Do we receive the Holy Ghost upon baptism?

[Benoni]

No I do not look at the ritual of water baptism having to do with salvation in any sense. The scripture says a lot of things and one thing I avoid is when people take something from God’s Word and make it a ritual, be it prayer at a meal of smoke coming from a pot.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

 

[dadof10]

No I do not look at the ritual of water baptism having to do with salvation in any sense. The scripture says a lot of things and one thing I avoid is when people take something from God’s Word and make it a ritual, be it prayer at a meal of smoke coming from a pot.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

Then what does "baptism, which now saves you..." mean to you?

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus blood saves not the ritual of baptism

Take a gander at Romans 6:1-5 before you make such statements.

Baptism IS THE MEANS by which the blood of Christ is applied to us...

Regards

 

[Benoni]

Sorry you Catholic are far too off the deep end in ritualism for me.

You might even convince me in small area but overall no thanks.

I do not even consider my self a protestant because they are far too ritualistic.

Jesus blood saves not the ritual of baptism

Take a gander at Romans 6:1-5 before you make such statements.

Baptism IS THE MEANS by which the blood of Christ is applied to us...

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Sorry you Catholic are far too off the deep end in ritualism for me.

You might even convince me in small area but overall no thanks.

I do not even consider my self a protestant because they are far too ritualistic.

Are you going to give a reason and interpret the verse, or simply bury your head in the sand because of what other people have told you?

 

[Elijah674]

Do we receive the Holy Ghost upon baptism? Is this video evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[youtube:1pvk2q7m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiZ2OLlo0g[/youtube:1pvk2q7m]

Elijah here: I did not watch the video. But only God can know who has received the Holy Ghost. First.. He is given on condition as seen in Acts 5:32

I suspect that the POSITIVES of Heb. 6:1-5 finds the individual knowing as well at the required Birth starting point.

A good verse for the rebirth comes from Matt. 26:75's exsperience of Peter after he was converted. As Christ had His prayer for him answered! Take note that Christ states 'After thou art converted..'

And then Saul in Acts 9 surely had an about face, huh? Note verse 6 what Christ told him that [HE MUST DO]. After total full surrender, Christ sent him to the church that He had started up before He went back to heaven! Matt. 18:17-18 is seen to bind one (him) in the heavenly Zion RECORD BOOKS.

 

[Benoni]

I am going to bury my head in the sand because when I look at what God's Word is saying over all this is nothing but baic principles that is not at all very relavant in the over all picture of what God's Word is declaring. This is milk not meat.

Colossians2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Main Entry: ru•di•ment
Pronunciation: 'rü-d&-m&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin rudimentum beginning, from rudis raw, rude
1 : a basic principle or element or a fundamental skill -- usually used in plural <teaching themselves the rudiments of rational government -- G. B. Galanti>
2 a : something unformed or undeveloped : BEGINNING -- usually used in plural <the rudiments of a plan> b (1) : a body part so deficient in size or structure as to be entirely unable to perform its normal function (2) : an organ just beginning to develop : ANLAGE

Sorry you Catholic are far too off the deep end in ritualism for me.

You might even convince me in small area but overall no thanks.

I do not even consider my self a protestant because they are far too ritualistic.

Are you going to give a reason and interpret the verse, or simply bury your head in the sand because of what other people have told you?

 

[Elijah674]

I am going to bury my head in the sand because when I look at what God's Word is saying over all this is nothing but baic principles that is not at all very relavant in the over all picture of what God's Word is declaring. This is milk not meat.

Colossians2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

...


Milk? No offence meant, but with that mug shot of yours, are you telling us that you believe that we all decended from apes??

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

Jesus blood saves not the ritual of baptism; baptism is symbolic.

I think that people need to be open to the possibility that they are thinking of baptism the wrong way. I wonder whether people are bringing an unexamined assumption into this debate. And that is the assumption that baptism is a purely symbollic act.

But if you are open to the possiblity that God is at work in baptism, then the issues are different. Baptism, I suggest, is an event where God acts, independent of what we understand.

Remember the "history" of baptism in the redemption story. Baptism, rather obviously, is a re-enactment of the Red Sea crossing - the Israelites pass from slavery to freedom through the waters of the Red Sea, foreshadowing the same transition in baptism.

This is God "in action". Now for reasons that I will get into in a later post, I suggest that the New Testament writers do not merely see baptism as only a symbolic re-enactment of the Red Sea crossing - they see it as actually bringing about the "new exodus".

 

[Drew]

Here is an argument as to why Paul cannot see baptism (here in Romans) 6 as an event that recalls, attests to, remembers, or merely symbolizes something else - that is, a past experience of dying and rising again with Jesus:

3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Consider the two possibilities:

1. Paul here is talking literally - that being dunked into the water is the means by which the "old man" is put to death. This is the view that I think is the correct view.

2. Paul here uses the act of baptism as a symbol - as a way to refer to the event of our "old man" being put to death through means other than being dunked in water.

In advance of examing the Romans 6 text, each of these options is indeed possible.

Now let's consider position in light of the text. Position 1 survives because Paul says "4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death . With the assumption that baptism is an event that brings about death, we have Paul basically saying the same thing in different words.

I want to be clear - just becaues "my" view works with the text doesn't make it correct. I need to show that position 2 cannot work with the text.

And, indeed, it cannot.

Let's say that Paul uses baptism symbolically here. Let's say that Paul understands that the submersion aspect of the act of baptism to symbolize the death of the "old man". This makes perfect sense to this point. It is easy to see how dunking a person into water can be understood to symbolize death. Fine.

So what would we have Paul then saying when he says "4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death . We have him saying that the symbolic act brings about the real death that the symbolic act signifies. And I trust I do not need to explain what is wrong with that.

You see, if baptism is really a symbol of a death, then we have Paul saying: "4We were therefore buried with him through the symbol re-enactment of our death into the actual death of the inner Adamic man". This cannot work - the symbolic model commits us to seeing our "Adamic man" as already actually dead. So how can we die a second time?

Position 1, of course, works perfectly well. It sees baptism as a practice that brings about death - so there is not this problem of "double death" that arises with position 2.

 

[Benoni]

I agree, notice it was a sea or water in baptism. Water speaks of God's Word; in other words a baptism in His spiritual Word. Thought it might be a bit deep for my Catholic Brothers. Jesus when baptized received a dove for He is perfect. On the day of Pentecost believer received cloven tongues of fire. Why because fire purifies; we are far from perfect.

Jesus blood saves not the ritual of baptism; baptism is symbolic.

I think that people need to be open to the possibility that they are thinking of baptism the wrong way. I wonder whether people are bringing an unexamined assumption into this debate. And that is the assumption that baptism is a purely symbollic act.

But if you are open to the possiblity that God is at work in baptism, then the issues are different. Baptism, I suggest, is an event where God acts, independent of what we understand.

Remember the "history" of baptism in the redemption story. Baptism, rather obviously, is a re-enactment of the Red Sea crossing - the Israelites pass from slavery to freedom through the waters of the Red Sea, foreshadowing the same transition in baptism.

This is God "in action". Now for reasons that I will get into in a later post, I suggest that the New Testament writers do not merely see baptism as only a symbolic re-enactment of the Red Sea crossing - they see it as actually bringing about the "new exodus".

 

[dadof10]

I am going to bury my head in the sand

I've got to hand it to you, at least you've got integrity.

because when I look at what God's Word is saying over all this is nothing but baic principles that is not at all very relavant in the over all picture of what God's Word is declaring.

God's word specifically says "baptism, which NOW SAVES YOU..." This is concerning salvation and IS relevant.

This is milk not meat.

Verses that deal with salvation are "milk"??? Is "believe in (on) the Lord Jesus Christ an thou shalt be saved" milk also? What about "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."? This one refers to salvation, is it "milk" in your opinion? If these are "milk", what do you consider "meat"?

Colossians2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Are doctrines specifically spelled out in Scripture what you consider "traditions of men"? Where do you find you misguided view that "baptism is symbolic" within Scripture? Chapter and verse, please.

 

[dadof10]

I think that people need to be open to the possibility that they are thinking of baptism the wrong way. I wonder whether people are bringing an unexamined assumption into this debate. And that is the assumption that baptism is a purely symbollic act.

Not only an "unexamined assumption", but an UNSCRIPTURAL unexamined assumption.

But if you are open to the possiblity that God is at work in baptism, then the issues are different. Baptism, I suggest, is an event where God acts, independent of what we understand.

I agree, if you mean that we can never fully understand the marriage of Grace and free-will within the Sacrament. I think the doctrine of "washing of regeneration" is pretty straightforward. God is definitely acting through th Sacrament.

Remember the "history" of baptism in the redemption story. Baptism, rather obviously, is a re-enactment of the Red Sea crossing - the Israelites pass from slavery to freedom through the waters of the Red Sea, foreshadowing the same transition in baptism.

I think it's more accurate to compare baptism with the Flood, as Peter does, although there are aspects that parallel the Crossing.

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. (1Peter (RSV) 3)

This is God "in action".

Now for reasons that I will get into in a later post, I suggest that the New Testament writers do not merely see baptism as only a symbolic re-enactment of the Red Sea crossing - they see it as actually bringing about the "new exodus".

Exactly, hence the old man becomes a new creation, death and rebirth through baptism.

 

[shad]

Some do, some do not.

I agree but I dont know what you mean though. Do you mean if you speak in tongues that that is the evidence? If that is what you mean, we are not on the same page.

What I believe is that if we truly make a commitment to Jesus by giving our lives to Him from the bottom of our hearts, then the Holy Spirit lives with us.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Do we receive the Holy Ghost upon baptism? Is this video evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[youtube:w3tphbor]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiZ2OLlo0g[/youtube:w3tphbor]

Why do you get baptized???? Because you believe in Christ......Wouldnt that mean that the spirit has already touched?????Therefor one would hope to have recieved the Holy SPIRIT before baptism even....

 

[shad]

Do we receive the Holy Ghost upon baptism? Is this video evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[youtube:3dthon1s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiZ2OLlo0g[/youtube:3dthon1s]

Why do you get baptized???? Because you believe in Christ......Wouldnt that mean that the spirit has already touched?????Therefor one would hope to have recieved the Holy SPIRIT before baptism even....

I sort of agree with you but Jesus seems to take actual baptism very important; He told Philip to baptize the eunuch.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Do we receive the Holy Ghost upon baptism? Is this video evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[youtube:2trmizw4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiZ2OLlo0g[/youtube:2trmizw4]

Why do you get baptized???? Because you believe in Christ......Wouldnt that mean that the spirit has already touched?????Therefor one would hope to have recieved the Holy SPIRIT before baptism even....

I sort of agree with you but Jesus seems to take actual baptism very important; He told Philip to baptize the eunuch.

Indeed it is important,,,,for Christ himself was baptized......./Many times people will only have time to repent,,,,take the thief on the cross,,,its a goood chance he wasnt baptized ,,,,but he made it to paradise......But you get my drift.......I have a feeling many people meet God on there death bed...

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Do we receive the Holy Ghost upon baptism? Is this video evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

[youtube:2e86hz3x]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MiZ2OLlo0g[/youtube:2e86hz3x]

Why do you get baptized???? Because you believe in Christ......Wouldnt that mean that the spirit has already touched?????Therefor one would hope to have recieved the Holy SPIRIT before baptism even....

I sort of agree with you but Jesus seems to take actual baptism very important; He told Philip to baptize the eunuch.

Indeed it is important,,,,for Christ himself was baptized......./Many times people will only have time to repent,,,,take the thief on the cross,,,its a goood chance he wasnt baptized ,,,,but he made it to paradise......But you get my drift.......I have a feeling many people meet God on there death bed...

 

[shad]

.......I have a feeling many people meet God on there death bed...

Yes, Jesus says "Narrow is the road that leas to life and only a few find it." We should pray and strive to be biblical in our words and practices. Jesus will not accept lip servers.

.

 

[Benoni]

The whole Catholic religion is based on tradition . You would not like to hear what I say about John 3:16. Besides that is another subject. Start a new thread.

I am going to bury my head in the sand

I've got to hand it to you, at least you've got integrity.

because when I look at what God's Word is saying over all this is nothing but baic principles that is not at all very relavant in the over all picture of what God's Word is declaring.

God's word specifically says "baptism, which NOW SAVES YOU..." This is concerning salvation and IS relevant.

[quote:29bxcf8h]This is milk not meat.

Verses that deal with salvation are "milk"??? Is "believe in (on) the Lord Jesus Christ an thou shalt be saved" milk also? What about "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."? This one refers to salvation, is it "milk" in your opinion? If these are "milk", what do you consider "meat"?

Colossians2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Are doctrines specifically spelled out in Scripture what you consider "traditions of men"? Where do you find you misguided view that "baptism is symbolic" within Scripture? Chapter and verse, please.[/quote:29bxcf8h]