve said all along, if a man has to make a costly choice to either do what his God is telling him to do solely on faith, that faith becomes convinced and certain afterwards. Faith, genuine faith, is never merely an intellectual exercise.

 

[Cooper]

This whole thread saddens me that after five pages of debating about big words that I have to look up in order to even try to understand, just what is the whole purpose of this thread. Are we arguing for true faith or against faith just by how these philosophers through their points of views cloud the minds on the unlearned.

Does any Christian that is indwelled with the Holy Spirit need to even question if Christianity is true or false. If they have to question this then I would say they have no personal relationship with Christ nor have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If I was a new member and either a very young Christian or a non-Christian trying to seek answers about what salvation is all about and read all these posting I would be more confused and probably led to not even wanting to consider being a Christian.

There is no edifying or anything that is uplifting in this thread, but only not so sound arguments seemingly because of what some philosophers have written. IMO this thread is nothing more than Satan unaware wanting to plant doubt in the minds of those who only question their own faith. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Do any of us have to question that!!!

1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It breaks my heart. (sad).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It breaks my heart. (sad).

Are you sad because we discuss how we know we know the truth at all or sad because so many think Christians can never be free of doubt?

 

[Cooper]

Are you sad because we discuss how we know we know the truth at all or sad because so many think Christians can never be free of doubt?

I am sad to see Christianity taking second place to the philosophy of man.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am sad to see Christianity taking second place to the philosophy of man.

I probably missed those posts. But you’re right, it can be more foundational that the way Jesus viewed the world.

It’s very difficult to be different than the world since the educational system is run by the world.