Do you agree with this arminian statement?

[Khristeeanos]

Romans 10:9-12 says how you can be saved.

Please don't take this disrespectfully, but Romans is written to Christians, not to the lost telling them how to be saved.

Three of the four Gospels say they were written so that they could be saved and the epistles were written for the Christian to grow and to know what doctrines to believe.

God bless you.

 

[Tzalam]

Bonsai, I didn't know Romans was written only to Christians, and that the verses I mentioned weren't supposed to be used as witnessing tools to the lost. This is what I meant. I've used Romans 10:9-12 a lot of times, to explain the simplicity of salvation to adults, and children.
You're saying these verses weren't good for lost people to read?
Really?
If that's true, and, I'm happy to be learning something new, from you, so, please give me more information, if that's true, and explain why the verses were placed in the book of Romans.Tell me where you learned this from, what person or book. I'd like to investigate on my own.
These verses were a tutorial, to unexperienced Christians? To tell them exactly what to say to lost people, so the lost people could be sure of
their salvation? I just don't understand what you mean. Sorry.
Please explain more.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Why would Jesus inspire the writer of Romans to say if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved,
if the only ones reading it were born again, saved, Christians?
The born again Christian already knows that when they called upon the name of the Lord Jesus, they were saved.
Why would Jesus tell Christians how to be saved?

 

[Vice]

I definitely shake my head whenever a predestination/ free will discussion surfaces among Christians. This is usually the case:

1) The calvinists will usually lean towards a type of fatalistic view.
2) The arminians will usually disregard Bible verses that speak about predestination, or come up with a way to question God's modus operandi (ie, if we don't have a choice, how can God find fault?).

I can't speak for any of you, but I've noted that I have to balance a few things.

Predestination is clearly biblical. The word proorizo (or however you want to spell it) seems to be more of a comfort and honour to Christians. And it looks like God is letting us Christians in on a blessed little secret: he marked us out with a boundary for himself before the world began.

It's also interesting to note that that particular word is NEVER used when the Bible speaks about non-Christians who are "appointed" to certain things. In 1 Peter 2:8, the word isn't proorizo, it seems to be from the word titheimi, speaking about those appointed to destruction.

Thus, I don't understand how calvinists can preach about double predestination. God doesn't invite Christians to think like that. In fact, he commands something strange-- "Go ye therefore..."-- almost as if we should hold out a hope for all.



And predestination wasn't taught only by Augustine until the time of Calvin. The predestination/ free will debate was alive and well in Augustine and Pelagius. Eventually, Pelagius was labelled as a heretic (for various reasons), and Augustine's views were widely adopted in the Christian church. Martin Luther--from the Augustinian order of monks--taught predestination before Calvin put his fatalistic spin on it. But by the time of the reformers, the catholic church had adopted a semi-pelagian view.

 

[Tzalam]

I definitely shake my head whenever a predestination/ free will discussion surfaces among Christians. This is usually the case:

Does that mean you're not a born again Christian??

 

[Khristeeanos]

Bonsai, I didn't know Romans was written only to Christians, and that the verses I mentioned weren't supposed to be used as witnessing tools to the lost.

Here are the quotes from Romans and some other NT Scriptures:

Romans 1:6-7
And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints

This says the book of Romans was written to those who have been called to Jesus Christ and those who are saints (Christians).

John 20:31
But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

See here we read that the Gospel was written so that someone can believe in Christ where the epistles almost all say that they were written to those who already believe.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth: to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christâ€â€their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians 1:1
To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:

Galatians 1:2
To the churches in Galatia:

Ephesians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse:

I could quote more, but I think you get the point. Go look them all up for youself. I don't think Hebrews tells, but it is obvious that the receipitants were Jewish Christians.

This is what I meant. I've used Romans 10:9-12 a lot of times, to explain the simplicity of salvation to adults, and children.
You're saying these verses weren't good for lost people to read?
Really?

Well, I am not saying that they aren't good for them to read, but I would personally suggest telling them to read the actual account of Jesus' life, not just commentary to the churches. That is just my opinion, one that I am sure that is shared with many others.

If that's true, and, I'm happy to be learning something new, from you, so, please give me more information, if that's true, and explain why the verses were placed in the book of Romans.

I am of the opinion (and someone correct me where I may be incorrect) that Romans was written as an explination of how God's salvation works and went from the Judiac Law to any non-Jewish person who believed and obeyed the Gospel.

It is an explaination of how salvation works to those whom already posses it.

Tell me where you learned this from, what person or book. I'd like to investigate on my own.

As I said, it just comes from reading the beginning of the book. If you take it in context and see who was the intended readers of the book or Gospel (like Matthew's was written to Jews and Marks was written to non-Jews I believe) you should get a better understanding of the motivation of what is said. Without that, you can apply different passages to mean different things when there may only be one real meaning in terms of what the writer was trying to explain to those whom would read it.

These verses were a tutorial, to unexperienced Christians? To tell them exactly what to say to lost people, so the lost people could be sure of
their salvation? I just don't understand what you mean. Sorry.
Please explain more.


I will explain more later tonight should I get the time. I think dinner is ready and my stomach is talking to me.

But don't take my word for anything, allow the Holy Spirit to guide you into the fullness of God's Truth during your studies.

God bless you and yours.

 

[John the Baptist]

A quote:
[But don't take my word for anything, allow the Holy Spirit to guide you into the fullness of God's Truth during your studies.]

John here: That is good advice. One might check the Word in Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16.

And remember who it was that divided up the books! With the numbers, periods, coma's & the like. It was not inspiration.

 

[Vice]

I definitely shake my head whenever a predestination/ free will discussion surfaces among Christians. This is usually the case:

Does that mean you're not a born again Christian??

I fail to see the revelance of your question.

 

[Tzalam]

I definitely shake my head whenever a predestination/ free will discussion surfaces among Christians. This is usually the case:

Does that mean you're not a born again Christian??

I fail to see the revelance of your question.

It's quite relevant, and your answer spoke volumes about where you are, spiritually.
When I see a remark such as yours, it tells me the person tsking the subject isn't born again, and their main thrust for their involvement in the argument is basically to assauge their onw discomforts they feel within the boundaries of Christianity.
Since you distinguished yourself as being NOT a Christian, by saying what you said, I'm guessing you are in here either hoping to find answers to some spiritual questions you have, or, you aren't really interested in the topic at all, you might have merely been bored the moment you posted your reply.
Is there another reason for your wanting to involve yourself in a Christian topic?
I'd like to know, so I can properly address you when speaking to you.

P.S.I'd STILL like to hear it from you: Are you born again, or not?

 

[Vice]

It's quite relevant, and your answer spoke volumes about where you are, spiritually.
When I see a remark such as yours, it tells me the person tsking the subject isn't born again, and their main thrust for their involvement in the argument is basically to assauge their onw discomforts they feel within the boundaries of Christianity.
Since you distinguished yourself as being NOT a Christian, by saying what you said, I'm guessing you are in here either hoping to find answers to some spiritual questions you have, or, you aren't really interested in the topic at all, you might have merely been bored the moment you posted your reply.
Is there another reason for your wanting to involve yourself in a Christian topic?
I'd like to know, so I can properly address you when speaking to you.

P.S.I'd STILL like to hear it from you: Are you born again, or not?

So tell me, O Lord Almighty, does it please you to look into my heart and see my faith and trust in Jesus Christ? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



I stated that I shake my head whenever the free will/ predestination debate surfaces because people seem to approach the discussion from the same old angles....as if they had it all figured out. But the point was that we don't have it all figured out, and we probably never will on this side of heaven.

I was dubious of your question because it seemed to insinuate that to be a Christian, one must take an interest in the debate. God gives no such command stating that Christians have to take interest in it, and you are incorrect in stating so.

Yet you've come back with a response that insults me and disqualifies me as a Christian, and this according to WHAT YOU PERCEIVE.....ON THE INTERNET, of all places!!!!!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:




Here is my response to you.

I'm a Christian. I don't use the term "born again" for two reasons:

1) It's redundant. Every Christian is "born again" through the power of the Holy Spirit. That goes without saying. I see people post on this board who I KNOW are "born again" even though they've never stated that they were "born again." I meet people in life who I know are "born again," even though they never use the term "born again."

The terms "Christian" (in the true and traditional sense of the word) and "born again" are virtually synonymous. You can't be "born again" and not be a Christian, and you can't be a Christian without being "born again," and

2) Arrogant, self-proclaimed "born agains" like yourself. Unless your type qualifies someone as a Christian by some unknown and legalistic set of standards, they aren't one in your eyes.



So if you're waiting for me to answer whether or not I'm born again, keep waiting.

I'm a Christian who is absolutely disgusted and insulted by your response and your ignorance.

You want to know what the funny thing is? I'm also a Pastor of the Lutheran Church in Canada, a sister church body of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. I even studied for a Masters in Biblical Studies before I went and got my MDiv. My wife left the Mormon church and came to know the real Jesus while we studied the Bible together and I showed her who Jesus was. The Holy Spirit did the rest. We raise our children in the Christian faith.

Now since you obviously have the gift of spiritual discernment, please tell me about the answer that I gave "that spoke volumes about where I am spiritually." I'd love to hear it.

No, on second thought, don't bother. I'm putting you on ignore, and I'm done with contributing on these forums.

 

[lovely]

Vice,

Please do not be offended and leave the forums. I understand what you are saying in regards to this topic. There are many mysteries that we will never fully understand until God reveals them, this is so true. We can not reconcile everything in our human minds. I am happy, and excited, to study God's Word here, and I hope you will continue to share in that with us. I know it is difficult when there is a disagreement. I was also told that I was not a Christian in this thread. We must not let these disagreements stop us from continuing in fellowship, and study, with other believers. If we humble ourselves before the Lord, and ask Him to teach our hearts with His Holy Spirit, we can truly learn and grow in His Light. I want that. I want that for His church. Please be forgiving, and try not to be offended. Though I do think that these matters should be addressed, but in love, and with grace for one another. This is what God has done for us. I will keep you in my prayers, brother. I hope you stay.

Blessings.

 

[Tzalam]

[quote="ViceSo tell me, O Lord Almighty, does it please you to look into my heart and see my faith and trust in Jesus Christ? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



You want to know what the funny thing is? I'm also a Pastor of the Lutheran Church in Canada, [/quote]

You certainly did get angry at a simple question. Sorry I pushed your sensitive button. And, that's not good of you to say what you did, (first sentence), but, that's between you and God.
You're a Pastor with a very short fuse. I'm glad I'm not a member of your church, and coming to you with any of MY personal questions.

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="ViceSo tell me, O Lord Almighty, does it please you to look into my heart and see my faith and trust in Jesus Christ? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



You want to know what the funny thing is? I'm also a Pastor of the Lutheran Church in Canada,

You certainly did get angry at a simple question. Sorry I pushed your sensitive button. And, that's not good of you to say what you did, (first sentence), but, that's between you and God.
You're a Pastor with a very short fuse. I'm glad I'm not a member of your church, and coming to you with any of MY personal questions.[/quote]

**********
Just a thought, why not just stick to the issue? Skip what one does not know! (motives of others)

---John

 

[Tzalam]

But the point was that we don't have it all figured out, and we probably never will on this side of heaven.I disagree. ALL the answers to the puny questions men and women have, are in the Bible. Most of us are too lazy to search, or, we hope someone else will do the research, and then, we HOPE that's the right answer. And, the reason I do disagree, is because there are several passages of Scripture that explain the supposed conflict between choice and no choice. And, people are ALLOWED to disagree, without it becoming some free for all.
All of man's questions about Him were foreknown by God, and God gave all the answers to every question to man, in His Word. It is holy, and must be read when yielded to the Holy Spirit within those who are born again Christians.

I was dubious of your question because it seemed to insinuate that to be a Christian, one must take an interest in the debate. Your assumption was wrong. No one HAS to take an interest in anything.
We're all at different levels of spiritual maturity. What's interesting to a 7 year old, will not interest a 2 year old, because the younger one lacks the skills to even comprehend the activity that interests the 7 year old. Eventually, the 2 year old will be interested in the 7 year old's activities.
Same spiritually. Not all topics interest all Christians. That's for several reasons, one being many Christians are lazy, and don't study the bible, some Christians are called to focus on OTHER topics of the Bible, because they've been blessed with other spiritual gifts from God.
A person blessed with being a musician for the body of Christ isn't going to be as interested in exhortation or healing ministries, as a person who is given the gift of exhortation, preaching, or healing.
I like to find out where other born again Christians ARE in their spiritual walk. I like to ENCOURAGE ALL Christians to READ THE BIBLE MORE.
You, as an ex-Mormon, SURELY know that most Christians can be slammed in about an hour, because of their LACK OF KNOWLEDGE about the deep things of the bible.Do you ever draw on your past experiences as a Mormon, to warn Christians under your care now, about how they MIGHT need to be a little more mature, a little tougher on themselves?
Mormons are known to study their book of Mormon, and the bible, and they aren't sent out to go door to door because they DON"T arm themselves with answers for the protests from other non-Mormons. They go out FULLY armed.
Instead of ignoring me, because I ruffled your feathers, why not use that anger and go and TELL YOUR FLOCK who looks up to you, and respects you, (and I'm sure who doesn't know THIS side of you) to get closer to Jesus, by reading His LOVE LETTERS to them?
Hmmm??
I hope we are eventually on speaking terms, because it isn't my intent to alienate anyone.
You should look at why you got so angry at me, though. It didn't bother me. As a matter of fact, when you cool off, please tell me what it's like, being a PASTOR to a church!
Must be pretty draining sometimes, eh?
Have a good day. Let us love in deed and in truth. Let's always speak the truth.

1) It's redundant. Every Christian is "born again" through the power of the Holy Spirit. That goes without saying.
The terms "Christian" (in the true and traditional sense of the word) and "born again" are virtually synonymous. You can't be "born again" and not be a Christian, and you can't be a Christian without being "born again," Yes, but many who CALL themselves Christians ARE NOT born again.

2) Arrogant, self-proclaimed "born agains" like yourself. Unless your type qualifies someone as a Christian by some unknown and legalistic set of standards, they aren't one in your eyes.
It's not nice to judge others. What you think of as arrogant, may not be that at all. It grieves me no end to see what's happening in the body of Christ now! Christians, some Christians, are so WORLDLY that you can't tell them from a LOST person! Perhaps God placed some in the body of Christ to wake them up from a self-imposed slumber, and many who are awakened from a comfortable spiritual sleep get angry.
What you perceive as presumptuous superiority on my part, may be something else entirely. Why did you flame up like that?
The spiritual gift God gave me has never been an EASY one to use, but, it's a wonderful gift. When I use it, I expect backlash from people who might be not ALL THE LORD JESUS WANTS THEM TO BE.
Are we ALL that Jesus wants us to be? Every day?
We can be! And that's what's exciting! We have all we need, to be victorious over every temptation, and to live such a Christ centered life that lost people MARVEL at us, and WANT to know why we have the peace we do, in this sinful world.
Oh well, you have me on ignore, so.....

I'm a Christian who is absolutely disgusted
is that a righteous anger, or is that a sinful anger? Disgust?
Disgusted at what? If someone accused me of being dog thief, I'd just laugh at them. WHY?
Because I KNOW that I know that I know it isn't true.
and insulted by your response
Why? I wasn't insulting you.
and your ignorance.
Yes, I am ignorant of a lot of things, and I can admit it.

You want to know what the funny thing is? I'm also a Pastor of the Lutheran Church

Now since you obviously have the gift of spiritual discernment,
Wouldn't it be nice if ALL Christians who have that gift would USE IT?
Think of how white the garments Jesus gave us to wear would be.
We are to be unspotted, we are to abstain from every form of evil.
If more Christians would BE MORE DISCERNING, think of how
beautiful the present day body of Christ would be. Discernment is a good thing, and a skill that can be improved upon by all Christians, if they know the fine differences between GOOD and EVIL.
How many Christians have caused others to stumble, because of their carelessness in teaching themselves the difference between good and evil?Again, discernment is something that is to be rooted in the Word of God.
I hope more Christians practice it daily, no matter if they're mocked and ridiculed for doing so. Remember, Jesus said if you're made fun of for being a GOOD CHRISTIAN, REJOICE!!
My pastor said, if you're not standing out as a light in the world, if you don't look DIFFERENT, and sound and act differently than your lost friends and relatives, there's something deeply wrong with you, and you'd better get on your knees immediately and confess your sins to God. Humble yourself before God, and He will lift you up.
Come out from among them and be ye separate.
BE DISCERNING.
quote]

 

[Tzalam]

A troubling trend among Christians

Christianity is not a joke, it isn't a game.

It's a spiritual battle for your mind, for your testimony, for your
life. We wrestle against powers, principalities, against SPIRITUAL wickedness.....unseen, but, more real than you think.

If the devil can get a Christian to ruin their testimony for Jesus,
he will. Be vigilant in keeping your life pure and holy. Keep your mind and heart pure for God. Whatever it takes to be pure and holy, do it!
Do we all understand what Jesus means when He said to be not conformed to this world, but BE YE TRANSFORMED, BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND.
You are to be pleasing to GOD first. Above all.
"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all they heart, and with all thy sould, and with all thy mind, ad with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."Your enemy, the devil goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

The devil wasn't your enemy when you were lost.
Be separate from the lost of this world. Be a light in the darkness.
salt is good, but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might.

May I explain something about myself?
I care deeply about the Christians I meet, in person, and on the internet.
I have noticed a troubling trend among people who say they're Christians, and it's that they don't want to stand up for Jesus.
They don't want to read and memorize any Scripture.
They want to participate fully in many worldly things, and still be
thought of as good, pure Christians.
Many Christians tell dirty jokes, look at porn, let their children wear any kind of clothes, and act any old way, many Christians devote a huge chunk of their spare time to leisurely activities, instead of FIRST giving themselves to God, and the study of His Word, to prayer, fasting, praise, and being SERVANTS TO JESUS.
In short, many Christians now want all the glory without any of the inconvenience.
They want to read what they want, eat what they want, watch what they want on tv or at the movies, spend their money on whatever they feel like, Godly or not, and say what they want.
No, I'm not saying be legalistic. I'm soooo tired of that.
I am saying, if you're a born again Christian, aren't you supposed to LOOK AND SOUND DIFFERENT FROM YOUR LOST FRIENDS?
Aren't you?
The answer is yes, and it isn't always the most easy or popular thing to do, but, who are you most interested in pleasing?
OTHER MEN? OR GOD?
Look at it this way:
If you're married, aren't you supposed to behave differently than when you were single?
After you are married, do you continue to date other people? Not if you're born again.
When you're single, do you have sexual relations with someone?
Not if you're born again.
When you're born again, do you shrink away from talking about Jesus to others? Do you keep the gospel of Jesus to yourself, and let your lost co workers go to hell?
When you're born again, do you laugh at nasty jokes, dress like some slut, go to R rated movies, make illegal copies of software, come in late to work, and leave early, take advantage of others, gossip, pry into other's business, envy and lust after what others have, crush whoever gets in your way, when you have a "goal" to accomplish, ignore your children, ignore or belittle your spouse, lie, cheat, or steal?

I see this going on ALL THE TIME in the lives of people who, out of one side of their mouth, say,
"I'm a Christian!"
and out of the other side of their mouth, say,
"Jesus? Who's that? The bible? No, I don't know that verse, no time
to read or pray, sorry, too busy for that. "

I take seriously what Jesus said, in loving thy neighbor as thyself.
If I had a born again neighbor, and they saw I was living a sinful life, I'd WANT THEM to be blunt with me, and to help me by showing me the way.
That's an act of love.
Telling a person they are going to die and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire is an act of LOVE, especially if you tell them HOW TO ESCAPE THE COMING WRATH OF GOD.
So, if anyone thinks I'm too rough, remember, I'm not. I care, and I care deeply about you all. God knows I'm telling the truth!!

It's coming. Judgement Day is coming.

 

[Dave...]

"Election and Predestination are but the exercise of God's sovereignty
in the affairs of salvation, and all that we know about them is what has
been revealed to us in the Scriptures of Truth. The only reason why
anyone believes in Election is because he finds it clearly taught in
God's Word. No man, or number of men, ever originated this doctrine.
Like the teaching of Eternal Punishment, it conflicts with the dictates
of the carnal mind and is repugnant to the sentiments of the
unregenerate heart. And like the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the
miraculous birth of our Savior, the truth of Election must be received
with simple, unquestioning faith."

Arthur Pink

 

[Dave...]

"Many are very busy trying to construct a god for
themselves, such as they think God ought to be.

And it generally turns out that they fashion a god
like themselves, for that saying of the psalmist
concerning idols and 'idol makers' is still true,
"And those who make them are just like them,
as are all who trust in them." Psalm 135:18

These modern manufacturers of gods make
them blind because they are themselves blind,
and deaf because they are deaf, and dead
because they are spiritually dead.

Some quarrel with God as a Sovereign, and
no doctrine makes them grind their teeth like
the glorious truth of divine sovereignty.

They profess to want a god, but . . .
he must not be on a throne;
he must not be King;
he must not be absolute and universal Monarch.

He must do as his creatures tell him, not as
he himself wills. Their effeminate deity is not
worthy to be known by the name of God!"

(Spurgeon, "Joy in God" #2550, Romans 5:11)

 

[Drew]

Hello Dave:

I certainly think you have every right to believe in your vision of how Gods is sovereign. As you will recall from a thread in the theology forum, I found the underlying arguments to be pretty suspect (and I was not the only one).

I also realize that you have posted 2 quotes that are not your own. However, I think it is only fair to point to all readers that these quotes essentially do not contain an argument - they more or less argue by casting apersions upon the motives of those who dare question the sovereignty doctrine. Consider the following extracts from these quotes:

"...conflicts with the dictates of the carnal mind and is repugnant to the sentiments of the unregenerate heart"

"These modern manufacturers of gods make them blind because they are themselves blind, and deaf because they are deaf, and dead because they are spiritually dead"

Surely we can do better than this - surely we can have a constructive debate without essentially descending to "groin shots" (to steal a phrase from another poster).

Now I am sure that you honestly believe that the doctrine of "100 % Divine Sovereignty at the level of the individual event" is correct. However, I think you would serve your cause better if you would actually construct an argument rather than try to make your case by suggesting (through the quotes you have provided) that those who believe otherwise are "blind" or "spiritually dead" or "effeminate".

 

[Dave...]

(J. C. Philpot, "Prevailing Pleas" 1865)

"Son of man, these leaders have set up idols
in their hearts! They have embraced things
that lead them into sin." Ezekiel 14:3

An idol is an idol, whether worshiped inwardly
in heart, or adorned outwardly by the knee.

Therefore, give the people of Israel this message
from the Sovereign Lord: "Repent and turn away from
your idols, and stop all your loathsome practices. I,
the Lord, will punish all those, both Israelites and
foreigners, who reject Me and set up idols in their
hearts, so that they fall into sin." Ezekiel 14:6-7

 

[Dave...]

Isaiah 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

46:11
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

46:12
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

46:13
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.


More scripture. http://www.eschatology.com/sovereignty.html

 

[Dave...]

A short read so you know where i'm coming from.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... necty.html

Peace