Let's not reinvent the wheel. I dealt with that
HERE Please read and RESPOND this time.
DRS81 said:
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Pick any scripture that you want to prove that soul sleep is false and let's discuss.
In a debate/discussion it does not work that way. Your position is the affirmative, meaning that you are making a case for the existence of soul sleep, Therefore, it is your obligation to make your point for existence of that doctrine, not mine to counter, and have you bat back and forth. Further, because we are both attempting to use Scripture as our source for a doctrine, it is necessary to present Scripture in its context, not cobbling fragments from this verse and that in order to come to base our doctrine.
For example, beginning with the phrase, "And Judas went out and hung himself..." it is possible for someone to "justify suicide". Of course, that is preposterous! But the level of absurdity in doing that serves as a cogent example of the danger of stringing unrelated Scriptures together. That is because while all Scripture is God-breathed, not all Scripture is the same in its purpose. Therefore it is impossible to make the Psalms to be the same as Romans in what the different books teach.
In the same manner, we have to be extra careful when we take things from the Apocalypse, or the Revelation of the Apostle John. That entire book, excepting for the beginning is a book about things to come. Nothing in the "meat" of the book has happened, nor is it a book of doctrine such as Hebrews and the Epistles of Paul. Does that make sense?
As a next step in Bible study about a particular doctrine, we should also explore the historical beliefs of the Jews, and the original languages of both the OT and the NT if we are not able to come to make a definitive statement about the usage of the entire passage supporting the establishment of a particular doctrine.
Just a clear study of the scriptures. The eyes, ears, brain, arms and legs are all connected to our bodies, and our bodies will be resurrected at the first resurrection. Don't you need eyes, ears, a brain, arms and legs to be in relationship with Jesus in heaven? There is only one resurrection for your body and soul, and that's the first resurrection. The first resurrection is biblical, spirit ghosts are not. The third heaven where Jesus resides right now is not reserved for human spirits. It is only reserved for the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to heal, convict and obtain sovereignty over the world. Nothing more.
Eccl 12:7 and
Rev 20:4-6 does not say that after you die you automatically spring to life. No, it's saying they come to life specifically after the first resurrection and the great white throne. This is your time line. The Bible gives us a time line of when this occurs, but everybody seems to want to ignore this.
Eccl 12:7 is referring to your spirit. Your spirit is the breath of God, it is
breath. It is not ghostly figures walking around like Hollywood movies portray it. God is not saying that when you die you are walking around the third heaven as breath, that's ludicrous. Breath is a substance FROM GOD that gave your soul and body life! Without your body, breath does not exist.
Eccl 12:7 is simply God taking back what is his, and that is HIS breath given to us as a gift. If people say you go straight to heaven after you die then wouldn't you need a brain to talk to Jesus? Wouldn't you need arms and legs to run and hug Jesus?? Wouldn't you need eyes and ears to SEE and HEAR Jesus! You need a brain, eyes, ears, arms and legs to do these things. And our brain, eyes, ears, arms and legs are connected to our body which will be resurrected at the first resurrection.
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Here are the Scriptures you cite in their context:
Ecclesiastes 12: 5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. 10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd
Revelation 12:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
So the first question I ask is "Is the entire passage discussing anything about soul sleep, or is it something else?"
Second, I ask "Do the 166 words that you wrote about '
Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." have to do with anything that is in the context of those 19 words of
Ecclesiastes 12:7, or did you add that to the Scripture because you believe the doctrine of 'soul sleep'?"
'
Rev 20:4-6 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead
did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Are you aware that this a vision of what happens to martyrs for Jesus, and is not a universal statement?
Are you also aware that both of these Scriptures are temporal items. meaning that these things happen AFTER something else comes first?
So let me restate this:
It is your obligation to first make the affirmative statement, "I believe in soul sleep, and here is my proofs from Scripture in its context...". After doing that, then can discuss the reasons why the other makes or does not make the case for his position.
In doing this, I know before hand that only Holy spirit can change your belief, and no matter what sorts of rhetoric I use, you will not change your mind on your belief. Therefore in my presentation, I will not attempt to belittle nor badger you top come to my position, OK?
BTW on some forums it is considered to respond to a question with merely a hyperlink. I am wondering why you merely re-quoted something which I already dealt with earlier. Could you please explain that?
All I asked for you to provide was Scripture references in context to support your position. Is it your position that you are unwilling to do that, or is it that you are unable to do that?