Do we receive whatever things we ask in prayer, believing?

[Brother Mike]

Hi Obadiah. It was suggested earlier that the Matthew 21:22 verse should be taken in context with other places where Jesus says much the same thing, but adds, "in my name" or "according to my father's will", (luke 11:9, John 14:13, Mark 11:24 and 1 John 5:14).

The Matthew verse seems to be the only example where the caveat "in thy name" or "according to thy will" is not included.

Well, lets look at this in context then, shall we? There is no prayer we pray that if it be in our fathers will. None, zero.......... So we can scratch that type of prayer off the list.
It's better to pray......... Lord I need wisdom, which direction do I go?

This is the type of prayer Jesus was praying:
Now if the Lord wants you to go to Iraq, and you don't want to go, then you can say. "Lord, My will is not to go, and if you have another plan that is just as good, I am all ears, However, I will do as your will told me to do."

Money?
Even God pays us back, not out of grace, but debt for what He owes us. How much more should we not expect to get paid for working a Job?

He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
(Pro 19:17)
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(Rom 4:4)
1Co_3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
(Rom 12:19)

The Lord not only pays back to us what we do for him out of debt, but pays us when someone else takes from us and harms us. The Lord is not hung up at all with the concept of going for a Job that pays money. He invented the concept.

There is something much more valuable to the Lord than Money though, and He will give us money, lots of it if we use this resource wisely in small things, as more money will save on this valuable asset. You know what this asset is?

Mike

 

[john darling]

A response to me.

We should not be a burden on others, either.

A response to Bro Mike.

So the people who have helped your family have been blessed.

When I talk about Christians helping one another, you say we should not be a burden on one another. When BrotherMike talks about people helping him, you call it a blessing not only for Mike, but for those who do the helping. Why would your reasoning change like that?

We should be the ones helping those who cannot work to provide for themselves or their families. That is what I see in scripture.

I somewhat agree, though I think the part, "those who cannot work" narrows the field a little too much. How about "we should be helping". That way anyone can be included; those who cannot help themselves but also those who can help themselves but just need a bit of extra help from time to time. The early Christians did this by living communally. It says they forsook all their private ownership, shared all things in common, and every person was provided for according to their need (Acts 2:44-45 and Acts 4:32-37).

Please address the 1 Tim. scripture.
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

This is very much like the, "those who do not work should not eat" teaching from Paul (2 Thessalonians 3:10). However, because most people have been tricked into thinking they cannot live without money, they automatically mentally translate any mention of "work" as "work for money" or "provide" as "provide with money".

But rather than being admonitions to give our time to mammon, these teachings are about laziness in the commune. Remember that Christian community is the context in which these letters were written (Col 4:15, Rom 16:5, 1 Cor 16:9, Philemon 1:2). If anyone does not work (in the community) they should not eat (in the community). It's a teaching against laziness in a situation where someone could easily come into the community and expect everyone else to take care of them. It's the same with the admonition for each man (or woman) take care for their own children or immediate family members rather than presuming the burden on to other community members simply because they are part of the community.

Then address, not Paul making tents, but Priscilla and Aquila making tents. Do you believe that this was their occupation, their job, that they worked at in order to make a living?

I see no reason to doubt the account in Acts which describes these two as tent makers. But what has that got to do with your faith? Are you suggesting that if a convincing case can be made for following the example of someone in the Bible, which example conforms to what you also personally believe, then you will follow that example even if it is inconsistent with what Jesus said simply by virtue that the example can be found in the Bible?

Anyway, mention of Aquila and Priscilla is found 5 times in the NT. Only one of those times mentions tent making, and in that case Paul quite clearly dismisses his tent-making stint as a mistake (which I covered extensively in post #61 and 69). The other 4 references to AandP say nothing about tent making, but rather, describe them as traveling with Paul (Acts 18:6), preaching the gospel (Acts 18:26), and being greeted as fellow members of Christian community (Rom 16:3 and 1 Cor 16:19), which is a very different context to what we see when Paul was living with them as worldly business operators.

In other words, along with Paul leaving the tent making business (when Silas and Timothy's arrival "pressed his conscience") it seems AandP followed along with him, leaving behind the tent-making business instead for community life and preaching the gospel.

 

[Deborah13]

When I talk about Christians helping one another, you say we should not be a burden on one another. When BrotherMike talks about people helping him, you call it a blessing not only for Mike, but for those who do the helping. Why would your reasoning change like that?

My reasoning in cases like Brother Mike 's and others like his, is that he is trying to find work to support his family, not choosing to be a burden on others.

That way anyone can be included; those who cannot help themselves but also those who can help themselves but just need a bit of extra help from time to time.

I agree with this as well.

it seems AandP followed along with him, leaving behind the tent-making business instead for community life and preaching the gospel.

I don't know what P and A did for sure. My point is that it is not Godly or dishonoring to the Lord to work at an occupation to care for you and your family. Not all are evangelists, preachers, etc. who are supported by a ministry, and especially not women.
Do you live in a Christian commune?

 

[john darling]

There is no prayer we pray that if it be in our fathers will. None, zero.......... So we can scratch that type of prayer off the list.

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Can you give an example of the kind of prayer you think should be scratched off the list?

Money?
Even God pays us back, not out of grace, but debt for what He owes us. How much more should we not expect to get paid for working a Job?

When people talk about what God owes them and God's debt to them, and then combine that with the concept of God owing them lots of money as the repayment of his debt to them, I know it's not really God they are interested in. As episicle suggested, the love of money is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus talked about the decietfulness of riches (Matthew 13:22) and said the kingdom of Heaven belongs to the poor (Luke 6:20).

And yet, when you read verses about God rewarding those who help the poor, you only seem to see an opportunity to demand wealth from God (i.e. a debt or obligation inwhich he owes you material riches).

You give this verse as an example...

He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
(Pro 19:17)

But compare this verse to what Jesus said about helping the poor and treasure.

MT 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

MT 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

MT 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

and

LK 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

LK 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

We get treasure in Heaven, the only kind Jesus advised us to strive for, by giving our worldly wealth away. You have seriously misunderstood Jesus' message by preaching the prosperity doctrine. All the other verses you quoted you've mistaken in a similar way.

 

[john darling]

I don't know what P and A did for sure.

But you have some idea. What did you think of the verses I posted about their lives after the reference to tent-making and the interpretation I gave as to the most likely conclusion which those verses were suggesting?

Not all are evangelists, preachers, etc. who are supported by a ministry, and especially not women.

I don't know what you mean by "especially not women" but if you want to be a Christian then you certainly are called on to be an evangelist or pastor or part of the Christian commune in some way, even if your ministry is teaching your kids to follow Jesus.

I wonder if you can see yet, Deborah, that all these various issues you bring up are not the arguments you expect them to be. Whether it's Paul, Aquila and prisilla making tents, or the rich young ruler, or how we're not all supposed to participate in the same way, or how we're supposed to provide for our families or whatever other reasons you may come up with, they all have one thing in common...working for money instead of working for God, just like Jesus described it in Matthew 6:24

Until we are ready to lay aside all these fears and concerns we will ever miss the real power of the gospel Jesus taught. Coincidentally my friends and I had a Bible study on Hebrews 3 yesterday morning which included this verse,

HEB 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

HEB 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

This is the same fear Jesus mentioned in Matthew 6:30. Food. Clothing. Basic necessities. We'd die without them, and so we spend our lives working for money because of that fear. It was facing that fear and overcoming it which gave the early Christians the courage to knowingly and willingly face death. As a result of that courage the gospel spread over the world.

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't quite understand what you mean here. Can you give an example of the kind of prayer you think should be scratched off the list?



When people talk about what God owes them and God's debt to them, and then combine that with the concept of God owing them lots of money as the repayment of his debt to them, I know it's not really God they are interested in. As episicle suggested, the love of money is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus talked about the decietfulness of riches (Matthew 13:22) and said the kingdom of Heaven belongs to the poor (Luke 6:20).

And yet, when you read verses about God rewarding those who help the poor, you only seem to see an opportunity to demand wealth from God (i.e. a debt or obligation inwhich he owes you material riches).

You give this verse as an example...



But compare this verse to what Jesus said about helping the poor and treasure.

MT 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

MT 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

MT 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

and

LK 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

LK 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

We get treasure in Heaven, the only kind Jesus advised us to strive for, by giving our worldly wealth away. You have seriously misunderstood Jesus' message by preaching the prosperity doctrine. All the other verses you quoted you've mistaken in a similar way.

[Presumptive. ToS 2.4 WIP]

Why give to the poor? They need it. What if I only have enough for myself? No problem, God will repay me back.

God owes what we do for him, so then it's money on Loan to God which is what? What did Jesus call it? You gave me the scripture for it.

Now, Money owed by God out of debt, is not going to make us wealthy. He always add's extra to it, but it's not of grace, but debt.
[Condescending remark. Tos 2.4 WIP]

When we put God first and supply the gospel, that gets multiplied greatly. 100 fold possibly now in this time, and Jesus was trying to get that return to the rich young ruler. When we put God first, that goes into a treasury in Heaven. We don't have the money anymore, but that does not mean the money is not there. We call that money back by faith when we have a need, it's laid up for us.

For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
(Php 4:16-17)

Paul received, not to have, but He wanted something in their account. God keeps track of everything we give, and with the heart we give it. It's better to give what you have to God, so that it's kept safe, and not keep it laying around.

Prayer:
I gave an example of be thy will, if you did not get it, then I need to ask God for a better way to explain it to you. Read again what I posted on this.

 

[Deborah13]

working for money instead of working for God, just like Jesus described it in Matthew 6:24

Mat 6:26 look to the fowls of the heaven, for they do not sow, nor reap, nor gather into storehouses, and your heavenly Father doth nourish them; are not ye much better than they?
Do the little birds sit in the tree and wait for someone to bring the seed of the earth to them or do the search the ground and fly from place to place going to where the Lord has provided for them? Do they wait for the someone to build their nest where they raise their young, or do they fly from place to place gathering the sticks, mud, and grass that the Lord has provided for them to build their nest with?
Does the fox lay in it's den waiting for someone else to bring their food to them or do they hunt for the food that the Lord has provided for them? Does the Lord dig the hole for the badger or does he dig his hole in the earth the Lord has provided for him?

Now let's look at mammon scriptures in context...
Mat 6:23 but if thine eye may be evil, all thy body shall be dark; if, therefore, the light that is in thee is darkness--the darkness, how great!
Mat 6:24 `None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and Mammon.

Luk 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
G3126
mam-mo-nas'
Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified): - mammon.
G5365
fil-ar-goo-ree'-ah
From G5366; avarice: - love of money.
G5366
fil-ar'-goo-ros
From G5384 and G696; fond of silver (money), that is, avaricious: - covetous.
Avarice -
: excessive or insatiable desire for wealth or gain : greediness, cupidity
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avarice

If you don't understand these scriptures the way I do, that is fine. You should do what the Spirit shows you and puts on your conscience.

 

[Obadiah]

...then you say if it didn't involve pay God would have arranged for a job in which you would be working for money...

No, you are misquoting me. Don't do that again please. I never said I tried to limit God like that, and I didn't limit Him.

As for the rest of this, I would like to respond because I can see you are not understanding what I've said, but I actually violated my own personal policy of not posting in threads where I am the assigned moderator and I can see I shouldn't have done that. So I will not be responding to this thread with my opinions or ideas on the subject anymore. It's really too easy for it to appear unfair to other members when I do that.

 

[john darling]

No, you are misquoting me. Don't do that again please. I never said I tried to limit God like that, and I didn't limit Him.

Hi Obadiah. I've gone back through what we both said and I think I see what you mean.

You said:
Had it not paid money, God would have provided for me by some other means.

I quoted you as saying:
but then you say if it didn't involve pay God would have arranged for a job in which you would be working for money.

You said, "by some other means" whereas I quoted it as "working for money". I had the impression you meant a wage-paying job other than the one you prayed for as the "some other means" but it was an assumption on my part. You could have meant something other than a wage-paying job. Is this the misquote you are referring to? If so, I'm sorry for that. If it's not the misquote you are referring to let me know and I'll try again to see it from your perspective.

 

[john darling]

Do the little birds sit in the tree and wait for someone to bring the seed of the earth to them or do the search the ground and fly from place to place going to where the Lord has provided for them? Do they wait for the someone to build their nest where they raise their young, or do they fly from place to place gathering the sticks, mud, and grass that the Lord has provided for them to build their nest with?
Does the fox lay in it's den waiting for someone else to bring their food to them or do they hunt for the food that the Lord has provided for them? Does the Lord dig the hole for the badger or does he dig his hole in the earth the Lord has provided for him?

Hi Deborah. I think you are misunderstanding my intention. I'm not suggesting that we should not work. Far from it. I'm saying, along with Jesus, that our work should be done for a different motivation other than monetary gain.

The birds and foxes also don't charge God any fee for performing their role in creation. They just do what God tells them to. But it's interesting that while you talk of building nests and dens, Jesus talks of human jobs like sowing and reaping. Was Jesus confused? Did he really think birds capable of planting and harvesting crops?

Nah, he knew what he was talking about. Although he referred to birds, his intention, the lesson, was for us humans. Look at the birds; they don't worry about where there food will come from. They just do what God tells them to and God takes care of them.

He made a direct comparrison between seeking even the most basic necessities like food and clothing and seeking the Kingdom of Heaven. He made a direct comparrison between working for God and working for mammon (money and the things money can buy).

Now, if the love of money really is the root of all evil and if the heart really is deceitful above all things, then any issues regarding money or materialism needs to be very carefully examined on a personal level. Our proclivity to react in fear and greed is a serious problem and yet what I see is a lot of explanations for why working for the worldly system is not only just the normal standard but that God himself organizes his followers to go to these jobs, and not only that, but he blesses people with opportunities to get even more mammon than what they would have previously been satisfied with!

 

[john darling]

Oops, I forgot to include the Bible ref for my post. Matthew 6:26

 

[iLOVE]

Heaven is dimensional. You take one step and you are in it.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:3-4
Where are our blessings? In Heavenly places. With who? Christ. So are you already blessed? Yes! When did you get bless? Before the foundation of the world.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, Isaiah 57:15
So where is God? In eternity. Where is eternity...above or below? Above! Is there any time above it? No. Is there any time below it? Yes. If you are going to work by faith are you going to work in time? No! Remember: If you ever work in time you are not living by faith! Your faith must work in eternity. This is why you must call those things that be not as though they where. Why? Because they already are. Romans 4:17

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1 Peter 1:3-4
Notice: We have something reserve for us in heaven. And it is not reserve for us to get their and get it (which are called rewards), our inheritance is to be used here now. Why? Because God want us to finish our assignment strong!

Satan want us to stay in time. If you stay in time you are not in faith. There are no miracles in time. So you must come to eternity and call things that be not as though they were. Your faith is the only thing that that can reach into eternity. Matthew 11:12

Truth is always above facts! The written word of God has given us scriptures to use to reach into eternity to get our blessings. The scripture says that the word of God is truth and alive. It is a spirit that gives life. Faith takes truth and superimposes it over fact. The word of God comes from the invisible realm and replaces the physical that is in this realm. The word will regulate everything and faith can fix anything!. Matthew 4:4 - Proverbs 4:20-22

The difference between religion and Christianity is this: are you receiving your inheritance? 2 Timothy 3:5 - Matthew 7:14 NIV

 

[jmt356]

I will reply in two separate posts. My first post will set out my own initial thoughts. My separate post will reply to several of the other posts that were published on this thread.
1 Initial Thoughts
I would like to refocus this thread on the original question: Do we receive whatever things we ask in prayer, believing? Matthew 21:22 states yes, but empirical evidence often suggests otherwise. Perhaps the discussion regarding whether it is appropriate to work for money can be moved to a new thread.
On the one hand, I want to trust Jesus’s words in Mark 11:24 (“whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them”) by, for example, making preparation in faith, as though the petitions I have presented to Jesus have already been granted. However, my experience demonstrates that sometimes the answer to my prayer is “no.”
So do I step out in faith, believing the answer will be “yes,” or do I wait to hear from God first? Do I ask for that job and then, begin to prepare as though I have received it, packing up my bags, buying the plane ticket, moving into the vicinity and signing a new lease, all to demonstrate my true faith, or should I exercise discretion, only purchasing that air ticket when it has become certain that the job has in fact been given to me? Does the exercise of discretion negate the faith that is required to receive the petition?
2 Additional Conditions to Answered Prayer
As many of the posts above indicate, receiving answer to prayer requires more than just faith. There are five elements of answered prayer:
(a) Ask in faith.
“f you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive” (Mat 21:21-22).
“[W]hoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them” (Mark 11:23-24).
“Let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind” (Jam 1:6).
(b) The petition must be in accordance with God’s will.
“Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him” (1Jn 5:14-15).
(c) Ask in Jesus’s name
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it” (John 14:12-14).
(d) The petition must be free from worldly lust
“You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures” (Jam 4:2-3).
(e) First eliminate sin, unrighteousness and lack of forgiveness from your life (Pro 28:13; Isa 59:2-3; Jam 5:16-18; Mark 11:25-26)
Sin, unrighteousness and lack of forgiveness separate us from God and can have an impact on the effectiveness of our prayer.
Consider:
“He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy” (Pro 28:13).
“But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood …” (Isa 59:2-3).
In contrast:
Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit (Jam 5:16-18).
If we have anything against anyone, we must forgive him before petitioning God:
“And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses” (Mark 11:25-26).
Wouldn’t Jesus’s teaching in Mark 11:24 (“whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them”) been more complete if he had instead said:
Whatever things you ask when you pray, you will have them if: (i) you ask in faith; (ii) the petition is in accordance with God’s will; (iii) you ask in Jesus’s name; (iv) the petition is free from worldly lust; (v) you have eliminated sin, unrighteousness and lack of forgiveness from your life.

 

[jmt356]

In this post, I will reply to several of the other posts that were posted on this thread.

1 Brother Mike
You asked to be put in the kitchen five times. After it was denied the fifth time, why didn’t you give up and conclude that it was not God’s will for you to work in the kitchen?
After all, we know from the Scripture that God does not answer all of our petitions. Consider:
(a) Paul pled with God three times regarding his “thorn,” but God said to him, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’” (2Co 12:8-9).
(b) Jesus prayed, saying “take this cup away from Me” (Luk 22:42), but He was nonetheless delivered to the cross, fulfilling God’s purpose.
(c) David pled with God to not take the life of his son (2Sa 12:16); nonetheless, the child died after seven days of illness (2Sa 12:18)).
2 WIP
WIP wrote: “When does God not answer prayer from a believer? Is it that He doesn't answer or that He just doesn't grant the request? I believe God always answers prayer from a believer but the answer isn't always "Yes" and it may not always be immediate. There are times when one prays and the answer comes later or slowly over time.”
Whether we call it “answering a prayer” or “granting a request” or “answering a petition,” I am referring to the promise made in Matthew 21:22: “whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive” (Mat 21:22). In other words, what I am asking about are petitions made that are not granted. I am trying to reconcile Matthew 21:22 with my own experience of asking for something, believing it would be granted and then seeing the request denied.
Moreover, WIP cites 1 John 5:14-15, in which clarifies that it is the petitions that are made according to God’s will that are granted.
3 The_Episcle
The_Episcle said,
“it seems to me that God may have something else for you that you're not seeing right now. You will not get everything you ask in prayer.”
This seems to confirm that we do not receive everything that we ask for in prayer, even if we believe, which in turn means that Matthew 21:22 (“whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive”) is either wrong or states an incomplete truth (i.e., it states that faith alone is the condition to receiving answers to prayer, whereas there are other conditions, such as the need to ask for God’s will).
4 Brother Mike
Brother Mike wrote:
“You have to believe in your heart that what your saying is coming to pass, with no doubting at all.
“If you believe you receive something, you will speak as if it's taken care of.”
What do you do then when you pray to get that job and you get a rejection letter saying you did not? Do you start to pack your bags and move to the city in which the job was granted to you, as though the job was granted to you anyway? What if you show up at the front door and the recruiters say, “I am sorry; your application was rejected”?
5 john darling
john darling wrote:
“Anyway, perhaps there really could be some truth in the argument that the prayer may be answered weeks or even years later but when every unanswered prayer has some argumentative technicality to explain-away why the request was not "granted" it starts to sound like a people who just cannot hear "no."”
Do you thus believe that the answer to some prayer is “no,” even if the petitioner asks with faith, believing he will receive? If so, then how do you explain Jesus’s promise in Matthew 21:22: “And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive”? Was he wrong? Was his teaching incomplete?
Also, I believe John 9:1-3 (“Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him”) is a poor example of unanswered prayer; if the blind man had friends or family members that were praying for his healing, their prayers were answered in John 9:7.
john darling also wrote:
Is it really consistent with what Jesus taught to claim that a worldly job is an answer to prayer? Is it God's plan for his followers to make more money? How could anyone come to such a conclusion after reading the new testament?
In my case, the petition did not involve a job where I would make more money. Rather, it was a job defending the poor and voiceless and I would have been making less money than I currently make. But the petition was denied.
6 WIP
WIP asked:
“Have you any Scripture references that record God not answering prayers from a believer? And by "not answering prayers" I'm talking about God ignoring or turning His back to the petitioner.”
I do not have any Scripture references in which God ignores or turns His back on the petitioner, but I have some in which he does not grant a believer’s petition. For example, Paul pled with God three times regarding his “thorn.” God denied the request, telling Paul, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness” (2Co 12:8-9).
WIP later wrote:
I think there a four possible responses that God can make to prayer.
1. "Yes."
2. "No."
3. "Not now."
4. no answer.
I do not believe that God will apply #4 because I believe He answers all prayer from believers. This is expressed in Matthew 21:21-22, Mark 11:22-24, and 1 John 5:14-15 NKJV
The title of this thread is “Do we receive whatever we ask for in prayer, believing?” I opened this thread to try to reconcile Matthew 7:7, which implies that we receive whatever we ask for (“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you”) and my own experience, in which petitions made in prayer were not granted. For my purposes, the distinction between God’s not answering my petition and God’s answering it by saying “no” are the same thing because in both cases, the petition made in prayer was not granted. Thus, whether God answered the prayer by saying “no” or He simply did not answer, the petition was not granted and I would thus like to understand how to properly understanding Matthew 7:7, which states that we receive whatever we ask for, and my own experience, which has sometimes proved the opposite. I do not think we need to dwell on the distinction between unanswered prayer and prayer that is answered, but where the answer is “no.”
I understand that sometimes, we may ask for things that may not be in our best interest and God, in his infinite wisdom, may answer “no” because that may be best for us. I have no problem with that. My issue is however the Scriptures that promise that we receive anything we request. I already quoted Matthew 7:7 above. We may also consider Luke 11:9 for this purpose: “Ask and it shall be given you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.”
I believe the answer to this riddle is provided in Matthew, 1 John and James:
- We must ask in faith (Mat 21:21-22)
- We must ask for [and thus know] God’s will (1 John 5:14-15)
- We must not ask according to worldly lust (Jam 4:2-3)
- We must first eliminate sin, unrighteousness and lack of forgiveness from our lives (Pro 28:13; Isa 59:2-3; Jam 5:16-18; Mark 11:25-26)
7 Brother Mike
Brother Mike wrote:
We are told to walk by faith, not by sight. By faith, we see we have it, the answer is there and it's done.
It's sort of like someone sending you a check for a million dollars, it's in the mail. You can say I am a millionaire, as the check is in your name, but not arrived yet.
A person has faith when they say, I have tomatoes growing out back. You go back there and there are only little plants, no tomatoes. In that persons mind though, He has tomatoes and they will be there.
Both empirical evidence and the Scriptures teach us that not all petition are granted. Although David pled to God to not take the life of his son (2Sa 12:16), the child died (2Sa 12:18)); although Jonah prayed to the Lord, saying, “please take my life from me” (Jon 4:3), the Lord denied Jonah’s petition; although Paul pled with God three times regarding his “thorn,” the petition was denied (2Co 12:8-9).
In light of these examples, isn’t it unwise to go about living and acting as though the petition has been granted, since it is possible that it could be denied? The person who says he is a millionaire might go off and purchase a new home or give money away to charities, only to find out that the check never arrives and there was a misunderstanding. He would be forced to breach his contract to purchase the home or promise to donate to charity. Wouldn’t be wiser to wait for the check to arrive and the funds to transfer into his account before buying the home and donating to charity?
8 john darling
john darling wrote:
The Matthew verse seems to be the only example where the caveat "in thy name" or "according to thy will" is not included.
Actually, there are others. For example:
Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Luke 11:9 And I say to you, Ask and it shall be given you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you. Luke 11:10 For everyone who asks receives. And he who seeks finds. And to him who knocks it shall be opened.

 

[Brother Mike]

I will reply in two separate posts. My first post will set out my own initial thoughts. My separate post will reply to several of the other posts that were published on this thread.
1 Initial Thoughts
I would like to refocus this thread on the original question: Do we receive whatever things we ask in prayer, believing? Matthew 21:22 states yes, but empirical evidence often suggests otherwise. Perhaps the discussion regarding whether it is appropriate to work for money can be moved to a new thread.
On the one hand, I want to trust Jesus’s words in Mark 11:24 (“whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them”) by, for example, making preparation in faith, as though the petitions I have presented to Jesus have already been granted. However, my experience demonstrates that sometimes the answer to my prayer is “no.”

“Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him” (1Jn 5:14-15).

To answer your quoting me in two places, you got half of your first statement correct. We must believe that we recive, so it can't be possible to really do that if we also believe the answer might be no. Your almost there.

Circular logic in your next point. The confidence we have in him is if we ask anything according to his will, He heard, and if He heard, the petition is granted. God hearing, grants the request.

So, if we follow the first step of asking according to his will, then the next step of having confidence to believe we receive would never be NO, to our request.

So, God would never answer prayer, No, Maybe, or later. It can't be no if were in line with asking according to his will, it can't be Maybe, if we do His will, and it can't be latter since we already believed we received.

Empirical Scriptural proof the Answer can be NO.

There is no such thing as that if we are not out of line in asking according to the will of God.

Jesus was not confused by God's will, he knew He had to go to the cross, He just asked if there was another way, then He is all ears, otherwise He said your will be Done.

David as not confused by God's will, Satan had access through judgement to the child, so God is not going to change what He already Told David. It's sort of like Asking God if he will help you get away with robbing a bank. Getting caught does not mean God said no, just means your stupid.

Paul's issue was not the Messenger of Satan, Paul's issue was lack of understanding the Grace was already there and power to deal with the messenger of Satan. Jesus never told Paul NO, Jesus told him a better answer than Paul expected. Paul's mistake was going in thinking He was strong in Revelation, which He mentioned, and did not factor in the Power of Christ "Anointing" that was already available to him. He said He would rather be weak in something, not knowing than to think He knows.
Latter he wrote that I can do all things through Christ that Strengthens me. Something He did not see when Satan sent that messenger to kick his butt.

Kitchen Job:
God's will is not determined by something not coming to pass. That is just not responsible at all. The disciples who could not cast out that devil for lack of faith did not go write a book about How God sometimes heals and delivers and sometimes God does not. They did the smart thing and asked Jesus why they could not cast him out. They were not clueless to the Will of God, and smart enough to know they came short. Lack of faith in this case.

Jesus said ask anything in my name and I'll do it, He also said you have what you say and believe. Now the question is, do you really believe, and if you say you do, where did that faith come from? We also tend to forget that it's Faith and Patience that inherit the promises, and sometimes asking big, means it's Going to the the Lord awhile to get you to the place you can actually believe you can have it. If you give up, then that is not faith, that is giving up.

As for my Kitchen Job, being turned down is no indication God won't make a way to get that Job. My faith is in God, not the Job, or the People in charge of the Job. It's never about how big the giants are, or if there is a ocean in the way. It's not the pile of bills, or how sick the doctor says you are. None of that is ever the issue.

Faith checks:
We don't write faith checks, and just believe the money is there. We believe for the money, get the money, then write the check.

My issue is however the Scriptures that promise that we receive anything we request. I already quoted Matthew 7:7 above. We may also consider Luke 11:9 for this purpose: “Ask and it shall be given you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.”

I think you already have some pretty good ideas of why people's prayers do not get answered. Everyone one of your prayers, should be answered 100% of the time. If they are not, then it's you that needs to make adjustments, and not God just saying NO, Wait, or whatever people make up out of failed experiences.

All the promises of God are yes and Amen, so there is no... NO to the equation.

You covered a scenario about being rejected at the door. Being rejected means nothing. I ordered a tape player, and they told me it would be 3 months before I got it because they had to engrave my prison number on it, and they where behind. Well, I told everyone in my prison dorm, that I sent the angels out, and I will get my tape player today, the rest of you will have to wait.
So, I waited, and the guard came and called me to the commissary. I thought here is my tape player. I walk in, and they just asked me if I had gotten my Kenneth Hagin books that day as they forgot to mark me off the list. I said yes, and I asked if they could engrave my player since I was there. The guard told me they were 3 months behind, and to go back to my dorm. I asked again, and the guard got a bit upset at me.

So, I left, and walked out the door, but then I thought....... NO, I sent the angles out, it can't be I am not in faith here. So, I walked back in half expecting to get thrown in the Hole, when the inmate in back asked about me to the guard and what was my name again. The guard saw me and called me over. The guy doing the engraving said mine got mixed up with the pile he was engraving and my tape player was ready. I walked back with it.

Now, Had I not gone back in expecting, my tape player would have been thrown in the 3 month containers and sealed until they got to those inmates according to when they ordered electronics.

Faith believes, and it does not give up. If I have a faith failure, it's a pretty big deal between me and God. I don't let it go until I find out why. I take prayer very seriously, and have learned a whole lot on how things work by not accepting my prayer not being answered. I am still learning things.

A simple, Father, what do you think about that, before asking can save a whole lot of getting things that waste our time, and a whole lot of wondering why the heck God did not answer that prayer. Thing is, God will grant you want you want, just like He gave Israel a King, Just like He told Baalam to go with them, but that is not what we want. We want what God wants for us, and that is far more than we can even imagine having now, follow his path, do it His way.

Long enough.

Mike.