Do you agree with this arminian statement?

[Drew]

The fact that there are scriptures to support both pre-destination and free-will choice (to receive God's gift of salvation) is not news. And "verse wars" is simply not the way to resolve such issues.

For those who believe in pre-destination, how do you reconcile the notion of a loving God with the idea that some are born "destined for destruction"?

 

[DaveM]

Drew,

You and I are gathered here and where there are two or three gathered in agreement, there is the church.

If you take a poll, you would be amazed at how few believe in osas arminian as noted here - http://top100osasarminian.itopsites.com I have seen some polls and it ranges between 1% to 5% usually of those that are osas arminian.

 

[lovely]

I think that when we are discussing Scripture, which I think is good, we should remember that it should be about opening our hearts to God's light of Truth. It is not a battle, because Scripture teaches us who we battle with. I do not view it as a war, nor do I want to. Though there are points of doctrine that I disagree about with some here, there are also fundamental Truths that we all agree on that unite us as the family of God made up of true believers. This being the case, we are all brothers and sisters, and we all belong to the church. I don't see a reason to cause a deeper divide, or to not be able to worship, pray, and study Scripture together in a loving way, even in the midst of disagreement. We are here by God's mercy and grace, and that should keep us humble as we seek the Truth of God's Word. Blessings.

 

[DaveM]

I think it is dangerous to think eveyone is a Christian here. It is in fact spiritual warfare because there are the tares in the kingdom of heaven, that is, those who appear to be in the kingdom but are in fact unsaved. Though Christians ought not to try to tear out the tares, on the other hand we have to be aware of them too so as not to be deceived as they are.

In otherwords, it is not healthy to break bread with the pride of those holding over others the idea they were pre-made for salvation which makes a mockery of the church. You will need to cast them out when appropriate, as their pride will be too lording.

 

[lovely]

DaveM,

I see you hold to the belief that all those who hold to a calvinistic theology are non-believers. I think that you are wrong to judge the hearts of those who believe in the doctrines of grace as proud, especially when the entire belief is based on Scripture, and on an understanding of man's total depravity. I see many calvinist, and arimians who bare fruit, though it is true that there are tares among them both. The tares are not those of different denominations than you...they are those who do not truly believe in Christ our Lord, and the essential doctrine that is required for that belief.

I was sincere in my request about Romans 9. I really did appreciate your explanation of the previous Scriptures. However, if you view this as a war with me, a tare according to you, please do not answer. Scripture should be studied with a heart that wants to learn and grow in the light of His truth, not used as ammunition against fellow believers, of which I am. My prayers.

 

[DaveM]

I can't say every calvinist is a non-believer for that would be overassuming since some can be saved, just deceived. Nonetheless, total depravity is not found in the Scriptures, that is, man is fallen, not total depravity. Do you understand the distinction?

In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, certainly God will always desire that we refuse the teaching that He would pre-make people for salvation and others for hell. This renders calvinism impotent.

There is no problem with Romans 9.

 

[Khristeeanos]

I searched out the history of the church to find Calvinistic teachings and only Augustine had hints of such a doctrine and that was lost until John Calvin and that was only 500 years ago.

So for 1,500 years, only one person in the history of the church taught Calvinism.

Anybody care to comment on this?

 

[DaveM]

Surely there are others, but too bad it didn't stay lost for it has done much damage to the church in false revivals (sardis church period) of men gallavanting around pridefully claiming they were pre-made for salvation, and lording it over others. Who needs that? That is evil. This is like filling up a glass of water again and again, but with less water each time.

God's way is agreed to by osas arminian - http://top100osasarminian.itopsites.com

 

[Drew]

While I do not believe that pre-destination is correct, I certainly do not think that we should call those who believe otherwise "evil". I also think that we should not in any way "shun" such persons. Loving each other is the highest calling - and love cannot be effected by closing ourselves off from others.

My problem with pre-destination is the necessary implication that some are "pre-destined for destruction". The notion that God punishes some people for an eternity, and that this fate cannot be escaped no matter how much such people wish to good, seems utterly incomprehensible to me.

 

[Dave...]

double post

 

[Dave...]

DaveM,

Why do you think that something that you do apart from God's grace can earn God's mercy? What filthy rag could do that?

I gave you two simple passages, surely this is no problem for an osasarminian to explain? You be the first. :

 

[prayerpower]

All of the verses that everyone has shared are GREAT. But this is what the Spirit is speaking to me:

God the Father created everyone to have a "God shaped hole" in our hearts.

God knew before the creation of the world, that not everyone will fill that hole with Him.

We all have free will to choose God - or not to choose God.

All Christians (those who believe in Jesus as their Lord & Savior) are pre-destined for eternal bliss in Heaven with Him.

That God has "chosen" everyone to believe in HIm and accept Him. (Just not everyone will)

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[DaveM]

Amen. Very simple. Not so simple for a calvinist.

Praise the Lord, God through Arminius gave the mistaken assumptions of the unregenereted John Calvin.

http://top100osasarminian.itopsites.com

 

[Dave...]

It is very simple for the Calvinist, we read our Bible and believe it.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Surely there are others, but too bad it didn't stay lost for it has done much damage to the church in false revivals (sardis church period) of men gallavanting around pridefully claiming they were pre-made for salvation, and lording it over others. Who needs that? That is evil. This is like filling up a glass of water again and again, but with less water each time.

Hi DaveM. Is this a reply to my post? I can't tell. Anyways, thanks.

 

[John the Baptist]

Predestination is by foreknowledge and does not mean predetermining. When God says predestination He is simply saying because He already knows all the outcomes, He can account for them or predestinate them, while allowing each man made in His image to effectly resist grace or to come to the cross as helpless sinner to be saved by God's saving grace.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom 8.29). "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied". (1 Peter 1.2). Ergo, predestination is by foreknowledge. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose.

*****
Good spiritual intellect! :fadein:

I like this one also in Romans 4:17's last part of the verse. But God was just telling us what the Godhead knew about Abraham in eternity, huh! But when God calls things before they are, man gets all Babylonian confused. :

Kind of like the Hebrews 11:13 ones that were already dead 'in the faith' we are told. (not us yet though)

---John

 

[DaveM]

Thanks for agreeing. It is easy to agree for it is just common sense. It is a good test to see where peoples' minds are at when they respond to such simplicity. Legalists want to be bad lawyers and not distinguish between the image of God and the will of the flesh (only see the will of the flesh), whereby it is the image of God, not the will of the flesh in the man that can come to the cross as afforded that right by God making the man in His image.

Obviously man does choose the right way, otherwise no man would ever come to the cross to receive God's grace. God chooses because He forsees that choice that some employ made in His image. And He longs to see that choice made.

Perhaps some will wonder why God employs such a troublesome way to proclaim His word. A question of this kind belongs to the same category of questions often asked by unbelievers, such as: Why does God not take away the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Why does He not create a species of man who cannot sin? For would not man then avoid the plight of sinning and God escape the dilemma of atonement? The same answer can be given to the question concerning the ministers of the word as to these similar inquiries. God does not will that the man He creates be like a machine, having no freedom of choice but having to obey perfectly. It would be easy for Him to make such a perfect machine. There would be no trouble with man, but neither would there be glory for God. Such obedience and goodness have no spiritual value. There may not be any fault or sin, yet neither can there be holiness, for the obedience is passive. God rejects such a thing.

What God desires to have is the kind of man who knows his right hand from his left. He accordingly creates a mankind that is capable of choosing the evil as well as the good, the wrong as well as the right. If the man God created were capable of choosing obedience to Him only, the glory he would render to God would not exceed that which a machine can present. God gave man a free will, capable of choosing good or evil. In such a circumstance, if man should choose good, a glorious thing is done by him. Although the possibility of doing evil is a great danger, that of doing good is of exceeding glory. This explains why God does not create a machine-like man who can only do good and obey God, but why instead He makes a man free to choose good or evil. God decrees it to be a matter of glory for man to choose good and to choose to obey under his own initiative.

Now God applies this same principle to ministry of the New Testament order. In terms of difficulties, it surely gives God much trouble to speak through man. He would have no trouble, though, if He were to speak directly, nor would He incur any trouble if He used angels to communicate His word. Even speaking by an ass is less troublesome than speaking through man, since an ass is far less complicated and, therefore, poses less obstacles in the areas of the mind, understanding, memory, intention, and so on. Nonetheless, speaking by an ass is an exceptional case. God used the ass to speak only after the prophet failed. He never intended to make an ass a prophet, because He always calls man to be the prophet.

God’s wish is to use man. Man was created for God’s specific purpose. As He did not make an obedient machine at the time of creation, so He now rejects the use of a preaching machine. He does not want an automaton; He wants a man with free will. It is a calculated risk with God to choose man as a minister of His word. Yet in spite of the complexity of man and his many problems such as sin, defilement, weakness, the outward man, and natural resistance, God still entrusts His word to man. Through the greatest rigor God obtains His highest glory.

The reason why Jacob’s brother is not named is because it is written in the Scriptures, “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated†(Rom. 9.13). This is the marvelous way of God’s election. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion†(Rom. 9.15), thus showing that the purpose of God according to election “is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy†(Rom. 9.16). Notwithstanding this sovereign way of God’s election, it is not done casually but rather according to His “foreknowledge.†For God knows beforehand who will be willing to accept grace and so be blessed: “the elect . . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father†(1 Peter 1.1,2). First, foreknowledge; then, election. Due to God’s love for Jacob, his sons became the twelve tribes of Israel.

According to His foreknowledge God foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the fall of men; hence He was unable to establish His authority in angels or in the Adamic race.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" (Rom. 8.29). Ergo, predestination is by foreknowledge. The antecedent to predestinating is foreknowing. God foreknows the choice we would make in His image. He does not pre-make us to choose. Pre-making (calvinism) is not required, but just a pride and false work of the unrenewed mind.

So we are left with a work here of arminian that agrees with God's Word and proper salvation according to God's will - http://top100osasarminian.itopsites.com

If you can not accept this way of God's salvation, there is not some other way.

 

[John the Baptist]

While I do not believe that pre-destination is correct, I certainly do not think that we should call those who believe otherwise "evil". I also think that we should not in any way "shun" such persons. Loving each other is the highest calling - and love cannot be effected by closing ourselves off from others.

My problem with pre-destination is the necessary implication that some are "pre-destined for destruction". The notion that God punishes some people for an eternity, and that this fate cannot be escaped no matter how much such people wish to good, seems utterly incomprehensible to me.

****
John here:
You need to understand the difference between being a Christian (A real one!) and being 'in membership' with the wrong fold, those who teach error that you do not see! (church-denomination-fold, or call it what you will)

You can be a real Christian believing error while being ignorant, error that you do not understand as such.
Now: That does not make the 'fold' Christian! OK?? Read Revelation 17:5,
these are not Christian folds! Surely one must agree that when we 'see & are led' (see Romans 8:14) into new Truth, that this will be applied to us?? Also see Luke 12:47-48.

Then, there are the ones of Revelation 18:4 & even John 10:16. Ask yourself why Christ warns that to stay in membership is FATAL?

Surely we can rest assured that He is not in these denominations!! See Joshua 7:12's last part of the verse. And also Isaiah 59:1-2 or the N.T. verse of John 9:31!
So the question begs an answer?? Who is then? See Revelation 3:9

 

[Tzalam]

Let's just say, God is NEVER surprised.
Then, let's agree, that, we're all going to be held accountable for every idle word we speak.

If we are going to be held accountable for unprofitable speech, then, that means we have the ability to choose.
We ALL believe we have the ability to choose.
Proof? Every parent who disciplines his/her child.
Every person who judges someone else's behavior.
Every jury who decides if a person is guilty.

If you don't have a choice, you can't possibly be guilty.
God knew before we were born if we were going to end up in Heaven, or in the Lake of Fire.
He drew us towards Him, we still had to exercise our free will to choose to follow Him. And to submit to His will.

 

[Tzalam]

Romans 10:9-12 says how you can be saved.

The bible clearly says that anyone who does not believe is condemned already, but, God says, also clearly, that whosoever WILL, let him come to Jesus.
Jesus will not reject anyone who calls upon Him to save them.

Jesus clearly says ALL who reject Him, WILL spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Why? Because they chose to live without Him, here on earth, they decided, they used their power of will, their choice, to push Jesus OUT of their hearts and lives, and minds.
You who are reading this right now, and aren't born again, are making a conscious choice whether to accept or reject Jesus RIGHT NOW.

No, God doesn't send anyone to burn forever. They send themselves.
They choose their eternity.
Where will you choose to spend YOUR eternity?