D
DaveM
Guest
What is your opinion regarding this view according to arminian?
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K
Khristeeanos
Guest
Do you mean this one?
I would say that this is not an arminian view, but one straight out of the Bible.
You will never find an individual being condemned to the Lake of Fire by a predetermined decision by God anywhere in the Bible.
God predestidined a plan of salvation, not a person for salvation.
I would say that this is not an arminian view, but one straight out of the Bible.
You will never find an individual being condemned to the Lake of Fire by a predetermined decision by God anywhere in the Bible.
God predestidined a plan of salvation, not a person for salvation.
D
DaveM
Guest
I would say this is the arminian view as it agrees with the commonly quoted 5 points of arminian, which agree with the Bible.Bonsai said:
Ergo, calvinism is wrong then.
Again, this renders calvinism false.
Vic C.
Member
Hmm, what do we do with this verse?
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
or this one?
2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Or these?
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 22:14
Mark 13:20
John 13:18
John 15:16
John 15:19
Acts 9:15
Acts 22:14
James 2:5
1 Peter 2:4
Revelation 17:14
And I haven't even gotten to the ones that say elect, elected, etc.
Here is a point I have raised in the past; God knows the beginning from the end, correct? Therefore, He should know beforehand who will believe and who won't and chooses the correct place in time to call each one of us out. To us, that would certainly seem like a predetermination or predestination, wouldn't it?
Just thinking out loud.
8-)
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
or this one?
2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Or these?
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 22:14
Mark 13:20
John 13:18
John 15:16
John 15:19
Acts 9:15
Acts 22:14
James 2:5
1 Peter 2:4
Revelation 17:14
And I haven't even gotten to the ones that say elect, elected, etc.
Here is a point I have raised in the past; God knows the beginning from the end, correct? Therefore, He should know beforehand who will believe and who won't and chooses the correct place in time to call each one of us out. To us, that would certainly seem like a predetermination or predestination, wouldn't it?
Just thinking out loud.
8-)
D
DaveM
Guest
Why do you need to do something to these verses? or those that speak of election?
The call to each of us is only received by those who believe, not by God calling some people and not others which would be unrighteous. We should not blame God that some people don't listen to think that then God would need to premake certain people or predetermine them for salvation, while others for hell. That is evil.
According to Eph. 1.4 and 2 Thess. 2.13 God chose us which gives us comfort in knowing this, as well as, we know before the foundations of the world God could forsee our choice for Him afforded to us all by being made in His image, and as the Holy Spirit convinces wherein we listen to that call. The unsaved do not listen so they do not get saved.
The call to each of us is only received by those who believe, not by God calling some people and not others which would be unrighteous. We should not blame God that some people don't listen to think that then God would need to premake certain people or predetermine them for salvation, while others for hell. That is evil.
According to Eph. 1.4 and 2 Thess. 2.13 God chose us which gives us comfort in knowing this, as well as, we know before the foundations of the world God could forsee our choice for Him afforded to us all by being made in His image, and as the Holy Spirit convinces wherein we listen to that call. The unsaved do not listen so they do not get saved.
Vic C.
Member
I don't need to do anything with them. One could read them and see predestination and they wouldn't be wrong for doing so. I was asking how you understand these verses.
I believe in the free will to either choose Him or reject and at the same time I believe He already knows who will and calls them out in His good time. I tried to explain that in the second half of my last post.
We, as we tell people the Good News, could very well be the tool that God uses to awaken or stir the spirit in them, for lack of a better analogy right now.
D
DaveM
Guest
You said "what do we do with this verse" and then you said, you "don't need to do anything with them". Perhaps be more careful with your language.
Predestination is a fact, but not by pre-making for salvation. That is evil, which is why calvinism is not of God. Rather, predestination is by God's foreknowledge not as though calling some out while not calling out others, since that would be unjust. God calls everyone, except that not every accepts God's salvation.
Ergo, God's way is by our sovereign free-will, resistable grace, unlimited atonement, conditional election and preservation of the saints.
Predestination is a fact, but not by pre-making for salvation. That is evil, which is why calvinism is not of God. Rather, predestination is by God's foreknowledge not as though calling some out while not calling out others, since that would be unjust. God calls everyone, except that not every accepts God's salvation.
Ergo, God's way is by our sovereign free-will, resistable grace, unlimited atonement, conditional election and preservation of the saints.
Drew
Member
Vic said:
If you are suggesting that God's foreknowledge effectively entails or involves predetermination or predestination, then I would disagree. I used to think that foreknowledge basically implied predestination but I am now convinced otherwise - God can indeed know the future perfectly without robbing us of our free will. This issue is argued at length in the "Theology" category ("the old free will / foreknowledge question" or something to that effect).
D
DaveM
Guest
Predestination is by foreknowledge and does not mean predetermining. When God says predestination He is simply saying because He already knows all the outcomes, He can account for them or predestinate them, while allowing each man made in His image to effectly resist grace or to come to the cross as helpless sinner to be saved by God's saving grace.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom 8.29). "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied". (1 Peter 1.2). Ergo, predestination is by foreknowledge. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom 8.29). "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied". (1 Peter 1.2). Ergo, predestination is by foreknowledge. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose.
K
Khristeeanos
Guest
Hi Vic.Vic said:
I searched out the history of the church to find Calvinistic teachings and only Augustine had hints of such a doctrine and that was lost until John Calvin and that was only 500 years ago.
So for 1,500 years, only one person in the history of the church taught Calvinism.
So I must say that I don't agree with the conclusions drawn from the words predestine, elect, and foreknowledge that Calvinists draw.
But that is just me.
K
KnarfKS
Guest
Romans 9
Any explaination of this scripture in the armenian view?
I admit that I lean way more torward the calvinist view, but I have never had a clear explaination of this particular scripture in the armenian view.
Any explaination of this scripture in the armenian view?
I admit that I lean way more torward the calvinist view, but I have never had a clear explaination of this particular scripture in the armenian view.
This seems like we suddenly appear and then God knows how we would act. A little odd considering I always thought that God made us therefore would have to give us at least attributes that made us go one way or the other in circumstances. It is very confusing, but it sounds a bit weird to me.
D
DaveM
Guest
It's arminian. Armenian is entirely something else.
K
KnarfKS
Guest
I might actually be trying to get the opinion of someone from armenia...just maybe :-D :-D :-D
Sorry about the spelling.
Sorry about the spelling.
The plot thickens. Please read carefully.
Eph.1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
2 Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
P.S. Faith is the result of predestination, not the other way around. Acts 13:48. Foresight and Foreknew ("Whom") are two different words.
Eph.1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
2 Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
P.S. Faith is the result of predestination, not the other way around. Acts 13:48. Foresight and Foreknew ("Whom") are two different words.
K
Khristeeanos
Guest
Romans 9 needs to be understood in light of more than just a few verses in the middle. It is a continuation of the entire book, especially ch. 8-11.KnarfKS said:
They are dealing with the NATION of Israel and how salvation was no longer attainable through the law and how the Jewish nation rejected their Messiah and God turned away from them and to the Gentile NATION.
Individual salvation is not the theme of the book.
D
DaveM
Guest
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom 8.29). "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied". (1 Peter 1.2). Ergo, predestination is by foreknowledge. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose. That is evil.
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17).
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48). All those saved, do in fact believe. It is not demanding they be saved before they belief otherwise John 3.16,18 would be a lie.
The antecedent to predestinating is foreknowing. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose. Pre-making (calvinism) is not required, but just a pride and false work of the unrenewed mind.
The plot is not thick but it is an easy yoke to bear. Therefore, you should have no problem agreeing with, as do I - http://top100osasarminian.itopsites.com
The reason why Jacob’s brother is not named is because it is written in the Scriptures, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated†(Rom. 9.13). This is the marvelous way of God’s election. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion†(Rom. 9.15), thus showing that the purpose of God according to election “is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy†(Rom. 9.16). Notwithstanding this sovereign way of God’s election, it is not done casually but rather according to His “foreknowledge.†For God knows beforehand who will be willing to accept grace and so be blessed: “the elect . . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father†(1 Peter 1.1,2). First, foreknowledge; then, election. Due to God’s love for Jacob, his sons became the twelve tribes of Israel.
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17).
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48). All those saved, do in fact believe. It is not demanding they be saved before they belief otherwise John 3.16,18 would be a lie.
The antecedent to predestinating is foreknowing. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose. Pre-making (calvinism) is not required, but just a pride and false work of the unrenewed mind.
The plot is not thick but it is an easy yoke to bear. Therefore, you should have no problem agreeing with, as do I - http://top100osasarminian.itopsites.com
The reason why Jacob’s brother is not named is because it is written in the Scriptures, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated†(Rom. 9.13). This is the marvelous way of God’s election. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion†(Rom. 9.15), thus showing that the purpose of God according to election “is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy†(Rom. 9.16). Notwithstanding this sovereign way of God’s election, it is not done casually but rather according to His “foreknowledge.†For God knows beforehand who will be willing to accept grace and so be blessed: “the elect . . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father†(1 Peter 1.1,2). First, foreknowledge; then, election. Due to God’s love for Jacob, his sons became the twelve tribes of Israel.
Dave M, As I said, predestination causes faith, not the other way around. Acts 13:48.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom 8.29).
It simply does not say For whom he did foreknow would believe. That is read into the text to protect arminian philosophies. It's just not there. Notice also the "Whom". He is speaking of a people, not an event. These are the "whom" that the Father gave to the Son, that He should not lose one of them. The sheep. You can do the footwork, but foreknow in Romans 9:29 means foreloved.
Again, please consider this carefully.
Eph.1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
2 Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Drew
Member
I agree with DaveM - God did not pre-make us to choose. I am not sure that I agree with everything in the post, but I do not think that there is a pre-destined elect - a set of individuals whose ultimate membership in heaven was pre-determined by God long before they were born.
Since Biblical texts can be used to defend both sides of this issue (I have appended some "free will" verses at the end of this post). the issue (for me) is decided by an argument that I suspect is familiar to most of you.
Quite simply, as I understand it, the "pre-destination" camp believe that some are born into this life essentially pre-fated for an eternity in the fires of hell, with no degree of freedom to escape this fate. These persons are no more able to escape this fate than an apple can resist falling to the ground.
Accountability without autonomy - punishment without even the possibility to choose to "do the right thing" - these notions make no sense to me (and I suspect even to those who believe in pre-destination).
A loving God would simply not create beings with the capacity to feel pain and then essentially deprive of them of any freedom to escape an eternal punishment.
Proverbs 1:29
"Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD"
Joshua 24:15
"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve"
Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing"
Since Biblical texts can be used to defend both sides of this issue (I have appended some "free will" verses at the end of this post). the issue (for me) is decided by an argument that I suspect is familiar to most of you.
Quite simply, as I understand it, the "pre-destination" camp believe that some are born into this life essentially pre-fated for an eternity in the fires of hell, with no degree of freedom to escape this fate. These persons are no more able to escape this fate than an apple can resist falling to the ground.
Accountability without autonomy - punishment without even the possibility to choose to "do the right thing" - these notions make no sense to me (and I suspect even to those who believe in pre-destination).
A loving God would simply not create beings with the capacity to feel pain and then essentially deprive of them of any freedom to escape an eternal punishment.
Proverbs 1:29
"Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD"
Joshua 24:15
"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve"
Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing"
Eph.1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
2 Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
2 Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,